Lothlorien
Active Member
Star, if I was a juror in this case and it was presented as Murder I in this case, with all of that evidence, I'd convict.
Understanding or stone thrower?
- Thread starter Star*
- Start date
Marguerite
Active Member
I don't think getting into the legalities of this case or that one, is what this thread is about. Our legal systems are different between our countries and I believe even in the US, between states. We get US legal shows on Aussie TV and husband & I often sit and shake our heads in disbelief at the evidence not allowed, and the reasons it's not allowed. How can a juror truly assess a case if the evidence has not been presented in full?
All judgement is relative. We are asked to apply a b/w judgement to something that is relative and generally coloured grey (even when we might think the grey is really black - sometimes it's charcoal instead).
On the shaken baby cases, there generally is more to the cases. One thing has stood out for me in so many of the cases of children harmed - too often, the perpetrator, usually male, is a step-parent or boyfriend. And if you look in the animal kingdom especially among predators, you find similar situations. A lion that comes in and takes over a pride will often kill the cubs born to the previous pride male (the one he's supplanted). That way the lionesses will come back into season sooner and the new male has a chance to get them pregnant and see the new offspring raised to independence. The sooner the supplanting male does this, the better his chance of successfully passing his genes on to the next generation. The most successful lions are the ones with more offpsring surviving to reproduce.
I think wolves do this too. Ans I know there are other animal species that do this.
The thing is - we are human, we tend to think of ourselves as above animals, but too often we find this same scenario - a new boyfriend or husband is jealous or resentful of the offpsring by a previous partner, and one way or another, does the utmost to get rid of them.
This is NOT the norm in human society but it does happen often enough to be something we should always be alert for in our lives (should we live in such a situation) or if WE are the new partner, to be wary of the occurrence of these feelings in ourselves.
Sometimes we're closer to the animal kingdom than we like to think.
Marg
All judgement is relative. We are asked to apply a b/w judgement to something that is relative and generally coloured grey (even when we might think the grey is really black - sometimes it's charcoal instead).
On the shaken baby cases, there generally is more to the cases. One thing has stood out for me in so many of the cases of children harmed - too often, the perpetrator, usually male, is a step-parent or boyfriend. And if you look in the animal kingdom especially among predators, you find similar situations. A lion that comes in and takes over a pride will often kill the cubs born to the previous pride male (the one he's supplanted). That way the lionesses will come back into season sooner and the new male has a chance to get them pregnant and see the new offspring raised to independence. The sooner the supplanting male does this, the better his chance of successfully passing his genes on to the next generation. The most successful lions are the ones with more offpsring surviving to reproduce.
I think wolves do this too. Ans I know there are other animal species that do this.
The thing is - we are human, we tend to think of ourselves as above animals, but too often we find this same scenario - a new boyfriend or husband is jealous or resentful of the offpsring by a previous partner, and one way or another, does the utmost to get rid of them.
This is NOT the norm in human society but it does happen often enough to be something we should always be alert for in our lives (should we live in such a situation) or if WE are the new partner, to be wary of the occurrence of these feelings in ourselves.
Sometimes we're closer to the animal kingdom than we like to think.
Marg
F
FlipFlops
Guest
Wow, what a thread. It has really gone through several issues since the original questions.
Am I more compassionate now that I have a difficult child. Yes. Way less judgemental. I was a know it all before. Now just I think I know almost everything.
I have a friend with multiple physically disabled children. They have been in the public eye to some degree and involved in fundraising for a non-profit. She tells me about some of the blogs people put up. People can be horrible.
Our theory is that if someone can blame whatever problem on something, anything, then that means they are safe from it happening to them. "If you didn't do such and such, your child would not have blah blah blah." But most of us on here know sometimes you can do everything pretty much right and still turn out with a difficult child. Also, if you can blame something on someone, then you can wash your hands of it and go on. You can tuck it away in a box. That could be why the media and public "convict" before someone even goes to court.
On the total flip side, I do actually think legal stuff should be more black and white a little. Someone else said something about not knowing what someone else's intent was. Are they really remorseful or faking it? Can't know that sometimes.
Animal kingdom comments by Marguerite. Impressive. You tapped on a very interesting topic to me. One I have really pondered lately. I agree that we aren't as sophisticated as we think we are, and there might be good reasons for it.
In hindsight, being judgemental and black and white was a whole lot easier than having to ponder everything.
