trinityroyal

Well-Known Member
TM, from all I know about Duckie, she seems to be a good-hearted and kind girl. She's also at that dreaded pre-teen stage. I'm dealing with a fair dose of the same from easy child as the hormonal storms begin.

I would take a two-pronged approach of: 1) appealing to her better nature and 2) following up with hard line consequences. Here's what I mean:

1) The better nature:
Explain that being late, keeping other people waiting, not taking proper care of her things etc. is disrespectful and arrogant. It shows a complete disregard for other people and their time, money and hard work. Perhaps provide an example she can relate to, such as your helping yourself to a bunch of craft supplies that she had just finished laying out for a project, or your dawdling when taking her to dance class resulting in her being late and missing half of it.

2) The hard line consequences
If she's dawdling and will make you late for something, leave without her. Depending on whether it's feasible or not, make her either get to her activity on her own or miss out.
For things like family meals, if she's not at the table and everyone else is ready, start without her. Explain that the rest of you should not be punished by having to eat cold food just because she couldn't be on time.
Can she pay for (or work off) the cost of replacing damaged things, e.g. the gas required for you to get her a new epipen, or the replacement charge for the new epipen? Personally I would go with both.

I think sometimes our little wonders have to be reminded that they're not the centre of the universe, and no the sun does not shine out of their nether regions.
 

tiredmommy

Well-Known Member
TRinity~ She is a good kid, mostly. She just saves all the ick for at home. We are making her pay for the epipen as that follows our belief that natural consequences work best. Now if she would realize that too.
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
She is a good kid, mostly. She just saves all the ick for at home
Actually, THAT part is... typical teen.
Someone said once that teens come home and "put on their 2-year-old sleepers". They hold it together "out there" and them come home and crash.

It's just... more "complex" with a difficult child kid.
 

tiredmommy

Well-Known Member
Well, she admitted last night that she has started not to sleep very well so we will do some compressions every day until she can unwind a bit. Hopefully it takes the edge off.
 

susiestar

Roll With It
In some ways of course this is passive aggressive behavior. The adhd traits, ODD traits and sensory issues are contributing, I am sure.

Wiz used to pull this koi. When we had to be somewhere, like school, I would tell him that we were leaving at 7:00 or whatever time. Often I used odd tmes, like 7:13 or 9:32 or whatever. Why? It wasn't USUAL. If you are leaving at five, then you often will not check the clock as often because you are sure you will be able to tell what that is, how much time has passed and how close to that time you are with-o looking at the clock. If it is a nonstandard time, the clock must be checked more often because you won't subconsciously think that you just know what time it is. One of the tricks to using this is to change the time fairly regularly.

I often told Wiz that at X time we were leaving and I didn't care if he was dressed or not, he WAS leaving. At that point I could still drag him to the car and put him in it, and he knew it.

Have you used timers/alarms? We found they worked on Wiz esp because he HATED the way the alarm sounded. If he got the task finished, he could turn off the timer with-o hearing it. At times I made it a speed race, using a stop watch. Instead of comparing him to J and T, I kept a record of his times and challenged him to beat his time. No rewards were used except trying to beat himself.

The Occupational Therapist (OT) suggested that instead of timing "wash the dishes" as a whole, timing each separate task, like brushing teeth, doing hair, makeup, showering, etc...(I once gave Wiz a week's worth of the guy things and made him add up the amt he spent on each part for the week, etc.... and then compare it to my log for those things. He did NOT like that I was faster, and it motivated him to move faster.

How does Duckiie feel about being late to something that you take her to? What if you worked as slowly as you could and made her late? Sure activities are important, but what if she missed half or more because you took a long time to get ready? While it often seems rather juvenile, it can be helpful to adopt their mannerisms to let them experience how inconsiderate/mean this is. yes, MEAN. Her dawdling means you are incredibly stressed, people must wait on her to start, etc... Don't do the slow motion stuff just once, after she has realzed how frustrating it is and she apologizes and begs you to stop, do it on a random basis and don't let on that you are 'doing' anything.

