The patience of a saint

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
Malika - there aren't many of us in life that come thru truly "unscathed".... It will be a good thing if you can just get J to the point of a productive, socially acceptable adult with a life of his own - and hopefully, still have a good relationship with you...

I had to re-evaluate my choice of words, when it came to my own thoughts about raising a difficult child. Because I was getting hung up on my own words and the ideas and pictures that I internalized with those words. Know what I mean?? Especially for those of us who love words on some level, we can mess with our own heads.

Not that different words will affect the reality of J, but it might affect your approach... it did for me.
 

keista

New Member
But no, I can quite categorically tell you, if I was out for a bike ride/walk with a French easy child, things would never get that far...
Only if you were a French parent. You are not a French parent, but a parent in France. Your son isn't a French easy child and we can all agree that he's not a easy child at all. You are very much displaced trying to fit in, in a situation you may never fit into. You would be having such difficulties even in the US.

In your response to whatamess, you more clearly defined your concerns - you are afraid you may harm J. Every parent's (well the ones that are attentive) concern. However, what makes you think that dealing with J with "the patience of a saint" would not do him any harm? Spare the rod, spoil the child, comes to mind, and I'm not talking physical punishment. How will J ever learn to deal with his emotions or reactions to someone angry at him if you *ALWAYS* have the patience of a saint? He won't. This is the reality. In 4th grade son had a teacher who was so excited to have him in her class. She was excited because she wanted to practice the skills she learned in an Autism workshop. GREAT. Yeah, well, not so much. By the end of the year, son was having tantrums and meltdowns BECAUSE of her skills. See, she wasn't using them when needed, she was using them ALL. THE. TIME! He was sick of it. Sick of the choices when he didn't' need them, sick of the accommodations when he didn't need them. Why couldn't she just treat him like the other kids? I had to tell her to back off. She was doing all the right things, but it became just too much. Even too much of a good thing can become a bad thing.


So yes, when I tell you, or anyone else, not to be so hard on yourself, I am being VERY supportive, because humans aren't perfect, and neither are parents, and I think if parents were, it would not be a good thing
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
I had to re-evaluate my choice of words, when it came to my own thoughts about raising a difficult child. Because I was getting hung up on my own words and the ideas and pictures that I internalized with those words. Know what I mean?? Especially for those of us who love words on some level, we can mess with our own heads.

Not that different words will affect the reality of J, but it might affect your approach... it did for me.

This sounds intriguing, IC, and I'm not sure I have fully understood it. Can you explain more?
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
I'll have to see if I can think of specific examples - I had to make this switch quite a few years ago, so the details aren't in my "active" brain files right now.
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
Okay, well if the files show up, I'd be interested to know what's in them :) I understood you to be saying that you had to discard complex descriptions of your son in your mind and just go with the flow of what was actually happening... but I may be on the wrong track.
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
I had to change the wording on the labels.
Here's a couple examples (yes, I'm still thinking)...
- I used to call him "frustrating"... now I just say he's "challenging"
- I used to wonder where his intellegence got lost... now I wonder what he is using it on ('cause it isn't the things "society" expects, like homework)
- I used to fret over what happened to "my" boy... now, I remember that he never was "mine". He's his own person. I can't get him back, because he never was there. All I can do is build a relationship from where we are right now, and try and help him find himself. Trust me - if you saw our backyard right now, you'd understand that there's a big spread between the boy I thought I had, and the boy I have... and yet, I suspect that the day may come when other sides of him show up - the sides I saw 10 years ago...

Even then, most of this is ramble ... I'm at work (with brain going 100 miles an hour on something else...)
 

susiestar

Roll With It
whatamess, I think your statement that people always expect the child to change but not the parent is interesting. It sure is the opposite of most of what we experienced with Wiz. With the exception of a few teachers, everyone told us that we had to change the way we parented and handled Wiz, that the teachers had to deal with him differently, that we were the problem, not him. it took a lot of searching and several accusations of doctor or therapist shopping (we were accused of doing this to find someone who would tell us it was okay to 'abuse' Wiz by expecting him to not hurt other people and to 'abuse' him by making him conform to basic societal expectations like not throwing a screaming fit for 45 min in the grocery store because we wouldn't give him three candy bars - not one but three or more. The vast majority of tdocs, psychiatrists and even many teachers, not to mention other parents, thought we should give him what he wanted so he would 'behave' and we felt it was highly inappropriate, but we were told that WE were 'abusive' because this.), and even accusations of having abused him by having another child, as though simply having J was some type of abuse, which is nonsense and crazy. If that was abuse, every family with more than 1 child would be abusive. It just isn't so.

