thoughts anyone??? ideas for when he is in full refusal mode....

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by buddy, Mar 11, 2012.

  1. buddy

    buddy New Member

    I wrote this at the end of a post on another thread but decided it was enough of a different topic to ask for your thoughts here.

    Background: two days ago I let Q start going outside again. It has been a long time because of the trauma and issues from way back when he had the medication. reaction and a few incidents when coming home with his Integrated Listening Systems (ILS) workers. (running off to see kids down the sidewalk and refusing to come in for a while). The only reason I would have liked a cold long winter was to avoid this issue for a longer time. But it as inevitable.

    The first day he did amazing. So, the next day he was allowed out and he had an issue with rock throwing at girls and I got a call and had to struggle to forcibly get him into the house. So, the next day he really had to prove himself and at about 1 in the afternoon I finally let him try. He did great. We went to horseback riding and came home and I let him have more time but we agreed to a time to come in (considering medications and not wanting to risk ruining what was a good day outside).................

    Here is what I wrote:
    I can talk to our home psychologist about this, have used up much of our time with him on the stupid school stuff. I know a huge reason that this is worse is my state emotionally starting yesterday and probably this week....and of course the other huge issues that are going on. I imagine that (from experience) when that settles down we both will be in a better place to work on things again.

    I have to say, he tried really negotiating all of this with me this morning and I refused. he has not said much but is asking kindly for things and accepting the reality of no outside today (stinks for us because it is sunny and in the sixties again).... I think we will pack the dog up and go to a park.
  2. DDD

    DDD Well-Known Member

    It does sound like you are past due for getting yourself in a healthier state. The stress has been relentless and you have coped like the #1 Warrior Mom...but taking care of your needs is the most important step before tending to his new sets of needs. Sometimes, in my experience, it is necessary to take a mental/emotional break in order to feel confident with required decisions. Sending hugs of the most caring sort your way. DDD
  3. TeDo

    TeDo Guest

    Oh hon, I hear you. If it were difficult child 1, we agree on a specific TIME when he will come in. If he won't do that, then he doesn't leave the house. We also agree on consequences before he leaves the house. One solution we have used is that for every 5 minutes he's late coming in OR if he fights me to come in, he loses an hour of play time the next day. We Plan B a lot. I also try not to let things carry over to the next day because the intent is lost on him. We DO carry things over when there is a clear agreement before he leaves that it will happen. For difficult child 1, I make HIM put it in writing before he leaves so he can't later try to tell me "I said X" or I never said A" or "I meant B". difficult child 1 is VERY good at trying to pull that stuff.

    Not sure if that helps. difficult child 1 does much better when we agree on expectations and consequences BEFORE they happen.
  4. StressedM0mma

    StressedM0mma Active Member

    Dee, I am going to restate something that you once told me. You need to take care of you. If you do not take care of yourself, you will be no good for Q. You need to get to the doctor. I hope you have a good day at the park.
  5. whatamess

    whatamess New Member

    I think you prepared for the worst (his potential refusal) by creating a plan (that's good). But, then, even when he was being very appropriate, this battle prevention plan was enforced. This is inflexibility on our part (I say our because I live this too). If he doing well, interacting appropriately why bring him in, why not have a talk and renegotiate the time? I think you and I both know, Q was in a good place and that is why you were able to enforce the plan, but if he was in a bad place-no matter what plan-you wouldn't be able to enforce it. I think sometimes we are fooling ourselves into thinking we have control over this, when it was really just a good/bad day for the child. Obviously, we have to have a plan-it makes us feel better and when our kids are in a good place it creates boundaries- but believing there is one failsafe, foolproof plan to make everything go well with our kiddos is not reality. Perhaps, since you have created this boundary-the time to come in- you can continue with that plan, but add the caveat that if he is doing well that at the designated time you two can negotiate whether additonal time can happen.
  6. buddy

    buddy New Member

    I did struggle with that, I really do think it was my rigidity mostly. My fear is that while he was having a good day, the day time medications, primarily the Concerta and the last dose of Ritalin was going to wear off by 9:15ish, not an option to give another dose and so I knew I was facing rebound along with no medications following that. So, it was not an arbitrary time and I DID give him a half dose of Ritalin since I can do prn doses if we have some special event to go to that goes late into the evening. I should have just re-negotiated that he could stay if he took the medications. It stinks that I would have to be out that late too though. I was crabby and tired.
  7. buddy

    buddy New Member

    for sure am going to do this....I totally believe what I said and one month could be a fluke but this is showing a pattern and much more intense than normal PMS. I will go, thanks (and hugs)
  8. buddy

    buddy New Member

    that is what we did, so I am sticking to it, just dont think it is going to stop him in the future. It is helping for today though and I am using that short term benefit to recover. His brain is really thinking. Trying to come up with all kinds of what if I can show you I can control my following directions for three days ??? THEN can we do X??

