tk toilet issue

[Dixies_fire]

This morning I woke tk up for school like I do every day. She went to the bathroom and was taking a long time in there. I knocked on her door because it was time for breakfast. She opened the door it was obvious she was playing in the water, which ordinarily would of been a quick "come on out of there" but I got smacked in the face with a stench. I looked at her toilet and it was filled to the lid with toilet paper and urine. Obviously had not been flushed since I cleaned her bathroom a week ago. I walked in flushed the toilet and turned around and lost it.
My hubs has been telling boyo to use his and tk's bathroom trying to phase out the tromping through our bedroom for boyo to use ours. Boyo started going to the bathroom down stairs instead of using the bathroom tk uses. I had no idea why I figured it was one of the idiosyncrasies of parenting a 3 year old. I now understand why.
I spanked tk and cleaned the toilet and sent her down to have breakfast. While she was having breakfast I asked her why of course no answer. I asked her if she did this at school or her one friend's house and she said no. I asked her why do it here then. There's no way she hasn't noticed that.
I texted her biodad and vented because we had a conversation yesterday about tk's issues and he told me he thought she was fine once again and I told him he hasn't seen her in a year except for Easter weekend(because he didn't live here and lived 1500 miles away) He was grossed out but god only knows if it registered. I straight told him "you still think nothing is wrong?" You know she's not raised this way.
I am freaking out a little bit because to was supposed to move in with him at the end of the school year. I've been trying to make sure he takes her to counseling if she stays with him. Because its clear to me she needs help. These arrangements were made before his girlfriend came up pregnant again and before he actually moved up here. He is having all kinds of difficulty getting into an apartment here because he is supposed to make four times the amount of rent to qualify for an apartment, and houses to rent here are more expensive. When he does qualify it will be for a two bedroom not a three. He already has a 1 year old with his girlfriend and now is expecting another and wants to move our 8 year old into a bedroom with the toddler. It's so obvious this isn't going to work out. I know he wants to have tk back in his life and truthfully she might behave better for him but clearly this is not going to work out. I wish he would be a realist about this because tk doesn't have to go but I need to make plans for her to come with us when we move.


I just feel like a total failure. My friend who knows tk well told me this is not my fault and I am doing the best I can. I know that's true but I am just at a loss. After tk visited her dad over Easter she was on an up cycle we spent some time just us and had a few giggles. Hubs was in the hospital and boyo stayed with dad another week we really had a good time. Then hubs got out of the hospital and she started trickling into all the tk behavior and then brother was coming home and she lost whatever thread that was keeping her together enough to spend good time with me.

 

[Dixies_fire]

I'm really starting to wonder if she will have a normal life. Right now she has one friend who's younger. All of her school mates are our very close neighbors because of being on a military base if she wanted to hang with these kids she very well could. But she isn't seeking other friendships.

She is obviously very high functioning because most people unless they lived here would not know there is anything wrong. They could just think maybe she's difficult or high spirited or whatever 1000 ways we use to describe a kid who had a hard time making friends.

 

[Liahona]

Most of my kids don't flush. Its a sound sensory thing. Elsie will flush twice. Once before she goes and once after. So far she is the only one who will. I try to keep the window open for the bathroom (not pleasant in winter.)

Until TK is stable it isn't a good idea for her to share a room with a toddler. When difficult child 1 was 5 we were in a 2 bedroom place and had to move his bed into the living room. It just wasn't safe for difficult child 2.

There don't seem to be any good answers right now. Plus, she is probably reacting to the high stress level in your home. Hopefully things will calm down after the surgery and after TK gets to a neuropych for a diagnosis.

 

[Dixies_fire]

She has skipped a few times flushing in this house even to the extent that her bathroom was a little ripe but never to the extent I found today, the toilet paper was about to pop out of the toilet and I have no idea how it managed to flush. Her bathroom is an interior bathroom no windows. And I have enough normal issues with boyo him being a boy and three years old and putting his hands in every dirty thing he can find including toilets occasionally I hope he doesn't pick up stuff from her. I'm actually proud he's been avoiding her bathroom.

Also what's upsetting about it is that we never had potty issues with her other then she potty trained a little late like close to three which seems to be kind of common these days.

She just seems to be back sliding.