Is there a relative, classmate or someone in her life that she cannot stand who is late to things? My kids have changed behaviors when they realized that it was something they hated when gfgbro would do them.

What sensory things does she loathe? Certain types of music or artists, scents etc...? Tell her that if she isn't ready, hasn't started, is going in 'so slow you might as well be in reverse" as she does something, then you will play music/sounds she cannot stand, light a candle she hates, burn something, turn off the hot water, put ice cubes in her shoes (sealed in a ziplock), etc... She can avoid these things by gong at a normal pace. When she starts to slow down, rev it up.

I would start with either one of those air horns or a security alarm keychain that emits a very high pitch when you push a button. She slows down, you blast the alarm, it jolts her adrenaline and she doesn't like it the sounds, so she will work to make it stop.

My child might also find his/her wardrobe significantly smaller as I removed choices and items that needed buttoning or some amount of time to put on. Sweatshirts, tshirts, sweat pants knit pants and NOT ones she loves. Her other clothing would be in a locked closet at home, and if she was working at reg speed for a few days I would maybe return one outfit or fave items at a time. I would remove them if she reverted. Why reduce her wardrobe? Seems to me that having too many choices will only slow you down, Know what I mean?? All those buttons, zippers, snaps, etc... clearly are too difficult because it takes her sooooo long to get ready. What a sweet, nice mommy to go through all that trouble to make sure baby girl can get dressed in a timely manner so that she doesn't miss out on her education!! (and yes, I probably WOULD tell J that I was trying to be nice because clearly she is overwhelmed, Know what I mean??)

You may find resources for this by reading the ads in various ADHD magazines. they usually have various watches, timers, etc... and ways to use them to help with problems than you might think.

I hope something I suggested is helpful.
 

tiredmommy

Well-Known Member
Liahona~ Believe me, if not for privacy reasons, I would videotape her and post it. It would be funny if it weren't being inflicted upon me. She gets this most defiant look on her face and staring right at you; she stands there with her right hand on the railing and her left foot hovering over the next stair. And she waits, staring at you, eyes boring into you, challenging you.

Susie~ I actually have tried your suggestions before (except making her late by acting like her) and they haven't worked. I think it's because, mostly, the problem is rooted in her ODD. As in, she is doing it purposely as a way of acting out. Timers infuriate her and set off rages. She blows through deadlines whether they are rounded or to the minute. I have broken down tasks. Tried contracts. Had discussions on the importance of urgency and promptness. I have streamlined processes. You get the idea.
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
TM... this is JMO, but rooted in difficult child's experience.
ODD and/or severe "procrastinitus" (husband's phrase) so often have their root in overload.
She loves everything she is involved in, doesn't want to give anything up, but... the combination may be more than she can really handle... and so she "pushes back" in subtle ways (not so subtle really, but the message is subtle)... and not really pushing back at you so much as pushing back at life.
 

tiredmommy

Well-Known Member
Oh, she definitely gets overwhelmed. She has poor time management so, while it would certainly be possible for a typical 12 year to take on her activities, she struggles. She also tends to be a bit on the arrogant/conceited side so resists any attempt to help her management her time more effectively. It's as if she feels the world should and will change for her because she's just that awesome.
 

busywend

Well-Known Member
Oh my TM.....she is going to be having you brought to your knees over the next few years. That last sentence of your sent shivers up my spine. You and husband (you mostly....more the mom with girls) need to start strategizing on how to react to things up and coming. I suspect you will look back on the foot hover and wish for it....sorry hon....it is going to suck!
 
