The double and sometimes triple lives of my difficult child
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mrsammler
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On the general topic of "the double and sometimes triple lives of our difficult children," I too experienced this with my difficult child nephew and his expectation that, after yet another episode of his lousy behavior (2-3 times per week, typically), all of us should simply hit "reset" and engage with him as if the last episode had never happened. In other words, he'd be a total difficult child one night (a rage, an episode of sharp conflict, him coming home drunk or high or drugged, etc) and then expect everyone to just carry on with him as if it had never happened the next day--i.e., he'd want to play chess with me, or try to engage me in "normal," cheery conversation, or talk about a movie he'd seen, or whatever. I finally "called him out" on this one day, telling him that I couldn't engage with him as if nothing had happened without a conversation about what had happened, what he had done and what he was going to do to make it right (he NEVER apologized--just expected you to "get over it" and go on as before), and that I was tired of what I called his "duality of personality"--i.e., calling me every name in the book, raging, etc, and then expecting me to interact with him "normally" (as if he were a easy child) the next day. (He had been "trained" to expect this by his mother's never-ending habit of just, figuratively speaking, "hitting re-set" and giving him a fresh start after every negative behavior/episode.) I told him that I could no longer tell which was the "real" Stan (not his real name, but I'll use it from now on, for simplicity's sake)--the hate-filled raging amoral ***hole or the "normal" easy child-like kid he expected me to regard him as the next day, or even an hour or two later, and that I suspected that the "real" Stan was the former and not the latter, and because of that, I was no longer going to engage with him when he feigned "niceness" or expected normal relations with me until he started actually addressing his behavior (i.e., acknowledging how awful it was and apologizing for it) before expecting a return to normal interaction with him.
His reply? A smug declaration that "People are complicated" and refusal to address or apologize for his bad behaviors. After that, I refused to play chess with him (previously a major pastime between us) or interact with him jovially or convivially, as I did with his younger brother--I simply couldn't do it, and told him so, without an apology from him, and an acknowledgment of wrongdoing and a promise to do better, just as I would expect from anyone else before being able to resume normal friendly relations.
What do the rest of you do about this? How do you handle "returning to normal" with a difficult child whose lousy behaviors just keep happening and for which he/she never apologizes? Speaking for myself, this was a deal-breaker in terms of interacting in a friendly way with him. After that conversation, I pretty much ignored him, almost never spoke to him, except when I had to deal with his vile misbehaviors, rages, etc.
His reply? A smug declaration that "People are complicated" and refusal to address or apologize for his bad behaviors. After that, I refused to play chess with him (previously a major pastime between us) or interact with him jovially or convivially, as I did with his younger brother--I simply couldn't do it, and told him so, without an apology from him, and an acknowledgment of wrongdoing and a promise to do better, just as I would expect from anyone else before being able to resume normal friendly relations.
What do the rest of you do about this? How do you handle "returning to normal" with a difficult child whose lousy behaviors just keep happening and for which he/she never apologizes? Speaking for myself, this was a deal-breaker in terms of interacting in a friendly way with him. After that conversation, I pretty much ignored him, almost never spoke to him, except when I had to deal with his vile misbehaviors, rages, etc.
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toughlovin
Guest
I would definitely join SA... although I am trying to be in recovery... but relapsing now and then!!!
As far as MrSammlers question.... I guess my reaction was to just try to go on.... but once you lose trust it takes a lot longer than a reset to regain it so I would try to go on and be wary very wary.... now that he is out of the house and much has happened and he is not living here he no longer has that attitude. We now have limits and we are not accepting "reset" and if he gets nasty to me then I just ignore him and don't respond... but I will say this has not happened in person recently at all. Of course I don't see him very often.
As to the earlier question my difficult child did not do the "oh poor me you think I am a screw up" spchiel... but he certainly tried to deflect things back on to me in various ways. And you are right it is total manipulation. He is a master at that.
The one that used to get me when we would get into was how I would never know my grandchildren and we would have no relationship. He does not have any children at this point so that was a total future prediction and him just trying to hurt me. It worked the first couple of times, I was hurt and I would go off and cry...... but I came to realize that was what he wanted and I needed to let it go and stop taking his **** personally.