    He is watching the weather channel and getting all excited to see if he can wear shorts since they are saying 70's for a couple of days this week. Amazing.

    I was shocked that when he saw I was crying he was actually trying to comfort me instead of being mean sounding about it as he usually is. I hardly ever cry around him. (unless a sad movie or something) Have your boys ever just said forget it and when faced with the consequences just taken off??? Your kids can go out and about without you right? Even going in to change the laundry got me in trouble this week. He is limited and frustrated by the fact that I have to be with him. I tried letting Integrated Listening Systems (ILS) do it but he got really super disrespectful to them in front of all the kids and it was ruining what we had built up with them so I said no more of that.

    DDD-I agree, I won't put it off.
    thanks for the support!
  9. Malika

    Malika Well-Known Member

    Hi buddy. I do like the sound of what whatamess said... And that said, this is something I really struggle with myself. Occasionally I exacerbate problems for both of us because I am rigidly sticking to something I have decided. In my case, it is often something trivial (like what shoes he wears to school...) However, I do think this "rigidity" is a sign of stress... I am expressing emotions about something major, like the frustration, difficulty and sometimes loneliness of dealing with a sometimes oppositional and difficult child alone, and pinning it on to something apparently minor. This may be what is happening with you. Or it may not. But I do know that there are two of you, you and Q, and you are both equally valuable and worthy of care, compassion and attention.
  10. buddy

    buddy New Member

    I agree that this is a big part of it. I know I got panicked because I was so locked in to what if...with the medications wearing off and all....I wish it was an easy one thing is the issue kind of solution. I am sure it is one of those, My issues, medication issues, his state, etc...kind of things.
  11. Malika

    Malika Well-Known Member

    You are bound to feel anxious and fearful of what may happen when the medications wear off. I'd be the same... Dealing with a different child in a world that has little tolerance of difference is one of the hardest things.
  12. TeDo

    TeDo Guest

    <Like> Love that sentiment Malika!! I think you are completely correct on ALL counts. 1 stressed, more-rigid-than usual person +1 stressed, rigid, impulsive person = Minor Disaster.

    Yes, Buddy, my kids do go places without me watching. I realize that's where we are so different and it's reading about your struggles with this that make me remember how fortunate I am. The only times difficult child 1 has EVER just taken off because he didn't want to face consequences was when he was on the *bad* medications. When he's "in his right mind" he KNOWS better than to try that. He learned that lesson the hard way a long time ago. The problem we ran into when I tried whatamess' suggestion was that difficult child 1 began trying to negotiate ALL the time after we'd agreed on something. That's why we have a "no negotiating after the fact" rule now. We decide everything before the fact. If I give an inch difficult child 1 will take a mile OR two. If he tries to negotiate, I simply remind him WE already did and that by complying with our original plan, he gets to keep his freedom tomorrow. If not, he looses that privilege but STILL has to come in NOW anyway.
  13. whatamess

    whatamess New Member

    Hey Buddy, you wrote that you were tired, it was getting late, Q's medications were wearing off...all those things are valid reasons to come in for the night. I wrote my post with the impression that the clock struck the hour and Q was coming in no matter what. Again, your reasons to end the night were valid. Hope you are feeling better soon. :)
  14. Ktllc

    Ktllc New Member

    Buddy, you are dealing with an extraordinary child, but keep in mind he is a teenager and he will claim his "independance" like any other growing kid. Of course, independance will NOT have the same meaning. But although you reasons were 100% legit, his were too! I believe your issue is part of having a child growing up, thinking more for himself with the added twist of his disabilities.
    When he comforted you (great social skill!), maybe you can express that you are tired. Therefor you need him to stick to the plan even more. Is it possible to have such a conversation with him? Can you plan ahead and allow x number of renegotation a week? And maybe have a no negotiation card for yourself when things are going good but you have your own reasons?
    What is wonderful: your ability to sort things out and analize all the events. Can you share some (obviously not all) of it with Q so he feels included in the planning process?
  15. buddy

    buddy New Member

    I still think you are right though! I probably didn't fill in all the details since I was just spilling it all out with emotion, lol. I think you are right that a BIG part of it was I felt stuck in what I said, and the worry about what if I dont follow through. But it was so complicated by those other things that I didn't know how to dig out of it. Does that even make sense. Maybe the truth is there is no answer, it is just going to be this hard because he is so difficult. I could have just ignored my state, and given him another dose and been up for longer. He did come in at 930 ish so maybe I am not looking at this right.

    I always make my brain hurt, HaHa
  16. Nikki88

    Nikki88 New Member

    That is so so true!!

    Hang in there Buddy!!!
  17. buddy

    buddy New Member

    I love that idea Ktllc, I like the idea of using visuals to say the amount of negotiations and using them up. He of course says I always say no (funny my critics think I always must say yes), and yes, I agree his reasons were legit. We did process a little more today. I did explain that since he does take medicine to help him to be able to be out and having fun, when that medicine wears off it becomes more tricky (he knows that and how it is in the morning too) so he has to trust that my rules are to make it so he can go back many days to have fun with friends, to protect him from a bad situation happening and people choosing not to include him (which he promptly gave examples of so I knew he really did understand).

