The truth comes out...maybe

[2much2recover]

I know Lil probably wont agree with this but I'm of a mind to step back completely and tell him to deal. As we're telling him this, also tell him that if he wants ANY advice from us on this to ask right then. If he needs any other legal advice he needs to speak with a public defender.

I would tell you to step back and stay "done" only on the condition that Lil tell him what adjudication is and how important it is that he gets that covered. What he "chooses to do" is still up to him.

ut do I not even talk to the PA? I mean, if I can get the charges dropped or if we get him a lawyer who can get him some kind of deal...I don't want him having a record! Jabber and I always told him if he got arrested we would not bail him out. Literally. He'd sit in jail until court. But we also told him we'd help him all we could, hire a lawyer, etc. Well he's not sitting in jail, because he bailed himself out.
I don't know how to just let him swing in the breeze here. It is against every instinct I have...both as a mother and a lawyer.

Yes, I am sure he is counting on that as well. There is no way to be part way "DONE".

Its one thing to know that he will steal from us but another thing entirely to receive verification that he has moved on to more accessible if less safe targets.

Personally I find it more objectionably they he would stoop to stealing from his own family, but that is just me - and yes I have been through it but worse. (And why I feel it is worse)

As much as I feel for both of you, that your son is pushing on every single boundary that you have ever placed on him, I think done means done. I was thinking about it earlier - is it not the whole mashed potato incident all over again only with an adult this time? No matter how much expertise Lil has on law, do you really believe that if you step in and save him "this once" he isn't going to keep refusing to learn (eat the mashed potatoes?) What I think is every fiber of him is not going to take "we are done" or even worse he doesn't care or can't be bothered to think it out or who the eff knows infinitude? To be done, you have to be done. I know it frightens Lil, but isn't that the point? It will frighten Lil to the point of not being done, it's the lawyer in her. She wants to re-write the injustice here, while I hear Jabber saying there likely is none:

I don't believe that he is innocent. He might not have actually stolen the blue rays but he was at least being a lookout. He had no money so why was he even there? You don't go to the store with a friend when neither of you have any money or a vehicle, not one that's 5 miles from where you are staying, unless you are up to no good.

The best you can hope for is adjudication - but it isn't likely to help you any the next time, and just as there was ongoing theft in the home, the world is now his home and you can't save nobody from themselves (intentional bad grammar)

 

[Jabberwockey]

She wants to re-write the injustice here,

I don't think she wants to rewrite the injustice, she just wants to fix the problem. Its bothering her to no end that there is no way for her to fix the problem so she wants to fix what she can.

 

[PatriotsGirl]

I am a fixer, too. I VERY much get that...it is SO hard to sit back and NOT fix something. I SO get that...

 

[Lil]

I don't think she wants to rewrite the injustice, she just wants to fix the problem. Its bothering her to no end that there is no way for her to fix the problem so she wants to fix what she can.

Not "fix" as in make it go away honey. Not "fix" like you fix a parking ticket. But help, yes. Sure, I'd love to see charges dropped if he's really not guilty. But I'd at least like to have him have representation. Public defender would be fine, but I'm not sure they'll take him since he has a job. Usually they only take indigents. He may not qualify.

This may be a misdemeanor, but it's not a minor problem. It's a theft charge. It will effect his entire life, forever. If he straightens up 5 years from now and goes to school and becomes a perfect member of society, he'll still have it looming over his head. Seems a heavy price to pay for maybe being lookout for $50 worth of movies.

 

[2much2recover]

I don't think she wants to rewrite the injustice, she just wants to fix the problem. Its bothering her to no end that there is no way for her to fix the problem so she wants to fix what she can.

In the end though he wins because once again it proves - yes, in a really, really sick way, proves that she is not done. AND I can't say that I don't understand it , I do - and man do I really feel bad that he is pushing so hard on you both. I went and re-read the first post and from what Lil wrote, he did this after the whole riot act from you two went down. So whatever was said, done, was just wasted emotion, breath, energy on someone who doesn't get it. Oh and I understand that it goes against the point that Lil is a lawyer, that kind of is the point. No matter how you justify it or rationalize it, (oh well, if he only stole $50 worth? REALLY??? Isn't the fact that he kept stealing from the two of you how he got here in the first place?) you can yell, scream, throw money at it (the apartment) hire a lawyer etc, but there is just such a huge problem here and whatever you do is going to send a huge message either way.
You really expect him to stop his criminal behavior that he wouldn't stop in your own home?