I look at parents like DaisyFace who are told over and over again that their child is fine and they need parenting classes, and like the other parents who were told that if they 'just' spent 30 min to an hour per night on 'quality time' with their teen then the child would not run away, use drugs, have a mental illness or developmental delay and wonder what the 'experts' are smoking that makes this seem rational. Because it seems totally delusional to me, and most of the advice we received from 'professionals' seemed like this. It took YEARS to find docs who saw that our child had to make some changes and until he did, NOTHING we did or didn't do would mean ANYTHING in terms of making any change in our child's behavior. we know because we tried almost everything except the truly stupid stuff that would hurt the rest of the family, esp the other kids.

I think we need a balance of changing our parenting AND expecting our child to conform to reasonable expectations.

I also think that the cultural differences are probably a big part of the problem with J and Malika. Malika wants her child to fit in, but the very early years of his life were NOT spent training him the way the French children are trained. He was raised in another culture and country, and those early years are crucial to how a child learns everything from behavior to thought to everything else. so it will be harder for J to behave like the french kids, and when his adhd is added in, it will be vastly harder. I also think there is an element of resource allocation problems that is part of the challenge with J.

Malika, NONE of this is meant as criticism. I was NOT saying that you are expecting j to change everything or you to change everything. I was saying that we had a radically different experience than whatamess - and giving examples of how radically different it was.

i mentioned resource allocation as a problem. Because I am disabled, I look at this a little bit differently than many. I have only so much ability to do things, so I have to carefully choose what I am going to do. I think most of our kids have a simlar problem, not lack of energy in the tradition sense, but lack of ability to cope. there were a lot of times that we wanted to go to a festival or something on the weekend but couldn't because Wiz used up all his coping at school that week. He worked HARD to get into as little trouble as possible and just couldn't handle going to some new event around people, no matter how special or cool or interesting it was. We often got the constant "NO" response from Wiz when we pushed to do something "special" on a weekend when he simply didn't have the ability to cope. He was unable to tell us that he couldn't cope, couldn't handle going to the event, or doing what we planned, esp if it was something that he really wanted to do. But his behavior showed us that he needed to take it easy.

Even though thank you is a easy child, he also had this reaction to things. for him it was due largely to sensory input, and to a big degree I think it was for Wiz too, but it wasn't all due to that.

NONE of my kids could handle doing a lot of after school activities. Wiz and Jess were allowed ONE activity that met ONE day a week. One weekday and Saturday was okay in 2nd grade for Jess IF she napped after school at least 3 days, and for Wiz it was 6th grade before he could handle it. thank you was able to handle more than 1 meeting a week for about 2 mos at a time starting last year (5th grade). But by the end of th 2nd month he was a MESS. He also would start napping after school by the 3rd week of meeting 2x per week plus saturdays.

ANYTHING we pushed them to do, even big grocery runs, caused real problems for them when they were over-extended. I used to hate Christmas because with all the parties and events and concerts, my kids were a total mess.

I am VERY aware that J is not scheduled like this, and that you would NEVER allow that. But maybe his "NO" answers to everything were his way of telling you that the bike ride was too long esp with the other activity planned. or that they were both too much and he needed some time iwth a calmer activity or time to do something calm of his choosing???