I would feel responsible if something happened to their toddler when she moved in because he didn't believe me.

Just very frustrated thanks for listening Liahona

 

[buddy]

Not checking the bathroom that long is probably not a good idea for lots of reasons, I still have to monitor what is in the bathroom because of Q. He will put things down the sink too.

He likes to see how long it takes to make a toilet smell...it became a thing to laugh about. If i got upset, it fueled the behavior. I flushed it if i ever found it that way...no fan fare. Now the behavior is gone. I'll never fully trust him though....i check his room and the bathroom daily at least.

We just don't get to relax about these things like a typical situation would allow.

Does she know how to clean toilets? Q has to help clean. If he uses too much paper in a dirty toilet and clogs it, he had to get the paper out. I give him gloves and plastic bags. He then has to clean the toilet. Boy did that stop the clogging behaviors. But it never worked if i got angry, which I did do first. Just matter of fact for that stuff.

 

[BusynMember]

I don't have a clue why you feel guilty. You taught her to flush. For some reason, probably being wired differently, she doesn't. Maybe she likes the smell of the urine or the feel...it's not "normal" but with some disorders it happens. Hey, some kids smear poop on the walls. They like the smell and the feel. Many have sensory issues and autistic spectrum problems. They often go together. Senosry disorder rarely stands by itself. Her behavior smacks more of sensory problems rather than your ODD diagnosis, which in my opinion is pretty useless. I don't think she can help her behavior. She needs interventions. JMO.

A lot of k ids forget to flush. but they don't play with their urine or feces. That's something more. She could be compelled to do it.

If you think sending her to dad's will solve her problems, however, I doubt it considering his attitude.

Just a side note: I don't find it helpful to spank difficult children. I don't think they "learn" from it and often feel it makes hitting ok if you are angry.

I forgot: Has she ever had a total evaluation to see what they find? A neuropsychologist evaluation or something like that? I would do that before you send her to dad.

 

[susiestar]

What a yucky thing to find. There was no way to let my kids have their own bathroom that I didn't end up in or walking past every day, so we didn't have this problem. I know another mom who had to deal with it though. Her husband insisted that spanking was the way to stop the problem of the toilet stinking due to not being flushed for long periods. He was right. The toilet did stop stinking. Sadly the spankings led to the child being afraid of the toilet and finding other places and things to use instead of the potty. By the time he started using other things, it was too late to undo the damage caused by the spankings.

I found that the more I could link something good, fun, yummy, positive to the behavior that I wanted, and the more I ignored what I didn't or insisted that the child deal with the negative aspects like cleaning up the mess (age and abilty appropriate of course), the better and more lasting the results were. We DO know that spankiing children has the long term result of increasing violence in our children as there is credible reasearch on this. The problem with spanking a difficult child is that they make links that would NEVER occur to most people and it is incredibly hard to break those links (spanking for not flushing means don't use the potty at all ever type link) once they are formed.

While it may be a PITA, try linking candy or a toy to flushing right after use. Think about what tk likes and wants and use that to motivate flushing rather than spanking for not flushing.

Sometimes we have to stop and think about what we want when we are teaching our children things. I am not totally against spanking but many times it can be more of a problem than a help. It is so hard to tell if a child will link the consequence to the action and it can help to look at discipline as logically as possible. There is a book that I found very helpful with this "Don't Shoot THe Dog". It is written by an animal trainer and is more aimed at getting adults to do what you want, but I found it changed how I thought about punishment and hte ultimate goal of punishment. I also fuond the Love and Logic books super helpful. If you ahven't read them, they are amazing. Parenting your Child iwth Love and Logic by Fay and Kline is a good book to start with. Even though tk is 8, you may find great help from the ideas/techniques in their book for kids up to age six called "Love and Logic: Magic for Early Childhood".

I probably would have lost it for a few moments if I found a toilet that had been used but not flushed for a week. GROSS and the smell/germs are a big trigger for me. So I totally understand the spanking. It would be interesting to hear why tk wanted to do that. Was she simply hating the sound of the flush or something else about flushing or was she liking the smell or keeping the waste in the toilet? Knowing that could be a big help when working to stop the problem.