S

Signorina

Guest
PBI, I don't usually post here and I have no expertise is any disorders, but do have lots of in real life experience with balky adolescents - so fwiw... (forgive my intrusion)

I found that trying to give my kids a taste of their own medicine usually backfired for me. The same was true of taking away things they loved or unrelated privileges in an effort to motivate them. They never really made the correlation between my punishment and their own behavior unless they were directly related. So yes, take away the phone if they misuse the phone or talk on the phone in lieu of homework. But don't take away the phone or the toys because they didn't set the table...because at that age they just didn't connect the dots in a meaningful way. My kids just saw it as being an unfairly punitive action on my part and then we would get into this cycle of me being more punitive (now the phone AND the skateboard) and them being miserable and being less willing to cooperate and it became a never ending power struggle. And trying to make them more miserable in hopes that it would make the lightbulb go off - didn't make the lightbulb go off. It just made us all more miserable. They were miserable and blamed me, I was frustrated and fed up and growing hopeless that these kids would ever "get it". And as I look back, I realize they truly didn't get it.

We had the late for practice issue with baseball. A lot. My kids were never great with time and always underestimated the time to start getting ready so that we could get out of the house on time. And usually by the time we got into the car, we were all ready late, I was STEAMING, they were trying to tie shoes and forgetting their mitt and then it was an awkward transition to the field which didn't help matters. And refusing to take him after a certain time didn't lead to the natural consequences we hoped, it just made my boy and baseball less joyous and more drudgery..

What always helped my kids (and still does) were written instructions. I made schedules with their input and posted them. And when they didn't fall in line with the schedule, and I reminded them - it was the schedule that actually pointed out the discrepancy. "Schedule says" not "Mom says". I know it sounds weird, but it took the pressure off of me. My kids are practically adults now and I posted a Christmas eve/day schedule on the fridge with duties (4-5 set the table), reminders (6pm leave for church) and the fun stuff (9 am open presents)..."schedule said" we were going to be on the road to grandma's by 11 and we were! Even now, I could tell my kids to salt the driveway or set the table or grab their clothes out of the dryer with limited success. But if I post a note on the fridge - no problem. Honestly, I don't think they are balky to annoy us - even though it does... I think they are balky because that's the way it is. And this generation has been raised on multi-tasking. I think they honestly over-estimate their ability to do it all and as adolescents they don't have the maturity to admit it or deal with it so it's a perfect storm of being difficult and unreliable.

Gosh, I am rambling. Hope it made sense!
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
Sig - you raise a good point.
Mine are teens now, too, and...
Any time the message can come in a different form than "Mom Says"... works better.

Doctor says. Teacher says. Schedule says. Newspaper says.

Literally... anything or anyone but Mom!

We reached a compromise.
Mine have promised to not tune out my txt msgs... and so far (most of a year) it's working.
Isn't that the same? Nope. They aren't listening to me, they are listening to their txt msg.
 

trinityroyal

Well-Known Member
Sig, you raise a REALLY good point about the written instructions. They've become so ingrained in our lives around here that I completely forgot about them as a strategy.

When difficult child was really giving us the gears, one of his psychiatrists suggested that I stop talking and start writing. If I told difficult child something, he would ignore it. But writing was like magic. I could stand at the kitchen counter right in front of difficult child, write out a checklist, post it on the wall and then point to it. All of a sudden, he would comply. He would fuss. If he really disliked an item on his list he would put an X in the check box instead of a check mark. If he hated the item, he would go as far as to scribble it out. But every single item on the list got done.

At one point, our house was practically wallpapered in checklists and schedules and rules charts. But they worked.

TM, YMMV but it may be worth a go.
 
L

Liahona

Guest
I didn't mean for you to post the video. difficult child 1 is vey self consious and just the act of recording it will change his behavior. And it might be good blackmail material down the road.
 

susiestar

Roll With It
My dad HATES to be late. Not so much because you miss things as because people turn and look at you as you walk in late. He will not eat at one of my fave restaurants because is has very little seating (is in an old train car turned into a diner) and people just stand at the door waiting for seats. He won't eat if someone is standing there watching him. Not ever for any reason.