we all worry about harming our kids with our parenting - this worry is a big part of what makes us good parents, in my opinion. parents who don't have this worry are often the worst parents I have ever seen. in the long run, all you can do is the best you can do. You have NEVER woken up and asked yourself, "How can I harm/hurt/mess up J today?" I know you and I KNOW that this has NEVER crossed your mind. So you are doing your best, and for the most part J is a delightful young man. He may not be the ideal french child, but the ideal French child sounds a bit boring to me. I grew up with kids who never broke a rule, never had an idea that an adult would not like, and they were awful to be around, even for the adults. Mostly because they were boring and 'holier-than-thou', caught up in being perfect and in how un-perfect you were. I have faith in you, and your parenting. You are learning what J needs, and he is learning how to live in his current society, even though he may not ever fit in 100%. Even with that, you are a great mom, and are doing a great job.
 

whatamess

New Member
Susiestar, I appreciate that you spoke to my post in a respectful way (at least that's how I took it) even though it didn't match your experience. I'd like to give you a little scenario to clarify what I am trying to say. When my difficult child was 8, he was taken to gym class by an aide. Jump roping was the activity that day. My difficult child acted out. He was given time out. He acted out more. He was taken back to the special education room where he was to sit at his desk. He acted out further. He then went into seclusion and acted out more. One perspective says the aide responded appropriately to his behavior by punishing him and then justified the further punishments because he was obviously 'naughty' or undisciplined or whatever term that perspective justifies. The other perspective looks at how the adult could have responded and made a positive difference in trust and learning. That perspective would have understood that he didn't know how to jumprope and needed help. That he was lacking skills to ask for help or cope with the frustration. That aide could have turned that moment around. One group of people believe the aide did everything right another believes it could have been handled in a much different way. I am no saint, nor an expert, but your example of the candy bar could be looked at in two ways as well. I do NOT condone children 'getting away' with poor behavior, I do not let my child hurt others, break things or be unruly. These things do happen, and I don't approve of them, but my perspective on it is that punitive measures are not the way to go to change that behavior. My difficult child has been handled by school personnel who have differing perspectives and the most growth came when the tenet of Ross Greene was followed...children do well if they can, not if they want to. It's not an excuse and doesn't allow for poor behavior, but helps us understand the why behind it.
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
Maybe I can rephrase again? I don't think its so much about "kids needing to fit in" or "adults needing to fit in"... but...
In my experience? the "system" expects everybody else to fit in - parent, child, teacher, whoever.
And if you're wired a bit differently? The "system" doesn't really allow for that.
(if you're wired extremely differently, sometimes that's more acceptable... maybe because it is more obvious)
Which is why both the kid, and the parents, get hammered on a regular basis, trying to make us square pegs fit into their round peg-holes. somehow.

We're fortunate, here in Canada... in that officially, tolerance is taught, expected, and supported. (we still have bigots around, no question!) But because it is an official stance, we have a small wedge to use when dealing with the "system". In our case, once we had everybody's back to the wall (including ours), we were able to drive that wedge and come up with an education plan that they don't normally put on the table (but will tolerate)... because of "differences".

But no system can handle all cases well. I'm in IT - high-tech critical apps stuff. And we can't design systems that handle every single case, because we can't even conceive of every single case. We THINK we can... but sooner or later, we get a case we haven't handled.

In a country like France... there are far more "systems" and far less "tolerance"... which adds to the challenge.

But there is no perfect world. Anywhere. I look at the US stories on this board, and all the fights with insurance companies... and I'm glad I don't have that to deal with. But US members, I'm sure, wouldn't want to give up their right to go where they want and pay for what they can afford... we can't do that, and yes, there's been a time or two when it would have been nice!
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
I appreciate the points you all make. However, what I perhaps haven't made sufficiently clear is that J NEEDS, absolutely needs, a lot of physical exercise every day. The long bike rides, the walks, the trips to the places where kids jump all over structures and slides (don't know what you call them in the States), the tennis, gym and roller skating, are necessary to him. That said, I'm sure when we do the outdoor stuff and THEN something else, he is overloaded somewhere.
On that particular day, he hadn't done anything before the bike ride (which was very short, by his standards) except... watch films on the computer. And, to my mind, if anything is the culprit for creating his opositionality it is this... If I had my way, he wouldn't watch TV or DVDs at all. But that's not realistic or possible. So, we have a compromise - he only watches on Saturday and Sunday. But, if I think about it, he does get quite aggressive and difficult after watching...
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
If I had my way, he wouldn't watch TV or DVDs at all. But that's not realistic or possible.
Why not?
My kids don't have it, never have... and never will as long as they live under our roof.
Because... we don't have it, and don't want it for ourselves.

