"They'll take you away" and I lost it...

[Shari]

Even tho the straterra is gone, difficult child is still throwing a fit at least once a day in which he gets violent. Sometimes there is some level of control to it. Other times, there is not.

Today, I had no trouble leaving him at school this morning (about half the time or better he screams bloody murder about being left at school). Today, he seemed happy to be there. Since most of his fits happen during after-school care, I have been picking him up around 3.

I was running a little late today, got there around 3:20. His teacher met me at the door, like is getting to be the norm. Today's fit happened between noon and 1:30. His teacher sent him to be alone with another teacher who stays in a room with younger children who nap. He started kicking and throwing his shoes at the napping children. She had to remove him to another room where he screamed at her, hit her, and threw chairs for half an hour.

They tell me this every single day and there's not a blessed thing in the universe that I know to do about it, and tonight, I lost it. I said if you keep it up, they'll take you away, and I won't have a choice about it. He started yelling, angry and Jesus for making him this way, and being bad, intermixed with an occassional "what's that black stuff on that rock, mom?" like nothing was wrong....then right back to the hysterics. And now he's crying because he's going to be taken away, and I'm about to cry cause I don't know what else to do with him, or how to even continue forward down this path like this, and now I've done the ultimate bad and lost my temper and said something I shouldn't have.

I need help. Serious amounts of help.

 

[Andy]

I am so sorry you and difficult child is going through this. Something is still not right for him. I am sure he is just as upset and scared as you are.

Are you journalling EVERYTHING - time up, meals/snacks, activities, time to bed, etc. to see if you can find a common thread? You say they are usually after school but what was different for an after lunch melt down?

I hope you can figure this out.

 

[amazeofgrace]

sweetie, at least the school can not deny there's a problem, is it a public school or a special placement school, if public I would ask for an IEP and special placement in a theraputic school.

I wish I had the answers I am also one who has many unanswwered questions concerning difficult child's, Just keep swimming sweetie ><>

 

[gcvmom]

In The Explosive Child (which I'm reading yet AGAIN) the first or second chapter talks about kids who have a hard time adjusting to transitions -- maybe this is what's going on? What is he doing just before noon? Is he coming in from recess or lunch?

 

[Shari]

Lunch usually isn't the time of day he loses it. Obviously, today was an exception. And this would have taken place after lunch.

I don't know all the details, but I do know that he was sent down to be with the younger kids' teacher. That's not standard procedure, so I can only assume that was because he was not maintaining in the classroom to begin with. From there, obviously, he fell apart.

 

[klmno]

Wow, Shari- you must be sooo frustrated. I'm curious- does he do this every day even when he doesn't go to school or after-school care? If not, has he ever been in other day care situations where it didn't happen? Has he had a complete physical where they take blood and check all the counts?

 

[Shari]

Yes, he does it at home, has done it at a friends' house, does it at grandma's, etc. He hasn't been in any other daycare situations recently to compare.

Had a blood draw 5 months ago, all was normal then.

 

[Fran]

Shari, give yourself a little break. You have done wonderful things for this little guy. He is difficult and complex.
I don't know why he is falling apart. I'm just a mom but my difficult child always got a little worse before he sort of took a bit of a leap.

On the other hand, something isn't working for him. Not in school and not at home. Transition may be the problem or hunger or anxiety. It's up to you to be the detective and figure out how to help him learn some self control.

The frustration and anger from you isn't the norm. You can fix this. It's only consistent talk like that which does damage. Apologize and do better next time. It's the only thing I know to do when I have lost control. It makes us human to our kids and they also learn that everyone can admit to mistakes.

I know when the school doesn't know what to do and you don't know what to do and the doctors don't know what to do they still all look to the mom for answers.

 

[BusynMember]

Ok, I have a different take on it, since I have taken multitudes of antidepressants (and Straterra is one) and I have a son with Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-not otherwise specified (which is one of your son's diagnosis--perhaps it is the MAIN one).
First off, there is a withdrawal syndrome for all antidepressants. Just because the drug is out of the body doesn't mean the effects are. In fact, the effects of withdrawal can be worse than the drug itself. Been there!!!!! So I know!!!

Also, this child obviously has autistic problems. in my opinion trying to analyze the "why" of it isn't helpful because these kids thought processes are different. Anxiety IS big with Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-not otherwise specified, and it can be everything from changing from one activity to another to crossing the street (I knew one Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kid who was terrified to cross the street even if a car was three blocks down--he thought he'd get hit). Is he getting good interventions for the Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-not otherwise specified or is he being treated with "behavioral incentives" (they rarely work with kids who have this neurological difference). Also, medications don't work on all kids with PDDs.

Now I know he has a slew of other diagnosis. too, but are you content, in your mind, that he has all of them? Do you think the doctors have this correct? Also, in my opinion threatening to send him away is useless. Kids on the autism spectrum do very poorly in RTCs--those centers are for behavioral problems, not neurological differences. I think you are trying too hard to analyze "why is he doing this?" in my opinion he's doing this because he is different and reacts to life differently, and you can't change that--but with interventions he can be normalized. What kind of classroom is he in? Do the teachers understand Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-not otherwise specified?

