What is forgiveness?

[witzend]

Thanks, Marg. It's been a tough couple of days. You're right. Whatever I call it, the past is the past. No one forgives future possible transgressions.

L's dad wrote an e-mail to me last night saying that he 'is looking out for L's best interests' and would 'take my concerns into consideration when making decisions about dealing with M.' Huh? M's is not his child! He's met M, to be certain, less than 50 times in 21 years. I forwarded it to husband, and he wrote back to bio-idiot 'Nuh-uh. M is not your kid and you don't want to make the mistake of stepping in because if it turns out badly we can and will point the finger at you. If any adults from the past are going to deal with him they will be guided by us, his parents.' L's Bio-idiot wrote back to husband, 'Oh, you misunderstood! I understand that it's not my place and I will not be a part of any reunification between L and M unless and until you ask. I'm sure that as adults they can handle it on their own.'

I am relieved, but still coming down off of my big worry jag. husband has a lifelong fear of doing anything that might be seen as aggressive, and in the past he has really not defended me or protected me in these situations. Most people see him as extremely easy going, but of course, when you live with it, you know it's . He has been on Paxil for about 8 weeks now, and admits that he feeling able to expand his comfort zone. I really had to push him to write that two or three sentences to bio-idiot last night because he wanted to go to bed after a long day out of town at work. I will use this to help husband to recognize how powerful he can be (for both of us!) when he speaks his mind.

 

[TerryJ2]

I will use this to help husband to recognize how powerful he can be (for both of us!) when he speaks his mind.

I love this. It would be a great start for a new thread.

 

[DazedandConfused]

If a person decides not to forgive someone (decides that they do not deserve forgiveness), does that person believe that they have better judgement than God?

I tread carefully here, but I would have to answer, yes, I do. For reasons I think are overwhelmingly obvious. But, I know that that sort of discussion is frowned upon here (for good reason). So, I will leave it at that.

And, no, I'm not angry at "god".

I have had many transgressions against done against me. Especially in childhood by my Father. He died nearly 18 months ago.I have never forgiven him. I do believe that in order to offer forgiveness it needs to be asked for and responsibility must be taken for the wrongdoings.

However, it came to a point that I wanted to let go of the resentment and bitterness I held against him. It was eating at, and hurting me. It was a process that involved me elimnating him from my life. I let it go. Yet, it wasn't forgiveness in my eyes. He never, ever, acknowledged the horrible things he did to me all of my childhood and into my early adult years. He would have continued to have hurt me had I allowed him back into my life. Heck, the man would have thrown me under a bus if he could have made a buck on it. Forgive? I don't think so.

For me, focusing my energy on the positive things in my life helped me to move beyond heavy baggage of anger I carried for years.

 

[tiredmommy]

Please, I have to request that all further discussion of forgiveness as it pertains to personal religous should be taken to PM.

 

[LittleDudesMom]

I'm sorry that I don't have the time right now and read all the replys. I did want to add my opinion however.

Quite simply, forgiveness is the gift that allows me to live my life. For me, if I don't forgive I don't move on. If I don't move on, I don't live the live I should live. I get bogged down in blame, in regret, in pain, in thoughts of retaliation, and the inability to take a step forward. I don't believe I am on this earth to stand still.

Forgiveness, to me, does not mean that I allow someone to get away with a terrible act. Forgiveness, to me, means that I understand a person had their own reason for doing what they did. It does not mean that I understand or agree with that reason. It does not mean that I forgive the act, it means that I forgive the person.

Forgiveness, to me, does not always mean that things are "hunky dorey" and go on as before. Forgiveness can mean moving forward in a new way, alone without that person. It can mean a new type of relationship with that person.

Forgiveness is a gift to both the giver and the receiver, even if the receiver never knows.

Forgiveness also comes from my faith. End of religion in this discussion!

So, to state it simply, forgiveness is necessary for me to live.

Sharon

 

[1905]

I wish,wish, wish I could forgive my own mother for the torture and abuse I endured by her. Normally I'm able to forgive anything and am a happy person. But just thinking about this person, causes me such anger. How do I get past this? I wish I knew how to forgive, or even let go. I haven't spoken to her in years, I do actually feel joy knowing she is punished by never seeing my kids. In theory, moving on is the right idea, but how do you do that?-Alyssa

 

[BusynMember]

What do you do if you were told, from little on, that YOU were bad and half believe you did such horrible things that you deserved it? Rationally, I pretty much realize that my mother's cruelty was because of her misperception of me and lack of understanding of mental illness (although I think SHE was also mentally ill), but 10 % of me still feels guilty. When I was at the sickest worst I DID say and do things that weren't appropriate. I apologized a billion times for my part in our rift, but she still was cruel--didn't want to meet my two youngest children, never called me even though I called her regularly, never said "I love you" back to me, and, as a final insult, chopped me out of her will. I don't care about the money--the hurt comes from being disregarded as if I didn't matter at all to her, as her firstborn. And I guess I didn't. But part of me thinks "Did I cause her to hate me this much?" HOW DO YOU GET PAST THAT? This has been eating at me for years. If anyone knows any books that could help, please let me know. I also posted this on Watercooler.