Am I more compassionate now that I have a difficult child. Yes. Way less judgemental. I was a know it all before. Now just I think I know almost everything.
I have a friend with multiple physically disabled children. They have been in the public eye to some degree and involved in fundraising for a non-profit. She tells me about some of the blogs people put up. People can be horrible.
Our theory is that if someone can blame whatever problem on something, anything, then that means they are safe from it happening to them. "If you didn't do such and such, your child would not have blah blah blah." But most of us on here know sometimes you can do everything pretty much right and still turn out with a difficult child. Also, if you can blame something on someone, then you can wash your hands of it and go on. You can tuck it away in a box. That could be why the media and public "convict" before someone even goes to court.
On the total flip side, I do actually think legal stuff should be more black and white a little. Someone else said something about not knowing what someone else's intent was. Are they really remorseful or faking it? Can't know that sometimes.
Animal kingdom comments by Marguerite. Impressive. You tapped on a very interesting topic to me. One I have really pondered lately. I agree that we aren't as sophisticated as we think we are, and there might be good reasons for it.
In hindsight, being judgemental and black and white was a whole lot easier than having to ponder everything.
Marguerite
Active Member
I studied animal behaviour (among other things). Fascinating topic.
You raised an interesting point about blame. We do, I feel, tend to look for who to blame whenever something goes wrong. It's a habit we get into and our kids pick it up from us. But a harder lesson to learn (and a more difficult one for our kids to learn) is that sometimes it's not about blame. Sometimes bad things happen to good people and nobody is to blame.
THis was discussed on Aussie radio on Tuesday afternoon. There is a case here of a 12 year old girl who got pregnant. The case is a bit confusing, there is conflicting information, but the media are (various members of them) screaming for the blood of our childrens protective services people. The view is - someone is to blame for tihs girl getting pregnant.
A similar story, an email we were sent a couple of days ago - our former government Foreign Minister Alecander Downer has written an article about how people get into trouble in foreign countries and then scream that the government isn't doing enough to rescue them. Downer's point is that governments shouldn't be responsible, when they have done everything they could to protect people in the first plce. People who go to a country despite warnings in place, who then scream for help when the warnings bear fruit - the government will help but not because they HAVE to.
Again, I repeat - sometimes it's not about blame, or personal responsibility. Sometimes bad things just happen.
Of course, in cases of shaken baby, where there is clearly someone who has done the deed and someone who has suffered - that is different. But we do need to learn to keep looking beyond because sometimes it's not about blame. Or sometimes, the blame can go deeper and wider. If we are too simplistic, we can miss this and end up allowing a problem to perpetuate.
I remember reading a lot of books as a kid, especially books about girls in boarding school etc. In a lot of those books there were bullies described, both other children and adults, and the physical interactions were described. I remember reading in a number of different books where an adult shook a child until their teeth rattled. Back then this was considered - not acceptable, perhaps, since it wasn't the good guys doing this - tolerable, possible, almost normal. The damage it could do was not fully recognised back then.
A story I remember my mother telling me:
My eldest sister loved babies and children but when growing up also lacked confidence. In this story I think my sister must have been about ten years old. There was a baby - it could have been one of my siblings, it could have been acousin or a friend. My sister wanted to hold the baby and my mother let her. Then while holding the baby, my sister began to have a panic attack. "I'm scared I'll drop the baby and hurt her," she worried.
Instead ofrushing in to grab the baby, my mother said to her, "Put the baby on the floor. Then walk away. The baby can't fall, from the floor. She will be safe. It's OK. Always remember, you can always put the baby on the floor and leave the room. It's much better than taking any risks with a baby."
When we later had our own kids and at times felt overwhelmed our mother would say to us, "If you're not coping and you feel yourself losing control, put the baby down in her cot or on the floor, and walk away. Leave the room, leave the house if necessary. Even if the baby is crying, walk away if you're not coping. It's better to do this, than risk harming the baby."
She was wise ahead of her time, my mother.
There was an Aussie TV film starring Jackie Weaver called "Do I have to Kill My CHild?"
It was made in 1980, Jackie did a brilliant job. Previously known for sexpot roles, or comedy - she played a very vulnerable and inexperienced mother asking for help.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0217365/
I remember reading an interview with her during the making of this film - in one scene she had to yell at the baby to shut up. She hated doing it. When they filmed it with a real baby, Jackie yelled and the baby began to cry. Immediately the actress/mother instinct kicked in, she dropped out of character, burst into tears and rushed to pick up and comfort the baby.