Has this child ever seen a neuropsychologist? in my opinion whoever diagnosed him did not nail his problems or suggest the righ type of help as he is not doing well. That happens when you have the wrong diagnosis and the child is put on medications that don't address his particular problems. I suggest (and, yes, it's tiring) another neuropsychologist evaluation. You can think yourself crazy with these kids, and still not change anything.

This boy needs special interventions for his Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) issues and I have a feeling this is getting swept under the rug.

Good luck whatever you decide.

 

[Wiped Out]

Shari,
First off hugs. When you are dealing with the violence day in and day out it is so very wearing. Be gentle with yourself. As Fran said apologize and do better next time.

It does sound like something is not right with medications or something. When my difficult child gets to the point of being violent every day, I am on the phone a lot with the psychiatrist.

If his last blood draw was 5 months ago he may need it checked again. I know when my difficult child was on Depakote he had to have blood draws every month with no exceptions according to our psychiatrist.

 

[klmno]

Shari, I agree that you need to forgive yourself- apologize to him and explain that Mom's make mistakes and say things they shouldn't sometimes, too. You and he will get past this.

When I asked about blood tests- I actually meant the kind a pediatrician gives to check for iron, glucose, etc. I was just curious because I noticed in both difficult child and me that when we are even a little hungry or at certain times of day, we both get very jittery- but we also get very agitated. It is more than the typical agitation from having a late lunch- I can tell because I've lived with it most my life and have a million tests for it. But now that I see it in difficult child, too, it makes me want to revisit the cause of it. Anyway- I was just curious.

I do believe there is something going on with your son that he is not in control of. I'm sure you must be at wits end and it's worse because the psychiatrists and others really don't seem to know for sure or you wouldn't have received 5 different diagnosis's. When I felt that way with difficult child, I just took him away for a weekend and forgot everything else and sat and talked, went to an inexpensive dinner, played a game, etc. It seemed to help us both.

I'm sorry you are going through this and wish I had more solid advice to offer...

 

[Shari]

Thanks all.

I am just at wits' end (no offense, Witz). This is going on a month of this behavior. I am so far behind at work and home and we're supposed to be leaving for "vacation" on Friday. Its not looking like much of a vacation if its going to be like this. The upside being he at least won't be at school.

I am not comfortable at all with his diagnosis'es. The "medical" team has poo-poo'ed the Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) diagnosis and restricted any access to therapies directed at that. I don't know which of the diagnosis'es fits, but I am seriously irritated that they won't even allow him to TRY the Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) center for therapy. Just try...if it works, I'll drive him to KC and pay out of pocket for it. I can work from there...

I know he processes things differently. We've known that for years. I don't know what it all means, but I don't think we have the answers we need yet, and the team here has basically stopped looking. The allergist/immunologist is trying to get him in for a second opinion in KC or StL but there's a 22 month wait for both.

I'm so incredibally frustrated. I think, largely, he can't help this, but I don't know how to help him, and I don't know what else to do to try.

He is just like his bio dad. His bio dad's mom is 2 credit hours away from her masters in psyche. That doesn't make her an expert, but she busted her trying to help bio dad 40 years ago. Just like I'm busting mine now. I'm so afraid its not going to do any good.

Not trying to borrow trouble, just....so many things flying around my head...mostly, just how do I maintain my life/job/home/sanity and continue to live with difficult child like this? There's got to be answers, but what are they...

 

[Big Bad Kitty]

Oh hun.

Being that I am going through much the same, I have no advice. Just very understanding hugs.

 

[totoro]

Not a lot to offer. I am here with you. I too am feeling the frustration and stress of an unstable child.
I hate it when I get angry with K or N... I almost yelled at N tonight because she is fixating on swimming tomorrow. She has a list of things and the order of how they HAVE to be done. Well we are having rain for the first time in a couple of months and it is actually windy and cool! She has reminded husband and I about her list about 11 times now. I started to lose my temper, but stopped. I looked at her little face and remembered she can't help it.
I tried to explain to her that she may change her mind, we may do something "more fun" who knows, things change.
So she says, "I will never change my mind"
Between her and K I just about lose it everyday. It is so hard, no-one ever prepared us for this!

One thing is husband is reading Dr. Mani Pavuluri's new book, "What works for Bipolar kids: help and hope for parents"
He is blown away by it. He is waiting until I read it before we start working with it together.
She has great tips even for kids with all disorders. A lot on No Negativity. A lot of Cognitive Behavior Therapy techniques.
She has charts which she suggests we print and post... lots of parenting and family tips.
I am actually excited to read it. I would read it even if K were not or suspected BiPolar (BP).