But... you have two problems (we had one).
Having started it, how do you now cut it off? (can't answer that one...)
And what will you do instead? And that's a challenge, because it's just you and J. So... how to keep him occupied, at stuff that doesn't require YOUR full-time involvement? Because, if you can solve this one with good enough stuff, the other might become mostly a moot point.

That said, I'm sure when we do the outdoor stuff and THEN something else, he is overloaded somewhere.
Hmmm... in that case, is it partly a scheduling issue? Not totally, because... J wants more and more and more of this high-energy stuff. Its addictive, too. But the neuromotor control effort, plus the sensory inputs, plus good old fashioned tiredness... don't add up to easy transitions. UGH! You can't do it first, you can't do it last, and you can't not do it.
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
Yes, something like that :)
No TV not realistic or possible simply because he watches it at the childminder and all the time in Morocco. It therefore becomes too schizophrenic and rigid to refuse it absolutely in my house (when he asks for it all the time) and allow him to see it other places... And, really, there is no problem doing other stuff with him... we read a lot of stories, he plays with his toys, we play ball outside, he likes to help a bit in the house (drying up the dishes, help with cooking). TV is totally dispensable as far as I am concerned! But we do live in society with others so...
 

susiestar

Roll With It
whatamess, other than the first and second grade teachers who were intensely abusive to Wiz, our teachers didn't do what your example said. they gave Wiz rewards (candy or computer game time, often on the teacher's login so he could get past the netnanny) when he acted out or hurt someone. I do think that IC phrased it better than I could though, that it is more they system that doesn't bend. Part of our problem was getting the admin to see that the teachers were feeding the problems and stopping the teachers, even when the teachers were wildly out of line. The teacher that drove my son into psychosis by allowing hours per day of things we didn't, and on her computer login which had no filters because she was buddies wtih the computer tech supervisor for the district) AND she altered his IEP and forged my signature didn't get punshed at all. Not even when six other parents found the same things that year. She was teacher of the year instead. And it was NOT decided when all this came out.

so you can see why I felt otherwise, but of course I respect your side, whatamess. I KNOW a lot of parents have your experience. it is one reason that ours was so bizarre to me. well, our experiences with teachers. I just thought the tdocs were idiots and until we found the one we adored here in OK, and the psychiatrist in OH that was so awesome, I thought ALL mental health providers were absolute idiots. Mostly because they kept askign why I had a problem giving Wiz 3 candy bars at the grocery if it would make him behave, or letting him watch tv/play video games all day if he wasn't hurtng anyone. The idea that he was hurting himself was treated as idiotic and small mnded.

We also had a lot more success with Wiz once we started using Ross Greene's methods, esp combined with the Love and logic methods.

Malika, I used the physical activity as one example of something that was 'too much' for J. You say that he NEEDS the physical outlets for his energy and I believe you. It was simply the activity mentioned in the post that registered in my mind and one I could use as an example. It isn't always the obvious thing that is using up the resources. I have also mentioned frquent snacks, esp protein snacks, as one thing that often turns around behavior like you were faced with on the outing. MANY children need, physically NEED, to eat every 2 hours. They learn to cope at school because they have no choice unless snacks are part of the schedule. this means that when they are home it is even more important for them to get those snacks to build up resources to use during times when they cannot have them at school. My kids were considered 'spoiled' by many of their friends' parents and their teachers because I usually had a snack in the car or my purse (if I walked) or we stopped for one on the way home from school. I found that they ALL had a better evening if they had a snack right away after school. We could then do an errand, play at the playground (the place with the slides and structures), go to a friend's house, etc... Without that almost immediate snack, the NO! started in about five min after they were out of school. It was not somethng I realized right away, and figuring out that cheese sticks or peanut butter crackers was a lot better, results wise, than cookies or sweet snacks or chips, took longer still. but i did figure it out and it made a HUGE difference.