 

[Lil]

No matter how you justify it or rationalize it, (oh well, if he only stole $50 worth? REALLY??? Isn't the fact that he kept stealing from the two of you how he got here in the first place?) you can yell, scream, throw money at it (the apartment) hire a lawyer etc, but there is just such a huge problem here and whatever you do is going to send a huge message either way.

I didn't say only. I am saying that I still don't think he's irredeemable and that I hate the thought of a conviction following him for the rest of his life because he did something incredibly stupid (and yes, petty - it's not like he robbed a bank or stole a car), before he was old enough to drink.

Yes. There is a HUGE problem here. I don't deny it. Of course, I DO still believe in innocent until proven guilty and he COULD be telling the truth. He could be lying too! I don't deny that. But I already said, I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO.

 

[Jabberwockey]

Not "fix" as in make it go away honey.

Didn't mean fix as in go away. I meant fix what's causing him to behave like this in the first place. I understand that even though its a misdemeanor that there are potentially serious long term consequences as do you. The problem is that our son doesn't. On a good day he only see's how something affects the next few hours at the most. The problem is that he learns by experiencing and while you and I both know that this particular experience isn't a good one, it may just be a necessary one to keep him from getting any deeper. What's the first thing you do when you realize that you're in a hole? Put down the shovel. He needs to learn to do this instead of calling mom and asking her to bring some rope.

 

[Lil]

I have to go. I actually have a substantial gap in my schedule for a change to get some work done - the type I actually get paid for - and instead of working I'm sitting here at my desk wiping tears. Thank God I have an office with a door. But I can't do this anymore. I just can't.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

He is 19.

This isn't something like we had, where the police were already on the lookout and determined to put a stop to what they knew was going on. That action those policemen took was the best kind of warning there could be.

If this were my 19 year old son, I would do all I knew to clear him this time.

If he chooses this path again, you will know what to do.

That is why you don't know. Because you do know that a chance is a chance, and that your son should have every chance.

Again, it is as much about the parent as it is the child. Do all you can to clear this for him. Bet on your child until you cannot, in good faith, bet on the good in him anymore. When that time comes, you will not feel conflicted. You will feel sad, but not conflicted.

I am huge on being able to look into our own eyes in the mirror.

This is your son.

He is 19.

This is a non-violent thing. I would feel differently if he had victimized someone, if he were on a power trip or had been cruel.

I would believe in him, I would help him, I would use this as an object lesson in what might have happened and in where this kind of behavior is going to take him in future.

For me, the choice would be crystal clear, once I thought it through. Not a violent crime. No bravado, no accusing you of being the underlying reason for why he "had" to do what he did.

I would help him.

If the kids are determined to go a bad way, there is no way we can turn them from it. But especially when they are 19, nothing is set in stone. I think we need to try everything we can find to help them change the course their lives are taking.

We don't have to like it, or like what they've done.

He is 19.

Help him.

Cedar

 

[2much2recover]

Yes. There is a HUGE problem here. I don't deny it. Of course, I DO still believe in innocent until proven guilty and he COULD be telling the truth. He could be lying too! I don't deny that. But I already said, I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO.

OK so you couldn't put down your foot and make him stop committing misdemeanors against two of you , no matter how many times you threatened him with arrest in your own home and now you think he might get trapped by the man? About sum it up? Lil, pardon me but you definitely are not thinking straight.
Also, Lil, what I would advise you to do, is to step back and let what happens happen. This charge seems very serious to you right now, but trust me in the big over all scheme of big busts this isn't one. It is not like, that WHEN and IF he gets his life back together you couldn't legally have this charge erased from his record. This keeps you from backing away from your promise of being done and leaves the opportunity to fix it when he is ready. A win-win.

 

[dstc_99]

Lil,

First let me say WOW just WOW!