The director kept that bit in, because although Jackie hadn't intended it, she had shown the dichotomy of the maternal confusions. In a lot of shaken baby cases, the mother doesn't mean to cause harm. In this story, the mother knew she wasn't coping but couldn't get anyone to listen to her, to help her keep her baby safe.
Jackie herself was a single mother in her teens.
I found the review on the movie page interesting. I wish I could get a copy of the film, it was really good. But I'd have to contact the film archives and I think I would need to be a member of a film club for that.
Interestingly, I noted the involvement of Ann Deveson in the movie. Screenplay plus producer, I think. Ann Deveson lost a son to schizophrenia. She's a journalist and writer of note, now an activist for mental health services. So no wonder the film was well-written and well-made.
Marg
You raised an interesting point about blame. We do, I feel, tend to look for who to blame whenever something goes wrong. It's a habit we get into and our kids pick it up from us. But a harder lesson to learn (and a more difficult one for our kids to learn) is that sometimes it's not about blame. Sometimes bad things happen to good people and nobody is to blame.
THis was discussed on Aussie radio on Tuesday afternoon. There is a case here of a 12 year old girl who got pregnant. The case is a bit confusing, there is conflicting information, but the media are (various members of them) screaming for the blood of our childrens protective services people. The view is - someone is to blame for tihs girl getting pregnant.
A similar story, an email we were sent a couple of days ago - our former government Foreign Minister Alecander Downer has written an article about how people get into trouble in foreign countries and then scream that the government isn't doing enough to rescue them. Downer's point is that governments shouldn't be responsible, when they have done everything they could to protect people in the first plce. People who go to a country despite warnings in place, who then scream for help when the warnings bear fruit - the government will help but not because they HAVE to.
Again, I repeat - sometimes it's not about blame, or personal responsibility. Sometimes bad things just happen.
Of course, in cases of shaken baby, where there is clearly someone who has done the deed and someone who has suffered - that is different. But we do need to learn to keep looking beyond because sometimes it's not about blame. Or sometimes, the blame can go deeper and wider. If we are too simplistic, we can miss this and end up allowing a problem to perpetuate.
I remember reading a lot of books as a kid, especially books about girls in boarding school etc. In a lot of those books there were bullies described, both other children and adults, and the physical interactions were described. I remember reading in a number of different books where an adult shook a child until their teeth rattled. Back then this was considered - not acceptable, perhaps, since it wasn't the good guys doing this - tolerable, possible, almost normal. The damage it could do was not fully recognised back then.
A story I remember my mother telling me:
My eldest sister loved babies and children but when growing up also lacked confidence. In this story I think my sister must have been about ten years old. There was a baby - it could have been one of my siblings, it could have been acousin or a friend. My sister wanted to hold the baby and my mother let her. Then while holding the baby, my sister began to have a panic attack. "I'm scared I'll drop the baby and hurt her," she worried.
Instead ofrushing in to grab the baby, my mother said to her, "Put the baby on the floor. Then walk away. The baby can't fall, from the floor. She will be safe. It's OK. Always remember, you can always put the baby on the floor and leave the room. It's much better than taking any risks with a baby."
When we later had our own kids and at times felt overwhelmed our mother would say to us, "If you're not coping and you feel yourself losing control, put the baby down in her cot or on the floor, and walk away. Leave the room, leave the house if necessary. Even if the baby is crying, walk away if you're not coping. It's better to do this, than risk harming the baby."
She was wise ahead of her time, my mother.
There was an Aussie TV film starring Jackie Weaver called "Do I have to Kill My CHild?"
It was made in 1980, Jackie did a brilliant job. Previously known for sexpot roles, or comedy - she played a very vulnerable and inexperienced mother asking for help.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0217365/
I remember reading an interview with her during the making of this film - in one scene she had to yell at the baby to shut up. She hated doing it. When they filmed it with a real baby, Jackie yelled and the baby began to cry. Immediately the actress/mother instinct kicked in, she dropped out of character, burst into tears and rushed to pick up and comfort the baby.