You have nothing to feel guilty about. Your child si wired differently. Lots of kids are. Normal truly does not exist except in math and statistics. As an adult who is wired differently, I can honestly say that my life has not been made awful or less because of my differences. It has been enriched and given me opportunities that others never had a clue existed, much less the opportunity to take advantage of. Some things were not good along the way, but I would still pick my wired differently self over anyone's wired typically self!

I hope you don't get any other surprises like that on any time soon!

 

[Dixies_fire]

I generally don't spank as much anymore. Was kind of a gut reaction. I've been spanking less and less over the past year. And y'all are right it doesn't seem to do much good when I do it and the more of a reaction I give her about anything the worse every behavior gets.

I'm just angry.
She has always had little quirks.
Always always. But it blows my mind that she exhibiting more and worse behavior daily.

No no neuropsychologist yet. Waiting to get into developmental pediatrician.

I asked her why she did it and of course no answer.

As far as her living with her dad it was a decision made before hubs started getting help. Had surgery scheduled or anything. We knew what the problem was with him but there was no help coming. They were clashing in a major way. I was at the point where I was going to have to relocate by myself with all three children somewhere else in a hurry with no job or safety net at the other side. I thought.... To would be better off in a more stable environment like with her dad, whom she adores because he has a lot of the same issues she has in retrospect and seems to handle the behavior that seems outlandish to me, better. I wasn't thinking her problems would just go away or saying I couldn't deal with it anymore or what have you. I was trying to think of her welfare. Her dad wasn't moving here at the time he had a house in alabama where he had always lived that had room for her. It surprised the **** out of me when he moved up here when I told him honestly about the differences in cost of living between here and there and that I didn't think it was a great idea because honestly if my husband wasn't stationed here I would not want to live here. I've told him repeatedly now that I don't think tk moving in with him now is a great idea since he doesn't have space and doesn't think she has any issues when occasionally she's violent and is having more and more off behavior.

I've been making a circuit of her bedroom after she is asleep and when she goes to school but the bathroom thing never occurred to me. We've been having issues of her shredding and cutting paper in her closet when she's supposed to be sleeping. I'm very close to locking up her bedroom and bathroom and moving her bed to the library in the interest of less privacy.


Anyway could probably meander through this thread for another hour but I need to get productive.

 

[Dixies_fire]

Is not a great idea ^^^

 

[buddy]

Instead of moving her out of her room, how about revamping her room?

Make it a sensory room, bean bag chair in the closet, little battery operated push light, a box of paper she can shred and it is ok to rip apart....(my son needed that for a stress buster)....

I think it is probably worth the effort to teach bathroom use through a task board (pictures or words above her toilet stating the order of things, use toilet, flush, wash hands, dry hands.... kind of thing....

then just add a daily cue during bedtime routine, or just check yourself to make sure it is done.

I know it can get super frustrating, but we do have to remind ourselves (and I am not shaming you....I have gotten upset with my son many times when the truth is, he was doing his best or made a mistake based on his disability) they really do generally do the best they can do. Things that are not important to them often are off their radar and they may be sincere when they say they will never do it again.....but then they dont do it. Usually the only things that get done are the ones that directly impact their way of thinking.

But it is all teachable.

It is not meant to be personal.

Hang in there, it is a huge challenge to live this way and you are totally right. The issues will likely get bigger as she gets bigger in many ways...Other issues will fall away. It is the nature of the beast. Appropriate therapies like Occupational Therapist (OT), social skills therapies, communication therapies, etc....do really help.

 

[TerryJ2]

Liahona, great insight.
Dixiesfire, I used to spank, too, and then I learned that all it did was make difficult child remember that I was mad, but he had no idea why. Up until he was 12, we still had toilet issues. This is not going to go away overnight. (Sorry, but true.)
I would talk to her tomorrow, in a calm voice, and take her to the bathroom, and walk her through toileting. Act as though she has never done it before. If she hesitates, ask her what is bothering her; the noise? The water? Does she think other people are listening? You don't know what goes through these kids' heads unless you ask them. They do not think like we do.
Best of luck.

 

[frustrated04]

I'm not new here, but not a frequent poster. Despite the lack of posts, I'm very familiar with pretty severe behavioral issues. My very difficult child is also 8 years old.