Now let me say this. I am of the mindset that you and Jabber can meet in the middle on this one without letting your difficult child think you have rescued him. The first thing I would do is sit down with difficult child and tell him that you will be there to support him if he has questions or concerns but that since he commited the crime then he needs to deal with courts/lawyers. My thoughts would be to try to make sure he gets a public defender. His income is so low and so sporadic he can't have made much last year so he might qualify.

The next thing I would do as a member of the courts and corrections communities is that I would speak to the public defender and let him know that this is your son. I wouldn't ask for special treatment. I would just want an opportunity let him know you and Jabber are there to support difficult child but not to fix this. I would also ask that difficult child not be told of your visit.

The last thing I would do is answer difficult child's calls and try to assist him with his decisions.

If it's a petty theft then he could easily get probation or community service right?

 

[Jabberwockey]

The first thing I would do is sit down with difficult child and tell him that you will be there to support him if he has questions or concerns but that since he commited the crime then he needs to deal with courts/lawyers.

That's actually part of the issue right now. He is claiming to be innocent. Its the main reason we hesitate to ask to look at the police report. Lil doesn't seem to think he won't qualify for a public defender but no way to know for sure without asking.

If it's a petty theft then he could easily get probation or community service right?

Yes, especially since its his first offense. But it will depend on if he is actually guilty, if he will admit to it if he is, and if he has a meltdown during court. I dread the court date because he is VERY big on "just making himself understood" which translates to I won't shut up until you agree with me. The judge will not be amused if he does this.

 

[Lil]

I dread the court date because he is VERY big on "just making himself understood" which translates to I won't shut up until you agree with me. The judge will not be amused if he does this.

He does that with US. I sincerely doubt he'd do that in a courtroom. He isn't a complete idiot.

Read Cedar's post again. And again and again. She is saying exactly what I want to say but am too upset to.

And now I have to go again because I really can't do this. I need to block this site on my office computer. I really do. There's only so many times I can sit and weep in my office before someone notices.

 

[dstc_99]

Yes, especially since its his first offense. But it will depend on if he is actually guilty, if he will admit to it if he is, and if he has a meltdown during court. I dread the court date because he is VERY big on "just making himself understood" which translates to I won't shut up until you agree with me. The judge will not be amused if he does this.

Maybe you could suggest he go to court and sit in the back prior to his court date. This way he can see what happens and hopefully be a little more prepared for what will and wont be tolerated.

 

[Jabberwockey]

He does that with US. I sincerely doubt he'd do that in a courtroom. He isn't a complete idiot.

Lil is right. Sorry, this was a poor attempt at lightening the mood

 

[Nancy]

I understand your feelings on the attorney thing Lil. My husband has always advised anyone who asks, client or friend/family that you should never go into court without an attorney. I don't think our difficult child ever did any of her deeds because of her dad's profession either, but she sure got a good idea how well her dad was respected and just how serious our justice system is. I think in many ways it was good for her to know exactly what went into each case instead of just meeting with some random court appointed atty who spoke to her for two minutes before the hearing. We struggled with doing the right thing also and not wanting to think her dad would always get her out of trouble. But it's in his bones and it turned out well in the end. I think she was totally shocked the one time we hired an attorney and the the magistrate sent her to juvie for the weekend right in front of her dad. He did not intervene and she learned a lesson. He often suggests to friends when they call that they let their child sit in jail until the hearing.

It is very difficult being a parent and attorney when it's your own child. We want to protect their future and yet we also want them to have consequences, we want them to change their ways. I'm fairly sure that magistrate understood that and took the decision out of our hands when he sent her to juvie.

I have been in the same place as you, disgusted, angry, hurt, scared, wanting nothing more to do with her. Do you think he is worried at all or understands the seriousness of this?

One other comment, our difficult child finally understood the seriousness of having a record when she applied for jobs and had to pass a background check.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

Maybe you could suggest he go to court and sit in the back prior to his court date.

This is an excellent idea, and is even a very good way for you and Jabber to interpret what is happening.

difficult child should see what it is that happens when grown ups break the law.

He should hear that if he continues down the path he is on, his future will revolve, not around taking a Master's and then, a doctorate, but around court appearances and jails and prisons, and his life will not be his own. Say something about how we get where we go one thought, one small, inappropriate thing, at a time. Stress that we get to the good stuff the same way.