The director kept that bit in, because although Jackie hadn't intended it, she had shown the dichotomy of the maternal confusions. In a lot of shaken baby cases, the mother doesn't mean to cause harm. In this story, the mother knew she wasn't coping but couldn't get anyone to listen to her, to help her keep her baby safe.
Jackie herself was a single mother in her teens.
I found the review on the movie page interesting. I wish I could get a copy of the film, it was really good. But I'd have to contact the film archives and I think I would need to be a member of a film club for that.
Interestingly, I noted the involvement of Ann Deveson in the movie. Screenplay plus producer, I think. Ann Deveson lost a son to schizophrenia. She's a journalist and writer of note, now an activist for mental health services. So no wonder the film was well-written and well-made.
Marg
Last edited:
Hound dog
Nana's are Beautiful
Star
I was severely abused as a child. Sexually, physically, mentally, and emotionally tortured for 18 long years.
I am no saint. But I have never abused my children or any child.
Abuse is no excuse in my book. He's lucky I'm not on that jury.
With my background, I had an infant who slept less than 3 hours a day and spent the rest screaming at the top of his lungs.
I didn't shake him, I didn't raise my voice at him, I sat and cried with him when the sleep deprovation got to be too much. I took him to docs to try to find out what was wrong.
I made a conscious decision not to abuse my kids, not to repeat what was done to me. And moved 2 states away to keep my family distant from my kids. When I felt pushed to the wall, I'd stop and do the opposite of what had been done to me.
Why? Because being the victim all those years......I know exactly the damage it does to a child.
Past abuse is no excuse. Ignorance is no excuse. How do you prove ignorance??
My ex sister in law left 6 kids in a burning building. They never proved she set the fire. Her story was that she panicked. Maybe she did. But they still gave her 10 years behind bars. in my opinion she deserved it. She didn't run for help.....she just ran.
in my opinion this guy........well, what I'd honestly like to do to him would be much worse than him getting a simple injection, falling asleep and never waking up again with a chance that some idiot in political office somewhere will decide to do a good deed, or that the prison's are too full and expensive and set him free to do this to another innocent child.
As far as I'm concerned, there is no excuse good enough to justify abuse/murder of a child. Not every case warrants the death penalty. But this one does.
Sorry. This one hits a little close to home.
I was severely abused as a child. Sexually, physically, mentally, and emotionally tortured for 18 long years.
I am no saint. But I have never abused my children or any child.
Abuse is no excuse in my book. He's lucky I'm not on that jury.
With my background, I had an infant who slept less than 3 hours a day and spent the rest screaming at the top of his lungs.
I didn't shake him, I didn't raise my voice at him, I sat and cried with him when the sleep deprovation got to be too much. I took him to docs to try to find out what was wrong.
I made a conscious decision not to abuse my kids, not to repeat what was done to me. And moved 2 states away to keep my family distant from my kids. When I felt pushed to the wall, I'd stop and do the opposite of what had been done to me.
Why? Because being the victim all those years......I know exactly the damage it does to a child.
Past abuse is no excuse. Ignorance is no excuse. How do you prove ignorance??
My ex sister in law left 6 kids in a burning building. They never proved she set the fire. Her story was that she panicked. Maybe she did. But they still gave her 10 years behind bars. in my opinion she deserved it. She didn't run for help.....she just ran.
in my opinion this guy........well, what I'd honestly like to do to him would be much worse than him getting a simple injection, falling asleep and never waking up again with a chance that some idiot in political office somewhere will decide to do a good deed, or that the prison's are too full and expensive and set him free to do this to another innocent child.
As far as I'm concerned, there is no excuse good enough to justify abuse/murder of a child.
Not every case warrants the death penalty. But this one does.Sorry. This one hits a little close to home.
Fran
Former desparate mom
Understanding intent is good but it does not resolve one of personal responsibility for the act of harm on an innocent. I understand that there are many instances where a parent is unprepared for the rigors of a difficult child and parenthood or they have a history of abuse. I have sympathy but it is still not an excuse. We can't control who has children or how many or how young but we can deal out consequences for harming another.
Comparisons to the animal kingdom is right on, in my humble opinion. I tend to see behaviors in difficult children that are a little less evolved or civilized. Looking at animals helps in understanding. There are so many times the male who comes in hurts the children. Yet often the step father is good, kind, hard working man but we don't read about them. We don't read about the good stepmom who tries hard to make a home for a stepchild. We only have the horror stories to go on. Being a step parent is one of the most difficult roles to take on if you intend to do it right. It's pretty much thankless because everyone is scrutinizing your childrearing, homemaking, work history and moral character.