I don't know how long you were out with J, or when he ate before you left. But when the first few No!'s came, maybe stopping for a small snack could have helped. it might be that while he truly NEEDED the physical actvity on several levels, and I truly believe you when you say that he does, that his body also NEEDED the protein/calories of a snack. I don't know if it is normal in France to eat three meals and few snacks or to eat several small meals per day. I do know that biologically the human body does FAR better with several small, balanced, meals/snacks throughout the day. Many nutritionists suggest what amounts to 6 small meals (usually called 3 small meals and 3 medication snacks to appease the mind/culture that expects 3 meals that are quite substantial) per day and this goes a LONG way to keeping blood sugar levels more even and to helping with most aspects of health. The snacks need to nOT be junk food though. Though I doubt from what you have said that junk food is a big part of J's diet.

If you believe that the computer/tv/videos are what is creating the problem, using up his resources or causing him to be oppositional in order to get you to allow him to not get the physical activity he needs in order to go back and play with/watch them, why not cut out these things?

There were many times I cut out ALL tv/computer/video time from my kids. My husband hated it but learned to not go against me because I made him deal with ALL problems if I found he did allow it. I always talked to him about it before I cut them out, and I expected him to back me up. It would have been far easier to not have to deal with him on this, but making him deal wth ALL the school calls, problems at home, nightmares, etc... stopped the undermining fast.

WHY did I cut out electronics? It is my firm, cold, hard fast rule that if a child will lie, steal, cheat and/or hurt people to get something, then that thing is very bad for them and MUST be eliminated. Wiz got to that point without very strict limits and my husband was no capable of that type of strictness with his beloved (husband's beloved) electronics. He would let the kids be on one computer or watch tv so he could play on the adult's computer for hours when I was not home. There were times I took away part of husband's computers so that HE had no computers to use except at work because he stopped doing ANYTHING with us - the rule went for grownups as well as kids.

The first week with-o electronics was AWFUL. I had to provide other things to do and to be VERY firm because Wiz raged like a madman. Usually he stopped when I started to call 911 but often nothing else stopped him. I couldn't get Gma and Gpa to support me on this untl they saw firsthand how he would lie, cheat, steal, and beat the koi out of Jess to get what he wanted to watch or do on the tv/computer. So for several years I had to force my way through this myself. By the end of the first week Wiz was doing less raging and more bargaining- if I do this chore or read to Jess or rub your back, can I watch pokemon? "I would LOVE it if you would do that, but the tv is off and you are not going to watch anything. I know it is hard."

I never gave a return date. After the first explanation of WHY we were not having electronics, I did not ever go into the whys, regardless of the begging or whining. Kids are smart, they remember the why even at age 5 (about when I first started doing this with Wiz). I told him the electronics were off until further notice which would be weeks because he was abusing them and us by lying, cheating, stealing and hurting us to get what he wanted. That is not healthy and it is our jbo as parents to remove anything that causes that kind of reaction in him. I would not let him take a medicine that caused that, and I wouldn't let him have electronics because they were causing it. If, after a month or two, he was not lying, cheating, stealing or hurting anyone, then I would consider MAYBE allowing thirty minutes a week. I would not even THINK about it until x date. I usually used some holiday or a day something was going on that was on the calendar. It gave a date that I would consider ending the ban, but did not promise anything.

Wiz DID try to force that "think about" into "I get it back" on that date, and I was always careful to tell him that no, he did NOT get it back on that date. His behavior determined if he got even a SMIDGE back on that date. The first 10-14 days were the WORST with this. They were NOT fun at ALL. Horrible, really. But by the 3rd week he was grudgingly accepting and by the 4th week he was keeping himself busy wth other things. Usually he realized in the end of the 3rd week how much fun he was having doing other things, and how many other things were in his world when there was no screen to monopolize him. At age five to about age seven he would ask if his legos and blocks and stuffed animals were 'lonely' or felt neglected when all he did was watch tv. I often said yes.

When we did allow screens back, it was a tiny tiny bit at a time. one short show the kids agreed on. This was a bit easier because my kids ONLY watched videos, never what was on television being broadcast. Wiz thought that you were required to buy everything shown on tv and it was not worth dealing with so instead of cable tv we bought a couple of new videos every month and Gpa would send us a box of them every few weeks (drove me nuts with that, and we gave LOTS of them away because it was overwhelming). So we could show one short video and not have to much fussing because it was all they could get to.