Which way he goes is up to him.

I wouldn't talk it to death. I would strive for "calm dominant." I would clarify my own understanding of how I want to think about this.

No more tears.

Your mission, should you choose to accept it (Remember Mission: Impossible?) is to bring yourselves and each other through this with as much grace and strength as you can muster.

It's a choice.

Calm dominant.

***

Can he visit someone in jail, see what a jail looks like, what it smells and feels like? Can he be made to understand this is one possible future for him, and can you contrast that with the future you and Jabber are prepared to help him achieve?

It could be that this is a blessing in disguise.

It could be.

So, that is how I would look at it.

Lil and Jabber, you will know more about the age at which legal charges become serious things. I would stress that. Just as you are considering helping him to the degree that you are able now, the day will come when you no longer believe in him, and your help will not be offered.

Your son did something wrong. If you could link all these little wrongnesses of thought and action into the creation of the criminal's lifepath...would that reach your difficult child?

Not even anger or sadness or pain, for the parents. It is what it is, and this is where it's going. difficult child can stop it now, or he can continue making the kinds of choices that will see him spending much of his lifetime in some stinking cell somewhere.

I don't know if that's true. I'm saying you could use this incident as a time to push home to difficult child just what he is getting in exchange for everything he is giving up.

Here is peace: Once you are through this, whatever you do and however it turns out, you will not feel as gutted, as desperate to turn back the clock, as you do, today.

Cedar

I remember the first time I saw difficult child daughter in handcuffs. She was fifteen.

***

Lil, you can do this. We have talked here on the site about the clear, cold eyed decision to accept and survive.

I did it.

You can do it.

Throw yourself into your work; work so hard that you lose track of time.

That is how I did it.

Work, work, work.

One of us stripped her kitchen wallpaper to get herself through the worst of it. Then, she repainted the kitchen some horrible yellow that she hated...but that somehow felt just right.

Ugly and angry, and so she got it out where she could see it.

And that is how she saved herself.

 

[Tanya M]

Lil and Jabber, I'm so sorry. I know how much this hurts as I've been there too many times. You will probably never really know the truth whether he was involved or knew what was going on.

husband and I never got a lawyer for our difficult child the multiple times he was arrested. After the first time he swore up and down that he would never put himself in a situation to get arrested again as he didn't like jail. I had hoped and prayed that seeing what jail was really like, not like what they show on t.v. would have a serious impact but it didn't.

I just hate to see you go to the expense of getting a lawyer or having to call in a favor only to have him do this again down the road but then again, I do not have a crystal ball to look into to see how it would play out in either scenario.

Each time my difficult child would get arrested he was always "so sorry, I'll never get in trouble again, you'll see mom, I swear"

My heart goes out to you both. You have to do what you can live with.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

Re: Work

Lil, you did not get where you are without a strong sense of self-discipline.

Employ it now.

Envision yourself as you would be, as you will be, and strike out for shore.

That is how you survive it.

 

[Lil]

think in many ways it was good for her to know exactly what went into each case instead of just meeting with some random court appointed atty who spoke to her for two minutes before the hearing.

You know I WAS a public defender a hundred (or 25) years ago...and I sucked. I really did. I admit it. I plea bargained virtually every case. But that's what you do because, lets face it, virtually every single one is guilty! My son may be guilty too. I don't know. But there were a few we actually tried and we won too. So I don't know. PD's are so overworked, that unless the case is an open and shut winner or their client just refuses a plea, they do tend to just work out the best deal they can and move on down the road. The fact is, PA's are more likely to work with and pay attention to hired counsel...if only because they figure the defendant is already being punished by paying the bill.

At least, that was my experience back then.

Do you think he is worried at all or understands the seriousness of this?

I don't really know. I sent him a text today and told him where the PD's office was and that he needed to go apply for their services. I also told him which church's food pantry is open today. He thanked me then asked if we had an RCA adapter he could use because he has a VCR and a giant TV to hook up. How he got it I don't know, maybe on the curb, but in any event my response was that he had more important things to worry about than TV.

***

I feel this is the time I should be lifting my skirts like a pirate lady...but I'm just not up to it.