This man who destroyed this young child is a vicious sociopath and regardless of his personality disorder has to pay the consequence for this horrendous crime. Death or life in prison doesn't matter to me if life means life.
Comparisons to the animal kingdom is right on, in my humble opinion. I tend to see behaviors in difficult children that are a little less evolved or civilized. Looking at animals helps in understanding. There are so many times the male who comes in hurts the children. Yet often the step father is good, kind, hard working man but we don't read about them. We don't read about the good stepmom who tries hard to make a home for a stepchild. We only have the horror stories to go on. Being a step parent is one of the most difficult roles to take on if you intend to do it right. It's pretty much thankless because everyone is scrutinizing your childrearing, homemaking, work history and moral character.
This man who destroyed this young child is a vicious sociopath and regardless of his personality disorder has to pay the consequence for this horrendous crime. Death or life in prison doesn't matter to me if life means life.
muttmeister
Well-Known Member
This has been a really interesting discussion. One thing I've been thinking about is how our perceptions have changed. Has anybody read John Updike's Rabbit, Run lately? I'm not sure when it was first written but it was quite a few years ago. In the book, if you haven't read it, his wife, in a drunken stupor, ACCIDENTALY drowns their baby in the bathtub. In the book she was an object of pity and there seemed to be no legal repurcussions. I couldn't help thinking as I read the book just this year that if that happened now, she would definitely be charged with something. There would be a trial and she would probably do some time. I don't know if that means we are becoming more aware of these things happening or if it means we are becoming more vindictive. As a mother, I can only believe that if you are even half-way normal, that after something like that nothing the legal system could do to you would be as bad a punishment as you would inflict on yourself for the rest of your life
Of course, that is far different than somebody who abuses a child on purpose. I still don't believe in the death penalty but if they could inflict the same bodily injury on the perpetrator as he did on the child, I might vote for that. I think one reason some people are willing to accept the death penalty is that our system sometimes SAYS that somebody is getting a life sentence and then we hear that in a few years that person is eligible for release. As far as something like that is concerned, I think a life sentence should mean what it says. If that were enforced I think there would be fewer people in favor of executing people. Just my opinion.
Of course, that is far different than somebody who abuses a child on purpose. I still don't believe in the death penalty but if they could inflict the same bodily injury on the perpetrator as he did on the child, I might vote for that. I think one reason some people are willing to accept the death penalty is that our system sometimes SAYS that somebody is getting a life sentence and then we hear that in a few years that person is eligible for release. As far as something like that is concerned, I think a life sentence should mean what it says. If that were enforced I think there would be fewer people in favor of executing people. Just my opinion.
house of cards
New Member
Several years ago, I read a book called something like "But what if they lived?" It was written by a lawyer/child advocate. The stories were of children abused to the point of death by their parent, the point was that if they had lived, society was going to be hurt by their actions/rage. I really thing we need to work very hard to prevent abuse. I also believe there comes a time when the person is beyond "rehabilitation" and society just needs to be protected from that monster...but that probably means we failed to protect that child when we could have.
Star*
call 911........call 911
The judge gave him his death sentence. He finally broke down and cried and said he was sorry. I think that went a long way in saying he could have had a chance if his family had ever cared to stop living like they were. Violence through the generations needs to stop. His ex wife is going to the prison when they kill him and watch him die. I believe she will be sorry for watching. I think people have an idea of what happens, that they FINALLY get what's coming, and then because we're not as vicious or vindictive as we think we are it will leave a lasting horrible memory. Especially since she has another child with him. What does she say to that little girl? I wanted to be there when your dad died for killing your sister when she was 4 months old?
I bet no one from his family comes forward to apologize for never giving him a chance. I know at some point we know right from wrong - but after living in a house ridden with crisis how do you do that - how do you say THIS is right and THAT is wrong - after watching wrong be the right all your life?
And AGAIN in our news this morning - a man kicked his 3 year old in the head and stomach over potty training issues. The baby is in intensive care in critical condition. I doubt she makes it. The families other 3 children were taken into foster care. I can't imagine HOW scared those kids are and how upset the Mother must be.