So the last time he said that to me I said something like "You may hate me forever and I can live with that. However I will always love you and have to do what I have to do". That finally became my response because it is the truth....and truth is I can live with him hating me forever too. Fact is he doesn't hate me I don't think... and I think he knows I love him and in the end that may be helpful to him at some point.
As far as MrSammlers question.... I guess my reaction was to just try to go on.... but once you lose trust it takes a lot longer than a reset to regain it so I would try to go on and be wary very wary.... now that he is out of the house and much has happened and he is not living here he no longer has that attitude. We now have limits and we are not accepting "reset" and if he gets nasty to me then I just ignore him and don't respond... but I will say this has not happened in person recently at all. Of course I don't see him very often.
As to the earlier question my difficult child did not do the "oh poor me you think I am a screw up" spchiel... but he certainly tried to deflect things back on to me in various ways. And you are right it is total manipulation. He is a master at that.
The one that used to get me when we would get into was how I would never know my grandchildren and we would have no relationship. He does not have any children at this point so that was a total future prediction and him just trying to hurt me. It worked the first couple of times, I was hurt and I would go off and cry...... but I came to realize that was what he wanted and I needed to let it go and stop taking his **** personally.
So the last time he said that to me I said something like "You may hate me forever and I can live with that. However I will always love you and have to do what I have to do". That finally became my response because it is the truth....and truth is I can live with him hating me forever too. Fact is he doesn't hate me I don't think... and I think he knows I love him and in the end that may be helpful to him at some point.
keista
New Member
Mrsammler, I think this certainly deserves a new thread of it's own, but am compelled to make a comment.
As far as the 'returning to normal' for me it is a necessity, but also, my difficult child DOES apologize, and does to a certain degree discuss her behavior/issues. The latter is something we're working on even more because she does not like to face ANY of her negative feelings.
I can TOTALLY understand your feelings and position though. Essentially loss of your companionship is a natural consequence for him. I'm guessing it wasn't enough of a consequence to put a dent in him. Sorry.
This reminded me of a 16y/o I 'fostered' temporarily. It wasn't regarding huge difficult child issues, more 'annoying' behavior/habits that I was trying to help the kid break/deal with. His exact response was "That's just me" EXCUSE ME? My response: "You are ONLY 16 how long exactly have you struggled with these issues and have FINALLY come to the conclusion that there is NOTHING you can do about them? 6 months? NO, NOT the right answer!" Luckily, he did 'work' with me after that.
As far as the 'returning to normal' for me it is a necessity, but also, my difficult child DOES apologize, and does to a certain degree discuss her behavior/issues. The latter is something we're working on even more because she does not like to face ANY of her negative feelings.
I can TOTALLY understand your feelings and position though. Essentially loss of your companionship is a natural consequence for him. I'm guessing it wasn't enough of a consequence to put a dent in him. Sorry.
dashcat
Member
Mr. Sam,
I don't exactly hit reset, but I do continue to interact with my difficult child in a positive way....within certain limitations. My problem with her though, is not very often disrespectful language to my face. She definately wants to be on my good side, so -in my presence, she's a perfect angel. HOWEVER, as this thread title indicates, there is much beneath the surface.
I do address the things that she does that she knows I find out about. For example, when she lied about using her dad's car to go to the mall and, in fact, drove 30 miles to pick up a stranger she'd met online and then returned to her dad's (he was away for the night) with said stranger, I took away her house key and told her she would not be using my car for a very long time - if ever. She knows she can only come here when I am home, and she is not to have anyone here if she happens to be staying with me and I have plans for the evening. Her dad did ... nothing.
When she smoked in my garage this winter, I reminded her that the smoking area here is the side porch and i do not care how cold it is. I also told her if she smoked anywhere on the premises other than that area, she would either have to quit smoking or quit visiting. She never did it again.
When she disappeared without a note or explaination when I went to her dad's to pick her up for a movie (telling her dad many lies when she did return home), I left exactly one message on her voice mail (when I arrived and she was not there). It took her a MONTH to call me. When she did, she said she missed me and I called her back and said I missed her too. She invited me over the next day, and we did not speak of the time that had passed or why she'd done what she had done.