As I kid I learned how to use this. Bro and I were SILENT on Sunday mornings. If we fought or played loudly and woke Dad us, we had to go to mass. We were in Catholic school and felt one mass a week was more than plenty. Dad wasn't exactly a practicing Catholic, though we were raised Catholic because his mom would have had a stroke if we were not (our mom isn't/wasn't Catholic). My folks had it worked out that mom did mornings on Sat and Dad did them on Sun. So Sun am? SILENCE until at least ten forty five. Dad needed at least fifteen min to get ready and it took five min to get to church. If the processional music was playing when he hit the doors, we turned and left. With last mass at eleven, we were quiet no matter WHAT until ten forty five because he wouldn't even bother to get ready then. I was better at quiet than bro, and would threaten to be loud if he didn't do what I wanted (he hated mass, I merely thought it was boring).

If I really wanted to do something, and my dad was involved, I got my koi together and his too if needed. Otherwise, chances were I would miss it because if we were late it was not happening.

in my opinion you need to start some of this with her. If she is late for anything, she doesn't go. Period. Except school. Late for school? make mom late for work or something mom values? You lose two things that you really like or that really matter. As she fusses about letting a team down or missing something, you say, well, if you didn't make me late then you would go, wouldn't you?

It isn't going to be easy or fun. She is going to have more fits than you want to deal with. But the ONLY way to get this under control is to start doing what I recommend or something similar. Figure out her currency, what really MATTERS to her, and use it. This is a life lesson because no boss is EVER going to put up with this. Maybe with fewer things to do she will cope better and be less bullheaded. Just refuse to take her if she won't be on time, period. And if she isn't' on time for the bare min of school and things that would make you late? Take away what she really truly loves until she gets the point.

Often the hardest part of parenting is out-stubborning someone you love so much so that they can stop shooting themselves in their feet.

I do thnk if you can use a written checklist or text message or other way, it is a good idea. I think you need to combine that with an absolute refusal to be late to the extra things. By combining them, maybe you will get somewhere. If just a list worked, that is awesome. But there needs to be some way to make her pay attention to the things that matter to you. Whatever method you choose will not be easy. Some of this is partly being an only child, in my opinion. When you have more than one child, each child hears "just do it now or you won' get to because this X of your sibs is going to happen NOW whether you like it or not" and when you only have one child you let a lot of things slide that with two or more kids you just cannot let slide. It is what it is and that isn't good or bad. THere are benefits to only having one child rather than two or three also. You just have to figure out how to make natural consequences work.

personally? what would happen if you just left Duckie at home one day to figure out how to walk to school and explain her absence to the school with-o you to tell them she is late or whatever? I know for a FACT that my mother would drive off and leave me if I made her late on a reg basis. She would figure if I was old enough to make the choice to not get ready then I was old enough to make the choice to explain my actions to the school, to get myself there (pay a taxi with my own money if I called one - no way would I get paid back for that in this lifetime or any other, not with my folks!), or to call in and tell them why I am not coming and no, she would not call and explain my absence or excuse it later either. I was eight or nine when she started this, and it did change how I acted. Considering I had to cross one of the busiest intersections in all of Cincinnati to get to school, and that if she left me at home I had to walk, it took some courage on her part the first couple of times. it did get through to me like nothing else though.

She can only make you late if you allow it. she can make HERSELF late, and in my opinion if she is late you should just refuse to take her. Let her explain it to her team, it isn't your problem to explain. Put the time to leave down on paper, a list of what she needs to do and when to start to get ready, and if she isn't ready to leave? You don't take her. period. Do the same for mornings. Put up the list, with times to do things, and if she isn't ready to leave? Well, not your problem. You go to work. she can call school and tell them she won't be in, she can tell htem she will be late. she can pay a taxi with her own money or walk or see if a friend can give her a ride, or she can stay home and deal with an unexcused absence. A few unexcused absences will not keep her out of all good colleges (none will care if she had unexcused absences before high school, or often even then. I knwo I had huge scholarships and they never once looked at my attendance records, ditto Wiz a few yrs ago and a friend's kid last year) will not ruin her education, and just might teach ehr something about being on time.

in my opinion the second she starts that super slow down the stairs thing, i would go get in the car and drive off. maybe that is why my kids didn't try that one, cause they tried plenty of other stuff. Even J's friend who does that koi to her mom never pulled it on me. I saw it once, said "Bye, we are gone, I dont' play with this nonsense" and I walked out. She was out of the house before I got to my car and was shocked that I refused to let her in until she apologized to her mother and to me. just speeding up isn't an apology and I know her mom never made her apologize for anything. I don't play that game and she knew it (she was the troublemaker in my girl scout troop until she learned that the rest of us would go and have fun while she refused or pouted or cried and we didn't stop and 'poor baby, oh, I was so mean to you" when we saw her acting upset.