Lots of people thought we were awful, stunting their development, asked "What will they talk to other kids about?" and all that was, to me, garbage. The screens stunted thier growth and interests and they never lacked for stuff to talk about that we saw. they tended to lack for the ability to not talk about things. I still see the way Wiz reacted to the electronics as an addiction and a problem. He reacted to Dungeons and Dragons and other role playing games, esp real life ones, the same way. Not so much the obsessive Aspie interest, thought hat is there, but more of an actual addiction. it went to that extreme and at times in his teens he lost that boundary between real life and fiction. At those points it was in his best interests to remove the screen or game or whatever until he could get a grip on reality and start to learn to moderate himself again. Recently he told me he wished I had pushed his grandparents to moderate his D&D and other role playing game involvement because he has over $6000 invested in cards and things and there really isn't a market for them at this time. He is into other stuff, and wishes he had saved that $ or used it for other things. I just gave him a hug and told him to think of it as a life lesson. he laughed, but it was with me so that is big progress.

Malika, you CAN remove the videos from your son. Simply tell him that you are going to read or play a game or go outside and not watch them for a few weeks. explain that the more he begs and demands them, the longer they will be gone. Tell him that you think they are part of his problems and you want to see if not having them at all will result in him being better able to control himself and his temper. You know it won't happen at first and may take a few weeks or months, but you are willing to be strong for him and to do what he needs rather than what he wants. The only catch is that you must then DO IT. This will likely include keeping the computer put away or locked away when you are not using it. You also should explain that YOU are going to be using the computer because you are the adult. When he is the adult and the parent, he can have adult privileges and decisions and choices. Of course you shouldn't watch a video while he is right there, but this removal of screens does NOT mean that you stop doing your work and/or watching a program you enjoy after he is in bed or when he is with a friend. Just like there are other things that adults do that kids don't, there is NO reason to eliminate use of the computer/screens for your adult enjoyment time simply because J s unable to handle it during his children's enjoyment time.

Malika, I am sorry if my earlier post sounded like I was saying that you forced J to do too many physical actvities, or too much exercise. I couldn't think of another example of something that might take resources, mostly because my brain was really frazzled from helping thank you to fix a project for school that he made rather a big mistake on but couldn't figure out a way to fix. I saw a way clearly and easily, but that would be MY way and it was HIS work. So while I helped, and eventually sewed part of it because he was unable to due to hand problems, it had to be HIS ideas. I find that to be such a difficult thing, to step out and NOT give my ideas while helping him see possibilities, but it is the best way for him to learn so I work at it. i truly believe that electronics, be they tv shows, games, computer time, etc...., truly CAN eat our children's ability to cope. Their brains get so used to that pattern of nfo being presented, and of the rapd changes and instant rewards, and then the real world and other people become difficult for them to manage because the real world works so much slower and requires so much more effort. I hope you can see what I meant, and that my experiences with removing 'sceens' (anything electronic with a screen) was not easy but WAS beneficial to my children. Wiz really was the one who needed it, but all the kids saw their horizons and interests expand when the screens were turned off.

Each of our kids is so different, and still has so much in common. You really are the great mom we tell you that you are, and part of that is because you know what J really needs and what he really needs to not have. Follow those instincts even if others tell you that you are making a big mistake.
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
Don't worry, susiestar, I didn't think that you were accusing me of forcing J to exercise! :)
I think you are onto something with the protein snacks... I am sure this is a good idea and I have certainly noticed the link between J being tired and hungry and his having meltdowns. If only he weren't so crazily fussy with food! Trick will be to find something he accepts... Things like granola bars he just won't eat. But I will experiment!
As to the films... He's not watching TV at the moment because it's broken and I prefer that - on the computer he can watch things that are more suitable for his age (such as "Fireman Sam" - do you have that in the States?) I really do applaud your commitment and strong stomach in having enforced this no electronics rule at times with your son because you saw that as best for him. Can I be honest with you? I am not sure that I have quite such commitment or stomach when I know he will watch at the childminder's and when he watches during the holidays in Morocco. I have outlawed it from Monday to Friday in my house and basically he accepts that although he often tries to push to watch "just today" or "just for a special treat" - and I always say no, because I know that once I say yes, the whole edifice will come crumbling down and he will be insisting and tantruming to have it every single day... I want him to play with toys, interact with me, play outside during the week and have limited watching on the weekend and that is how it will stay.
There is a concept that is often used in buddhism - that of the middle way, or the medium point between two extremes as being the place of wisdom. I guess that is what many of us try to find in various ways and I am trying to find it at the moment in terms of many things.
 