I'm shocked that an 8 year old with issues (of ANY sort!) has a bathroom that is left unchecked for more than a day. I'm extremely shocked that an 8 year old was not only punished, but spanked, over not flushing a toilet. Yes it's gross, but not a big deal.

All us parents have to choose our battles carefully, even more carefully when our kids are not perfectly neuro typical. Toilet habits are not a battle to fight over. Something to work on, but not while fighting.

I would never expect a rational answer as to why she doesn't flush. It could be as complex as an anxiety that she can't express, or a simple not wanting to.

It's also normal for kids to behave and act differently at home vs school or friends.

Create a picture schedule for using the bathroom and retrain her. As part of your routine, check the bathroom at least two times each day.

Create another schedule for daily and weekly bathroom cleaning for her. If she's fairly typical in her physical development, it should be an easy transition.

If you'd like help creating the schedules, let me know. I actually enjoy doing this.

I moved my son from the standard boring schedules to customized ones with pictures and characters that he loves. Keeping the schedules funny helps with the transition.

 

[Dixies_fire]

She hasn't ever HAD this behavior. She doesn't even have accidents at night.
She's never done that before. We have for most of her life only had one bathroom, this house which is on an army post has 2 full baths and one water closet down stairs. I have a full bathroom in my room and hers is on the hallway . The initial plan was to bathe my 3 year old in that bathroom that tk uses, he decided pretty much when we moved in he would rather use my potty and bath tub. So that bathroom was never supposed to be hers. I didn't choose for her to have a private bath. I didn't get a choice over the house that housing chose for us because of the number of children we have. I clean it regularly. It's across the hall from my laundry room so I see it quite regularly it hadn't really occurred to me that she has been closing the door even when she isn't in there. So quite honestly with no abnormal bathroom behavior I didn't check. Maybe to many people bathroom issues are part of their kids difficult child issues until last week it wasn't one of ours.

I've started checking on the way to wake her up in the morning and on the way to tuck her in at night. Last night she didn't flush but it was obvious she had only used it one time. I had her flush and that was the end of it.

What kind of charts?

I was thinking of putting something up on her wall in front of the potty that said
Use
Wipe
Flush
Wash hands

But admittedly that was about the only idea I had.
She uses the bathroom by herself I haven't really seen a reason to change that
Especially since she is the only girl and anywhere I go my 3 year old and 5 month old tend to follow. She has become sensitive to her privacy. And as she has dark hair on her legs though no other symptoms of puberty I am trying to be respectful of her as a person who is growing up.

Other than the spanking which I have already addressed. Do you have any thoughts? Should I not be trying to let her groom herself?
I can only go with what I know and I know at 8 I was allowed to tend to my needs on my own. I was also the baby and had much older siblings and lived in a all female house hold and we had absolutely no privacy really and I don't think that's healthy either.

 

[frustrated04]

If no prior toileting problems, make some funny "flush the toilet" signs. My little dude loves Family Guy, so I use the evil monkey for a lot of his reminders.

I just don't see failing to flush as a "behavior." Of course, I could post my wits end behavior with my little dude, and if the background is not in the post, it could look a little nuts.

Other than spanking, you can remind her to go flush. You can have a casual chat about it without accusing her of doing anything.

 

[Dixies_fire]

It wasn't failing to flush once, it was failing to flush for long enough that used toilet paper was rising out of the toilet and urine almost filled the whole pot. And stank so bad it slapped you in the face when you opened the door.

It's completely possible that I'm over reacting. It might be a ME thing as when I was deployed I had to use port a potties that were in better condition then my pumpkin's toilet that day, I also had to use facilities that bore a striking resemblance to that toilet. It wasn't fun or something I ever expected to see in my home from someone who has never previously done that.
Shrugs
Like I said it could definitely be me. I'm here because I'm trying to help her with the three hundred other behaviors that she has had since she spawned forth. But by no means am I saint.
Part of tk's issues come across to me as just plain defiant and I have no clue if this is a defiant one or "I have a sensory issue" that she just happens to have never displayed before.

I also posted about 20 minutes after I got her out the door to school I hadn't completely regained my composure about it.

And part of my frustration of course was and is, is with myself, I don't know what I am doing wrong and of course it feels like everything I do is wrong when she is coming up with new behaviors when I was just starting to get a handle on the other ones.