When she pulled something similar a month later, I told her she had used the "get out of jail free" card and asked for an explanation. I told her I would call her on her behavior when it comes to keeping her promises with me and I do ... but after I have my say, I drop it and let it go.
Granted, I do not live with her nor am I dealing with the kind of in your face disrespect your nephew is dishing out, but I do believe in a combination of natural consquences (the house key and the car), speaking your peace but then letting it go.
Dash
I don't exactly hit reset, but I do continue to interact with my difficult child in a positive way....within certain limitations. My problem with her though, is not very often disrespectful language to my face. She definately wants to be on my good side, so -in my presence, she's a perfect angel. HOWEVER, as this thread title indicates, there is much beneath the surface.
I do address the things that she does that she knows I find out about. For example, when she lied about using her dad's car to go to the mall and, in fact, drove 30 miles to pick up a stranger she'd met online and then returned to her dad's (he was away for the night) with said stranger, I took away her house key and told her she would not be using my car for a very long time - if ever. She knows she can only come here when I am home, and she is not to have anyone here if she happens to be staying with me and I have plans for the evening. Her dad did ... nothing.
When she smoked in my garage this winter, I reminded her that the smoking area here is the side porch and i do not care how cold it is. I also told her if she smoked anywhere on the premises other than that area, she would either have to quit smoking or quit visiting. She never did it again.
When she disappeared without a note or explaination when I went to her dad's to pick her up for a movie (telling her dad many lies when she did return home), I left exactly one message on her voice mail (when I arrived and she was not there). It took her a MONTH to call me. When she did, she said she missed me and I called her back and said I missed her too. She invited me over the next day, and we did not speak of the time that had passed or why she'd done what she had done.
When she pulled something similar a month later, I told her she had used the "get out of jail free" card and asked for an explanation. I told her I would call her on her behavior when it comes to keeping her promises with me and I do ... but after I have my say, I drop it and let it go.
Granted, I do not live with her nor am I dealing with the kind of in your face disrespect your nephew is dishing out, but I do believe in a combination of natural consquences (the house key and the car), speaking your peace but then letting it go.
Dash
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mrsammler
Guest
Actually, it "worked" for me because once I laid it down for him--i.e., no apology or acknowledgement of wrongdoing or sincere resolve to change = you no longer have a loving, supportive uncle; instead you have an in-house bouncer who will not interact with you except to restrain you or, if necessary, kick your !@# in self-defense if you take me on. He never stole from me, lied to me (because I simply wouldn't engage him in conversation anymore--would literally leave the dinner table when he sat down to it), or tried to mess with me after that, although he certainly kept it up (to the extent that I would tolerate it, which would've been zero without his mother's insistence on indulging him) with his mother and brother. I am certain that if his mother had adopted my policy with him--i.e., zero tolerance and zero willingness to "re-set" without significant and accounatable negotiation--we might've actually made some headway with him, rather than merely restraining him and patiently awaiting his 18th birthday.
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mrsammler
Guest
We can differ amicably on this. I'm a big believer in letting NOTHING go until it has been sorted out, talked about, apologized for, and assurances given that it won't happen again. Absent that, I suspend the relationship until "repair" has taken place. Then again, I admit that I'm an uncle of a difficult child, not a parent. I acknowledge the difference, although I'm not sure I'd be any different with a difficult child child.
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toughlovin
Guest
I think there is a difference between an uncle and a parent in a situation like this. I definitely believe in consequences and making the difficult child accountable for their actions. However at least to me it is important for my difficult child to know I love him no matter what although i sometimes hate the things that he does. So your approach I think makes sense as an uncle, to me as mother would be very rejecting of him as a person and i don't want to do that. My difficult child anyway clearly already has some major self esteem issues as well as adoption issues, and i don't think it would help him get anything to feel me reject him... in fact I think that would make things worse. On the other hand it does not mean just accepting anything he does to me or that I should hit reset every time says he is sorry.... bottom line is I don't trust my difficult child at all, and so there are many things I won't do because of my lack of trust.... for example I want nothing to do with helping him buy a car because I do not trust him to drive responsibly. Even if heh came to me and very seriously told me he gets it, he is totally sober, he is changing his life, that in and of itself would not make me trust him..... no he will have to earn my trust and that will take a long time and i don't know if it will ever happen.