busywend

Well-Known Member
The term I used was 'parenting resistant'. It REALLY helped others understand it much better. So, I did change the way I did things. It really was the better way to help difficult child grow and improve. It helps as they get older that you can be less....how should I say....not controlling really, but in charge. Because as they get older they make some decisions themselves. And learn when they make the wrong one. So, for me, making childhood as pleasant as possible, despite what you thought parenting would be like, is the goal. Having positive and good memories to look back on as an adult seemed more important than getting difficult child to do what I wanted her to do when I wanted her to do it. Did that mean I had to parent completely different than I imagined I would? You betcha! Was it hard? Anything that takes you out of your comfort zone is hard. Was it worth it? A RESOUNDING YES!!! Absolutely!
 

Giulia

New Member
Susiestar, when I say a parent that he has to change his perspective to parent a challenging child, I don't mean we have to let the child do whatever he wants.
I never say that.

Changing the perspective means for me : how can we teach a child what we want to teach him in an efficient way ?

We have to stop blaming one another, blaming the child, blaming the teachers, blaming the tdocs, psychiatrists.... Blaming brings only hurt and suffer. Blaming has never ever solved any problem.
Each one needs to make one step toward the other. It is not easy, it is not a cure all problems, but it works and leads to long lasting changes.
The child needs to make steps for meeting the word, but parents need to make steps in order to teach the child.
My point is : we have to stop blaming and start to see what works for the child.
Some "perfect parenting" do not worth a fight over, bitterness and anger on both sides.

Yes, we all wish to be perfect parents of perfect children, or perfect children of perfect parents, but unfortunately, perfection does not exist in this world.
So, we can find out : what works for the person X ? It's not because the strategy Y worked for the person Z that it will work for the person X.
I learnt it the harsh way, mom learnt it the harsh way, I don't want to renew this costly mistake again.

Though love can work for some persons, but it won't work for everyone. So if it does not work at all, even it worsens the problem we have to deal with, it's time to find out another solution.
We have to rely on the strategy "what works for the person X" and not to always blame the person if the strategy does not work. Because we cannot live in a world when "one size fits all".

In my experience, psychiatrists and tdocs are champion for blaming parents/child, followed by teachers. Like if they needed to blame their patient to feel the power of superiority.
If blame were working, there would not be any problem in this world, nor smoking, nor drugs, nor anorexia.....


Let give up blame, and start problem solving together.
 

susiestar

Roll With It
Malika, it wasn't so much a strong stomach or commitment but seeing this child destroying his sister and I by physically brutalizing us, watching him lie, cheat and steal to get tv time (steal his siblngs things if they wouldn't use their turn to choose a show to watch what he wanted, even if it was wildly inappropriate age-wise for the sibling), watching his life become tv and computer and tantrums/rages/abusing others to get tv and computer. We would have LOVED the middle of the road approach, and I do know that this is not for everyone and that not everyone needs or is capable of it. I just had an incredibly violent child who was only getting worse and we had tried every option we could find. We were on a six mo waiting list for a psychiatrist appointment (first one) and nothing worked and he was incredibly unhappy on top of the violence - he loathed himself and tried to kill himself twice before this (why we were seeking a psychiatrist - the ER would not admit or set up an appointment earlier and the pediatrician couldn't get an earlier appointment either.

Later we did it because his world kept narrowing to ONLY electronics and it just isn't healthy, esp with the behaviors he used to get the electronics. BUT this isn't right for every child or family. I just hear so many people say it isn't 'possible' to remove all electronics from a child's life, even only at home, and it isn't true. I wanted you to know you wouldn't be the only one who had done it.