    Anyway, I think using the visuals would not only show him the limit but would show him the number of times we did get to change the plan.

    I honestly think if I would have tried to talk at the time he was cuddling with me he would have turned it off and said some pretty mean things, he was worried and in part was trying to avoid too much of a consequence. But I learned long ago to not worry too much about his motivation and wonder if he really cares, it is more important that he can at least approach a situation as if he cares and be polite and appropriate. That has taken a long time to teach him.

    For sure he is pushing for his independence. He has less chance to do things than the grade 2 kids in our area. He simply has never once been successful without someone to guide him in when tricky times happen. And the results are awful, last year a physical game became a physical fight...really intense with his finally running into our little wooded patch and not coming out for hours. The kids went in and made up with him, etc. I had just left for a minute because I had seen him start to escalate and I went to get another mom to help me out.... to get other kids away if it went bad and sure enough by the time we got back everyone was hysterical. THere was a little kid visiting who was saying he was going to cut my son's balls off and on and on and I could not get this kid to SHUT UP. I finally asked his big sister to take him home because it was not helping (he doesn't live here). So I bet a huge part of this is my fear of how awful a few things have become. I think I am past things but they do stick in my mind.
  18. lovelyboy

    lovelyboy Member

    Hi Buddy...I so understand your fears!!!!!
    My son has that determind mindset together with the potential threatening attitude + his impulsivity that really makes me stressed for him growing up!
    What sometimes works for us....dont know at all if it will work for Q.....I bought my son a very cheap cell I phone him....just say, 15 minutes left, then 10 min, then 5..... Then, please come home now.
    Or I setthe cellphone alarm for 10 min before homecoming time, and 5 min....then he knows he must come.....
    Or I tell him, the moment he see the streetlights switching on it becomes a safety issue, so this tells you to come home.
    What also works is if the other kids start buying into your rules.....I have one child that brings my son home when it gets dark.....its a bit late to my liking but my son listens to him.....
  19. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Buddy...I am just going to brainstorm somethings with you and you can just take and pick what you think might be something that could work for you.

    Number one I think you need something that will let you be on a more even keel for awhile. I suggest long acting xanax that you can take at night and will last 24 hours. Start with 1 or 2 mgs and it will work well on you.

    Has Q ever tried one of the benzo's for his anxiety? He seems really over the top with it and it may be something you might want to consider asking the doctor about. There is buspar if you dont want to go with a benzo but if you do just want to do a prn medication, they have a klonopin melt tab that you could get into him that would act quickly because it enters the bloodstream through the mucus system in the mouth.

    As far as him playing him playing outside and you having to be there. I am assuming you are sitting on your front stoop or front yard someplace. Do you have your laptop with you or an ebook reader that you can take with you? You can put ereader software on your phone if you dont have an ereader and sit there and read a book.

    To set the time for him so you dont have to call him and possibly embarrass him in front of his friends, get a light bulb holder that you can put three light bulbs green, one yellow and one red. He is used to that pattern. When green is on he knows he is free to play. If you see that the playing is getting a little rough or out of could simply blow a whistle and turn the light to yellow. When he calms back down..turn it back to green. When it is time to start winding down...yell down to him that he has 15 minutes left to play...or text him....and turn the light to yellow. Then when it is time to come in turn the light to red. He is expected to come in to the house when the light is on red within 10 minutes and he gets a treat. If he doesnt, he misses his treat and you have to go get him. For right now I would just make the punishment be missing the treat.. Make the treat something he likes....say little debbie snack cakes or a popcycle or something like that. Maybe you could even find NASCAR racing cards. Like baseball cards. Everytime he comes in on time he gets one card.
  20. llamafarm

    llamafarm New Member

    Sometimes you have got to give in to give yourself a break. Make it sound like renegotiation, but let yourself off the hook. Outside time is so difficult when you have to be supervising your child who should be old enough to navigate playing with others alone! I find that the most frustrating and I find it even more frustrating when it is that time of the month! I have a feeling my difficult child can sense my bit of insanity and tries to take advantage at that time. I often don't realize it until after the fact. Flexibility is so much harder when we are hormonal. Disrespect seems so much more insulting as well. As one of the teachers in a parenting class told me (one of the FEW nuggets I have chosen to remember), if you don't have the energy to fight it to the end, let him get off easy that time. This way he feels he has worked through things and not bullied or argued or fought and won the fight. Instead you know you just let it go. I am not sure how you would be able to apply that to his throwing rocks and then his expecting this to be acceptable, but it does seem like you have had him pay some sort of consequence at this point. Let yourself off the hook, make it seem reasonable and find a way to let him out again in some limited way. I feel for you, and I am thinking of you.