I bet no one from his family comes forward to apologize for never giving him a chance. I know at some point we know right from wrong - but after living in a house ridden with crisis how do you do that - how do you say THIS is right and THAT is wrong - after watching wrong be the right all your life?
And AGAIN in our news this morning - a man kicked his 3 year old in the head and stomach over potty training issues. The baby is in intensive care in critical condition. I doubt she makes it. The families other 3 children were taken into foster care. I can't imagine HOW scared those kids are and how upset the Mother must be.
Star*
call 911........call 911
WOW -
I'm very proud to know all of you. Your words are lovely and just.
I know this has to stop. I see it every day with Dude and worry, hope, wonder if we got enough therapy in time or if he's going to perpetuate the violence with his own relationships. And possibly into his own family someday.
It has to stop. This is just nuts.
But I DO like the idea of letting a person have back what they did......excellent point. There is a woman in Iran right now who was blinded by acid. She chose to have her attacker blinded by acid instead of put to death. She said he NEEDS TO KNOW what it is like to be the way she is now due to his behavior -and I think - WOW - if that really works - why aren't we doing it?
I'm very proud to know all of you. Your words are lovely and just.
I know this has to stop. I see it every day with Dude and worry, hope, wonder if we got enough therapy in time or if he's going to perpetuate the violence with his own relationships. And possibly into his own family someday.
It has to stop. This is just nuts.
But I DO like the idea of letting a person have back what they did......excellent point. There is a woman in Iran right now who was blinded by acid. She chose to have her attacker blinded by acid instead of put to death. She said he NEEDS TO KNOW what it is like to be the way she is now due to his behavior -and I think - WOW - if that really works - why aren't we doing it?
Hound dog
Nana's are Beautiful
Star, I still have no sympathy for the man. Someone who doesn't break down until he finds out he's going to die is not sorry for the act he committed. He's simply sorry he's going to die.
I can't comment on the one reported this morning. Not enough facts. But if he did it, he needs locked up and away from children. I'm surprised that cps took the other kids. They don't usually do that......not around here anyway. They won't remove a child unless abuse/neglect can be proven for each individual child. Which in my opinion is wrong, but that's how they do it. I have a feeling there is more to this story than just a Dad having a tantrum over potty training.
I can't comment on the one reported this morning. Not enough facts. But if he did it, he needs locked up and away from children. I'm surprised that cps took the other kids. They don't usually do that......not around here anyway. They won't remove a child unless abuse/neglect can be proven for each individual child. Which in my opinion is wrong, but that's how they do it. I have a feeling there is more to this story than just a Dad having a tantrum over potty training.
Star*
call 911........call 911
Daisy -
He asked the jury to put him to death in his first trial. The newspaper didn't report that very well. I don't know why this case got under my skin so badly - and I can't IMAGINE someone saying the prosecutor was "over-zealous" in his closing arguments (complete with fake re-enactment action on how the little baby died) and I know we have choices - despite how we're raised - but I think it raised the question with me-
How do you choose when everything your whole life taught to you by your parents is supposed to be the right way and it was not? Right becomes wrong and wrong becomes right - and you do grow up and hopefully never make the same mistakes your parents did - but did he really have a chance? I dunno - I'm not taking sides - on if he should or should not be put to death. My thoughts were just - how do you know what's right -when you never learned it from parents or family?
He asked the jury to put him to death in his first trial. The newspaper didn't report that very well. I don't know why this case got under my skin so badly - and I can't IMAGINE someone saying the prosecutor was "over-zealous" in his closing arguments (complete with fake re-enactment action on how the little baby died) and I know we have choices - despite how we're raised - but I think it raised the question with me-
How do you choose when everything your whole life taught to you by your parents is supposed to be the right way and it was not? Right becomes wrong and wrong becomes right - and you do grow up and hopefully never make the same mistakes your parents did - but did he really have a chance? I dunno - I'm not taking sides - on if he should or should not be put to death. My thoughts were just - how do you know what's right -when you never learned it from parents or family?
tiredmommy
Well-Known Member
Star... I grew up with neglectful parents. We lived in squalid conditions. My parents were hopelessly broken people that weren't capable of guiding or directing my brother or me. We weren't abused, mind you, and that may be the difference. My brother and I both have our fair share of problems related to our childhood but we didn't turn out to be neglectful or abusive parents. Our parents didn't guide us but others did. Aunts, uncles, grandparents, clergy, teachers, neighbors, parents of friends. We each had different people step in and show us right from wrong and how to function in the world.