I do think the way you have it set up now is great. I agree that if you give in during the week then the expectation for you to give in will be far harder to overcome and J's meltdowns will increase.

My kids were picky eaters too, so I understand the difficulty in finding somethng. I did NOt use granola bars because they are basically cookies with a healthy name and they rarely have protein unless I make them and put it in there. Would he eat cheese sticks or peanut butter crackers or protein bars? It takes a while to find what works,a nd J may not need the protein my kids did/do.
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
No, I see, you really had little choice because your son was so extreme in his desire for video games/watching. Which is the scary thing about them, isn't it, that they could be that addictive? J in his own little way is addicted - watching TV/DVDs seems to be the highlight of his week and he will always say this is what he likes best, over and above any physical activity, playing with other children, etc. Whether this is partly because I have romanticised it by making it a weekend only activity I don't know.
I DO think you are right about the frequent need for snacks, and I think protein snacks would be the best option of all. I will look in the local health food store to see what I can find there. I also think he gets dehydrated during the day... bizarrely, the teacher will not let the kids drink during school and said no when I asked if he could bring a bottle of water... He comes home for lunch and drinks then but at the end of the day he seems to be really thirsty.
In the end, though, I think J just has the kind of personality that wants to be oppositional, even when he is not hungry or tired or whatever. He is just not easy, the way some children or people are - not easy to please, not easy to get to go with the flow, and rather monstrous in his reactions at times. I do feel sure that because of some post-traumatic reactions of my own, this sets off stress reactions in me, and a kind of punitive, judging attitude towards his "male bullying" that occurs for me quicker than a flash, as it were, and I end up taking stances and saying things I regret and which are not good for either of us - which was the original theme of this thread! I do not have high ideals of parenting or unrealistic standards. I am wanting to avoid being abusive, quite seriously. Which is why I say... J would sometimes try the patience of a saint and I can be forgiven, as it were, for sometimes really losing it with him - forgiven, but I still want to avoid these "red zone" experiences as much as possible because there IS a better way, even if it is extremely difficult to actually implement it in the moment. Which is where thinking ahead, careful planning and constant strategies and tools such as protein bars really is useful.
I am not judging myself too harshly - as someone said, commenting on this thread, there will always be other people to do that for me so I don't need to bother :)
 

Ktllc

New Member
Another little input: what helps me stay calm is to have a line I can repeat over and over when V is having a meltdown. I usually say "you can't do/have x,y or z, but you will be fine". After answering his "why's" once, I just stick to my line. This way I am not ignoring him by being mute, but I don't have to get tangled in explanations (that he would refute anyway). If V ends up saying this little phrase himself, I give him a sticker and this is the end of the episode usually (can last up to 1 hour though, not quick and easy).
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
Thanks, Ktllc. Any thing that helps you/me/us stay calm in the eye of the storm is good :) Today, wouldn't you know it, J was his easy child self... good as gold all day, really sweet and helpful - apart from an episode at McDonalds where we go for lunch on Wednesdays when, after coming back to the play area having queued an age to get their McCardboard, a woman came up to me at once and asked him whether J was my son; when I said yes, she informed me that J had twice spat on her daughter and would I tell him to stop it!! When I quizzed him about it, he said he had seen another boy doing it... Today was our psychomotricien and sports day - involving me ferrying him around the place to the various activities with a long walk inbetween. Coming back home, he asked to go play with his friend in the village and accepted almost without a murmur when I said no... Once inside he set about "tidying up" and asking what he could do to help... Trying to think what, if anything at all, accounts for such a nice day as opposed to the less-than-nice one we had on Saturday, I can come up with only two possibilities. The first is that he slept very well last night, longer than usual, from 8 to 8 and the other is that... we were not around the village, where I realise I am somewhat paranoid about people hearing J be defiant and rude with me... my angst makes him all the more wound up and oppositional, of course.
As it was we had a lovely day together, and he was very sweet and funny, and really... one would never know that not all in the garden is roses. And so it goes...
 
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