 

[frustrated04]

My upstairs toilet doesn't work properly, so on the rare occasion that it is used, it sits. I completely understand the smell you're talking about!

I glanced at another post you made, so I understand that this could be the tip of an iceberg thing.

What are some other behaviors? Why do you feel she "only" had ODD? (my personal belief is that ODD is just a set of symptoms that comes out when underlying problems are not resolved)

Yesterday, an incredibly rough day, I decided to track little dude's cursing. For the past year I had my head in the sand and thought I was over exaggerating when saying he curses over 100 times a day. Well, 127 is over 100, so I found out that I wasn't exaggerating.

His cursing is not even a behavior I'm targeting yet! I just wanted to know.

 

[Dixies_fire]

Well I've revised my working hypothesis since coming to this group.

I thought it was just defiant behavior but some of the things these ladies talk about I've noticed in tk before.

Tk
Extremely smart
Performs over grade level
Emotional maturity is younger
Has issues making friends own age
Not so much the keeping of them as the making of them. She has one solid friend who just turned seven.
She's bossy
She's not over sensitive if anything under sensitive
Doesn't react to people or things like most kids do
Has only recently started wanting to be hugged or touched.
She doesn't have interests she has obsessions
Has a slight motor delay. Can't open a soda can or the top of a water bottle. Took a long time about opening doors
Underweight
Doesn't eat well but eating better than she ever has before now but has issues with texture or colors and separating things on a plate. For six years she would eat approximately 5 foods. Now it's up to about 20.
Will get in trouble for the same thing every day and still keeps doing it.
Doesn't care how other people feel.
More heart broken over the death of a cat than the death of her grand father who she was close to.
Seems like the only things she absolutely doesn't do are the things that have been drilled into her since birth. Don't hit mom so she hits brother instead.
Takes out most of her anger on her brother
Gets angry with very little provocation
"He ate my cookie" after she tried to shake him to death
"He touched my towel" she pounced on him tackling him to the ground"
Manipulative
Literal
Nothing really penetrates.
She is either happy or angry there is no sad or anything in between.
She never shuts up
She asks questions over and over that she knows the answer to.
A lot of people think I'm mental for thinking anything is wrong with her most people would not notice what's going on with her on a short visit or over a day or two.
Her baby sitter was the first person to come to me about the same things I was noticing.
My husband who is her step father before he completely lost his grip mentioned some of the same things that concerned me.
My mom who previously told me I was crazy for thinking anything was wrong with her spent a month with us and no longer thinks I'm crazy.

Tk doesn't curse. I'm glad she doesn't but it might make me feel better about her emotional growth if I ever caught her just once.

She doesn't notice boys not even "he's cute!"

I know boys don't really notice girls at that age but tk's younger best friend thinks this kids music singer Matty b is dreamy and wants to marry him when she gets older. I am not really sure if that's part of it or not but I know I had a couple of crushes by that age I thought prince William was dreamy.

I need to put together a list for every time someone asks me this question so I can notice quicker what behaviors are sticking around when they started that kind of thing.

 

[InsaneCdn]

Start a parent report - it's not called exactly that on site resources, but it's in there somewhere (or find a recent post by Susiestar... she's got the link in her signature).

It's a great way to pull together - and KEEP together - all these bits and pieces of valuable info.

Next, start a journal or log. Notes about the normal structure points (wake/sleep/eat/school/etc.), plus anything different (school field day, or illness, or anything else outside of normal pattern), plus behaviors. It takes weeks, at least, sometimes a few months, but looking back over a journal or log, patterns often emerge.

I could hazard a guess at possible dxes - but I'm just a parent. She's probably a combination of things, which makes it more "interesting".

 

[Dixies_fire]

Interesting is right.

I'll find that link and appropriate a journal would probably help with the other kids if any thing comes up in the future with them. Although thankfully boyo seems pretty normal in comparison and never fails to make me crack up or smile.

I miss having that connection with tk.

How do you deal with that when you have other kids?

I want to feel as ecstatic over her as I do with my other kids not looking around the corner for the next thing.

 

[TerryJ2]

GREAT list, Dixies_fire. This will really help for a proper diagnosis, and for YOU, too, to see that there are lots of issues. She's got sensory issues (neurological), social issues, and a host of other things. Take it one step at a time.