*My bff's mom taught me how to clean, cook and do laundry between the ages of 8 & 10... so we wouldn't have to have tv dinners nightly and there would be clean dishes, clean laundry and the trash taken out.
*My third grade teacher told me that the world was full of poor, dirty children that were going nowhere in their life and it was up to me to change that about myself.
*My first boyfriend's mom told me that I would not always live at home with my father and that things would get better (she also taught me the proper way to set a table).
*My aunt told me I could do great things when I grew up, no matter where I came from. She also told me that my parents' problems were not my fault and were not mine to worry about.
These are just a few of the many, many interventions I had throughout my childhood. I believe they helped me to see past my immediate circumstances and made me more resilient. It makes me wonder why these people didn't have the same in their childhood.
*My bff's mom taught me how to clean, cook and do laundry between the ages of 8 & 10... so we wouldn't have to have tv dinners nightly and there would be clean dishes, clean laundry and the trash taken out.
*My third grade teacher told me that the world was full of poor, dirty children that were going nowhere in their life and it was up to me to change that about myself.
*My first boyfriend's mom told me that I would not always live at home with my father and that things would get better (she also taught me the proper way to set a table).
*My aunt told me I could do great things when I grew up, no matter where I came from. She also told me that my parents' problems were not my fault and were not mine to worry about.
These are just a few of the many, many interventions I had throughout my childhood. I believe they helped me to see past my immediate circumstances and made me more resilient. It makes me wonder why these people didn't have the same in their childhood.
AnnieO
Shooting from the Hip
Ya know what? You guys are great. I am so proud to be part of this board. I love all of the different, well-thought-out points of view.
There are so many people who hurt their children. Psychological abuse is almost worse because the physical goes away, it fades (I'm bypassing the residual psychological scars from physical abuse, bear with me here)... but the emotional damage... Well.
The worst part of it all is that CPS can't, or won't, do much (especially to a mother, sorry, guys but it's true) if there's no physical proof. Never mind that the child is terrified, crying, has physiological symptoms... If there's no bruise, the accused smiles and lies and the investigation is closed. (<Actual happening> Child: Mom punched me in the head! Mother: I wouldn't do a thing like that. CPS Worker: OK, she said she didn't do it, we're closing it as unfounded.)
I posted in another thread about the most likely person, statistically, to abuse a child is the biological mother's partner. Next up is biodad's partner, then mom, and finally dad. Now that's not every case, but the numbers point that out. But we hear about biodad in the media more than anything else.
I'm not saying it's right. Any abuse is wrong. I can understand the urge to do it, but when a person gives in to the urge... We're the adults, we are supposed to be able to control ourselves.
I don't care if he was abused. That's not a reason, it's an excuse.
There are so many people who hurt their children. Psychological abuse is almost worse because the physical goes away, it fades (I'm bypassing the residual psychological scars from physical abuse, bear with me here)... but the emotional damage... Well.
The worst part of it all is that CPS can't, or won't, do much (especially to a mother, sorry, guys but it's true) if there's no physical proof. Never mind that the child is terrified, crying, has physiological symptoms... If there's no bruise, the accused smiles and lies and the investigation is closed. (<Actual happening> Child: Mom punched me in the head! Mother: I wouldn't do a thing like that. CPS Worker: OK, she said she didn't do it, we're closing it as unfounded.)
I posted in another thread about the most likely person, statistically, to abuse a child is the biological mother's partner. Next up is biodad's partner, then mom, and finally dad. Now that's not every case, but the numbers point that out. But we hear about biodad in the media more than anything else.
I'm not saying it's right. Any abuse is wrong. I can understand the urge to do it, but when a person gives in to the urge... We're the adults, we are supposed to be able to control ourselves.
I don't care if he was abused. That's not a reason, it's an excuse.
timer lady
Queen of Hearts
I read all of the replies here; I'm in awe of the wisdom. However, I'm the wrong person to ask.
If it were up to me I'd hang each & every abusive negligent parent I come across - plain & simple. I have little sympathy for what's going on behind the scenes; a baby is a baby & needs nurturing, care & love.
The tweedles have brought me to my knees time & again - as a parent I took a break even if it meant just stepping out on the porch for a minute. If I needed 5 minutes I took it.