 

[witzend]

MWM, I wish I knew. Your mom does sound sick. Unfortunately for them and their generation, being sick just wasn't ever going to be acknowledged. Except to point the finger at someone else, that is.

My mom's 78th birthday was on Wednesday. I thought about calling, but I didn't. I know she wants a relationship, but she wants the same one where I am worthless and laughed about that I ran from 8 years ago. I can't do that again.

It still hurts. {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Big hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

 

[Sunlight]

so many of us have troubled moms. it is amazing that we are so compassionate given that we did not learn that from them.

as I got older I realized that my mom is ill. it is not my fault. I do not own the blame and no not own her perception of me or anyone else. it helped to have 6 siblings she also could not approve of...lol

 

[BusynMember]

I think what bugs me is that she worshipped my brother (who is NOT right in the head) and my sister got accolades too and she was wonderful to my sister's kids. I really do need to let them all go. I've tried having a relationship with my sister, but it brings up all the old wounds, and she thinks our mother was fine and what she did to me is ok.

 

[DazedandConfused]

I remember years ago when I worked with my Dad (I plead insanity on that choice). I ran, and helped, grow the company he started. I put my heart and soul into it. I was mainly responsible for it's 200% growth in 3 years. My younger brother, who also worked for him, would sometimes show up for work, and sometimes not. Dad never said made a fuss about that. He would even sometimes fall asleep on the job. And this was while sitting on heavy equipment.

I'll never forget a conversation I had with my Dad right before I left the company. He informs me that he is going to cut my salary by 20%, but my duties were going to be the same. "We have to make this company mean and lean" were his words to me. Then, in the very next breath he tells me how he is going to RAISE my brother's salary because "he wants to help him become more responsible". That was my Dad, always saving my brothers you-know-what. I'll never forget how my Dad gauged my reaction to my brother's raise. Like he knew he was being a complete amoral jerk by favoring on kid over the other, but hey it's just too much fun to watch the face of the kid that had been the most loyal to him up to that point.Of course, it only made my brother worse until he eventually became a full blown addict living on the streets.

And, as I write that, I feel the anger well up in me. Because, frankly, it deserves it! But, then I'll calm down, and focus my energy on things that are happening in my life now and put Dad, and my past, back on the shelf.

There is simply no one-size-fits-all moving on/forgiveness technique that is going to work for everyone. I think that each one of us has to forge a different path. Even if it's only just slightly. We can only point in the direct that worked for us.

Though, I think just by writing and sharing with us your struggle, you are already making a trail that will be just right for you.

In a way, my Dad got the last laugh on me, too. Actually, both me and my sister. That fantasically successful business I helped built? My Dad, being a addict gambler, ruined it within two years of my leaving. He could always do a great start up, and he was amazing with his ability with seing a trend, but he could never manage, and grow, his successes. I still cannot bear to drive by where the business used to be. It's just too painful. All that work down the drain and it simply didn't have to be that way.

Anyway, after the business ruin, my Dad began to have a series of health problems. He eventually died of cancer and didn't have a dime to his name (This after constantly reassurring me that he would have enough life insurance to cover his creamation).When he died I hadn't spoke to him in over five years. I just couldn't take it anymore.

Well, my sister and I ended up splitting the cost of cremation. It wasn't a whole lot of money, but still, in the end, that doggone creep make me shell out $$$. I just couldn't leave her with carrying the entire amount. My brother, new in recovery,of course, didn't have anything to contribute.

Deep cleansing breath.....

At this point, I have to switch gears on focus on MY life with MY family. That is where my energy needs to go.

I've gone on long enough about dear ole dad..

 

[TerryJ2]

In short, never lower yourself to the other person's level.
You, and many here, have done a great job.

 

[scent of cedar]

Witz, you were right about how much more difficult it is to maintain our balanced self in the face of someone we know would hurt us again without a second thought.

But that is what we are after. Nothing to do with the other guy, really. We want our balanced selves, our clear eyed selves, back. We refuse to give that person power over us in any way, ever again.

So, what needs to happen is that we somehow find the strength not to fall into victim mode where that person is concerned.

For me, the issue would not be forgiveness so much as quenching the lust of vengeance.

Because here's the thing. If I CAN take vengeance, then it is because the other person is weaker or less able than I am. So, if I DO take vengeance, what does that make me?

A bully and a coward.

As much a bully, and as much a coward, as the person who hurt me in my time of vulnerability.

It's not that any of us are permanent victims. It's that every one of us, at one time or another, has been vulnerable.

And in our time of vulnerability, instead of being strengthened and upheld by those we trusted, we were victimized.

So, for me at least, forgiving myself for having been powerless to stop the victimization could not occur until I had given up the lust of vengeance.

Here is something that helped me. It's from The Merchant of Venice.

The quality of Mercy is not strain'd
It falleth as the gentle rain from Heav'n
Upon the place beneath.

It is twice blest;
It blesseth him that gives and him
That takes.

Tis Mightiest in the Mighty.

~William Shakespeare


I'm pulling for you, Witz.

Barbara

 

[TerryJ2]

Oh, I've always loved that speech. :smile:

 

[Star*]

I miss my x......

but my aim is improving. And I forgive him while he did all that squirming that I'm not a better shot.

Thats not right is it?

OH...I can dream.