 

[TerryJ2]

Gosh, I don't know what to do ... does he settle down once he's home so you can ask him if he remembers the scene?
Did he bring up the comment you made about taking him away? He may have known you were just angry. But you may want to clarify that with-him.
Everyone here has better insight in reg. to the medications; we haven't used any of those.
I'm glad the teachers know to remove him and not panic when he has meltdowns.

 

[Shari]

He came home and cried to daddy for a while. And he was truly upset. Came to daddy and told him if he hurts people, they might take him away. Matter of factly, but very sad. Daddy said well, mommy was probably angry when she said that, but its true. When you get bigger, that could happen. And he bawled some more. He spent most of the night with daddy, thank goodness. But not 20 minutes later he was back to trying to whap up on easy child.

When I ask why he does this, he doesn't know. He generally truly gets upset about it, too. He knows he's bad, he wants to be good, but he can't "turn off his motor that drives him to be like that" is what he says. Again, the "motor" is something he's talked about for several years.

He rode with me to take easy child 2 to her friends' house to spend the night and fell asleep on the way home. (I drove a little slow and a little farther to allow it to happen). It was a little early, but I don't care. Not tonight.

His DevPed has emailed me this evening. She's got a new list of medications for me to think about. At least she had the presence to say his reaction to medications hasn't been positive, so she understands if I chose to not go that route at this time (gee, ya think?) . Abilify, INvega are supposed to be simliar to Risperdal, which he is responding too. Seroquel and Thorazine, Lamictal and Lithium were the others she tossed out there for me to think on. She also mentioned perhaps a behavior analysis program. That's a new one that I have not heard of, so I asked her to clarify that.

We have the M-tabs now, too. We just got those.

 

[DammitJanet]

Im sorry things are so rough.

I am going to throw some stuff out there just to think about...dont know if any of it could work, would work, is totally off the wall...etc. I think Invega might be a worthwhile try, maybe lamictal...lithium as last resort because of the seizures. I would stay away from keppra because it tends to make some people more violent.

How does he do one on one in very calm settings? I have heard you say he works well outside with the lifestock. Do you think maybe it would work to get say a tutor from the school for homebound services for a year or two and basically homeschool him in his "safe" environment with the animals and let him learn at his own pace. Maybe give his system time to grow. You could supplement some therapies for Sensory Integration Disorder (SID) with things you learn online. You might have to just wing it and invent your own program.

Im just thinking outloud here.

 

[BusynMember]

You know what? Take him to a neuropsychologist, even if he's seen one before. He's older now. It's total garbage that he have five diagnosis. and nobody REALLY knows what is wrong yet they are denying him Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) interventions when he may very well have it (bipolar is a common misdx. of Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD)).
I would get him set up with a neuropsychologist and not worry about medications. I've been on a ton of medications, and they are just as apt to make you worse as better OR sometimes they just dope you to nothingness. This is something people don't like to talk about, but sometimes "he's better" could mean "he's so doped up that he's no longer a behavior problem." I've been to the point of stupidness due to drugs.
I also think it's best not to involve three or four professionals as nobody gets to know him THAT well and everyone has his own opinion and it gets very confusing. At this point, his professional team isn't helping him one bit. They are throwing drugs at him and denying him Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) services...pfffft.
in my opinion get a new professional to see him...again I strongly recommend a neuropsychologist. And consider that this bunch just doesn't "get" your son. And that maybe he needs to work closely with one person rather than a team (a team isn't always the greatest).
Having BiPolar (BP) myself and my son having Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD), I've seen my fair share of professionals. Sadly, you have to kiss a lot of frogs to find a prince. It is tiring, confusing, and mindboggling, but it is so worth it when somebody finally "gets" your child and your child actually improves.
I would seek different help. These people aren't doing anything for him and there are too many people going in different directions. I know that drove me insane and didn't help my son. (((Hugs)))

 

[Shari]

MWM - his devped mentioned in this last email about behavior analysis. She's talking about a service that's provided thru the autism center here - isn't there a form of behavior intervention that's called something similar to this? I guess I'm stupid enough to hope she's coming around now that I've jumped thru her hoops and her ADD medications aren't working. I'm not saying he is or isn't on the spectrum, I'm just irritated that services are available, its been repeatedly suggested, and she's denying the chance for him to even try.

In the conversation with dad tonight, dad was trying to reassure him. He told him several times that all he had to do to make sure that never happened was to not hurt people. One would think the answer to this would be to say "OK, I won't hurt people" (even if he's 6 and you know it won't last more than 5 minutes, you'd still expect to hear "ok"). NEVER once did difficult child say "ok". He kept saying "But daddy, I love mommy so much." Dad had to go at it from a totally different approach.

 

[witzend]

You know, M's summer school program used to do this to me. I'd get to the school, and they'd race up to me to tell me what BS stuff he had pulled that day. That way I was sure to be good and PO'd at him the moment I got him into the car and we'd have a fight. Every stinking day.

In hindsight, I should have directed those people to make a list or set aside a time to talk privately with me without getting me all riled up and mad at him for something he didn't do to me. They need to deal with it or tell us he can't go there.