If it were up to me I'd hang each & every abusive negligent parent I come across - plain & simple. I have little sympathy for what's going on behind the scenes; a baby is a baby & needs nurturing, care & love.
The tweedles have brought me to my knees time & again - as a parent I took a break even if it meant just stepping out on the porch for a minute. If I needed 5 minutes I took it.
Star*
call 911........call 911
TM - thank you so much for your reply. My own Mother was abused in her home and had NO ONE - not one single person to tell her anything positive about herself or her life. She turned out the be the best Mother ever. When I tell her about the things that Dude does to me/others - she shakes her head and says repeatedly - "We all have choices." and leaves it at that. So I know where you are coming from. My Mom told me stories that were just brutal. I'm every so thankful she chose to be the kind of person she is with her children. WHen I bring things like this to her attention - she votes death penalty saying he had a choice. SHe makes NO excuses for monsters like this. She makes no excuses for her grandson's behavior either. She says he knows right from wrong - he chooses wrong 90% of the time - it gets him in trouble and then he's sorry - but she belives he's really only sorry he got caught. She may be right.
If I had been on the jury - for the man who was so violent to his child killing her - I would have had a hard time putting him to death - BECAUSE-
I think he deserved to live the rest of his life, every day, behind bars, without the possibility of parole. To kill him - let's him off easy from a life that didn't seem to be much as a child, wasn't anything as a teen, and in his early 20's caused him to abuse and kill his own child. I don't think he ever learned how to love or be loved. I would have a hard time putting a man to death for that. EVEN THOUGH - he admitted guilt 110%.
The case yesterday was a man who kicked his 3 year old in the head and stomach over potty training issues. He's ALSO from a sordid background and is being held in jail on 100,000.00 bond. The paper reports that he did ask in court several times about how the baby was. People here are outraged. My comment was that if he was having trouble with issues over potty training and kicked a 3 year old in the head making her severely retarded - now she's going to have potty training issues for the rest of her life.
So the question du'jor ladies -
Would this baby - be better off had the father killed it - KNOWING it's going to be severely mentally retarted, blind, deaf & have numerous complications to health for the rest of her life?
Woudl you give him the death penalty if you could for his act? Or should he spend the rest of his life in prison without the possibility of parole.
He admits to being guilty - and has been charged with endangerment of a child.
Sure didn't seem like much for what he did.
If I had been on the jury - for the man who was so violent to his child killing her - I would have had a hard time putting him to death - BECAUSE-
I think he deserved to live the rest of his life, every day, behind bars, without the possibility of parole. To kill him - let's him off easy from a life that didn't seem to be much as a child, wasn't anything as a teen, and in his early 20's caused him to abuse and kill his own child. I don't think he ever learned how to love or be loved. I would have a hard time putting a man to death for that. EVEN THOUGH - he admitted guilt 110%.
The case yesterday was a man who kicked his 3 year old in the head and stomach over potty training issues. He's ALSO from a sordid background and is being held in jail on 100,000.00 bond. The paper reports that he did ask in court several times about how the baby was. People here are outraged. My comment was that if he was having trouble with issues over potty training and kicked a 3 year old in the head making her severely retarded - now she's going to have potty training issues for the rest of her life.
So the question du'jor ladies -
Would this baby - be better off had the father killed it - KNOWING it's going to be severely mentally retarted, blind, deaf & have numerous complications to health for the rest of her life?
Woudl you give him the death penalty if you could for his act? Or should he spend the rest of his life in prison without the possibility of parole.
He admits to being guilty - and has been charged with endangerment of a child.
Sure didn't seem like much for what he did.
Mayapple5
New Member
My husband has worked in the Department of Corrections for almost 25 years. Do you have any idea what they do to baby/child abusers? I won't tell you here, but it isn't nice. To have these people (men or women) live their lives out in prison would be a life sentence of torture for them! I say let them think about what they did for the rest of their lives locked up behind bars and let the other inmates remind them about what they did!
Lothlorien
Active Member
Mayapple, that's comforting to know.
DammitJanet
Well-Known Member
How do you kick a 3 year old for potty training issues? Granted Im thrilled to be over the diaper days I still cant see getting that frustrated. Sheesh.
Yeah...he doesnt get death but he gets prison and that will be torture enough.
Yeah...he doesnt get death but he gets prison and that will be torture enough.