I might, maybe, every second or fifth time, go back and see if she was ready after I went around the block, but if she wasn't standing outside super apologetic and ready to leave after I went around the block? I would leave and not go back to give her a ride. Sure, she will be angry and upset, but you are already angry and upset. Why should her actions dictate that you be that way? let them mean that SHE is that way if she wants to be.

Days seh pulls that slow koi, she would be going home and doing chores instead of after school activities also. in my opinion that IS a natural consequence. If you cannot get ready for school on time, you cannot go to after school stuff, period. Instead, that 'free time' can be used for chores because you make ME so late and you cost me so much energy that I simply cannot do the things I usually do. So you have to make up that energy by doing my chores. This, in fact, is pure love and logic and it WORKS. Esp if you lie on the couch moaning about how exhausted you are and you can't "insert chore here".

I strongly recommend getting a copy of Parenting Your Teen With Love and Logic and reading it fast and often. You are going to NEED it cause it doesn't get easier from here for a long time.
 

susiestar

Roll With It
My other thought is to tell her that if she is late to any activity because this idiotic slowness that is done jsut to upset you for three times in a row or six times in the total activity or any one school quarter, she will not be enrolled in that activity ever again. At such time as her behavior is not a problem and she is not late to anything or giving you any other substantial problems, you may, at your whim, consider allowing her to partake in that activity again. Regardless of how much acting, singing, playing an instrument or whatever will benefit her life, it isn't worth shortening yours from the stress of trying to get her ready, and you will take her slowness to mean she does not care to do the activity ever again, so you will be nice enough to not make her say it, you will just withdraw her from the activity from that day forward.

When she pulls the slow koi on the stairs, do NOT NOT NOT NOT NOTNOTNOTNOTNOT look at her. Go away, where she cannot see that you are bothered by this. One of the few things that will help you survive her teens is to NEVER NEVER NEVER let her know that she is bugging you. If she gets no payoff, and you go start to do something you enjoy, it takes ALL of the fun/benefit/reward away from her. Sure, it still might take her ten min to get down six stairs, but you can go have a cup of tea and a cookie and read a book. Heck, if it is her activity and you don't have to go somewhere, go draw a hot bath and soak for a half hour or an hour. She clearly doesn't care if she gets there on time, so take your time and enjoy this little gift of free time she is giving you. Let the worry over if she will be late be HER PROBLEM and your ENJOYMENT. The more fun you have as she pulls this koi, the less payoff she gets.

When you stand there and meet her eyes as she pulls this, you GIVE IN and give the reward she wants. She is controlling you, which si what she wants. Let her know that 3 in a row, or six in 9 weeks means no more and then stop engaging in the battle. Go enjoy something, assume she doesn't want to go and do what YOU want. Or else leave and go to what you want/need Occupational Therapist (OT) do.

Passive aggressive doesn't work if no one realizes you are doing it. Trust me, I know. Often the only control I had as a kid was by being passive aggressive. When no one noticed? I gave up on that method. My mom was a genius at not noticing any of it, and it wasn't easy on her, trust me.

Go get a cup of tea or coffee, a book, a video and start to ENJOY them when she pulls this koi. Be HAPPY about not having to take her wherever and having a bit of a break to yourself. Refuse to notice that she is working to upset you, and keep track of the times seh gives you these breaks. Use them to tell you when she truly wants to stop doing something, and I bet this will stop.

The more seh knows she upsets you, the more she will do it.
 
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