What Is Wrong with People and Our Laws?

[GoingNorth]

It's a fundamental belief in the Abrahamic religions where currently or at one time, bride prices were/are paid for virgin brides.

You see it in some of the offshoots of the Muslim faith, especially where they've gotten that faith mixed up with tribal customs (FGM is also part of this.)

It wasn't that long ago that Jews gave it up.

Some more extreme evangelical Christian sects are very patriarchal and while bride price is no longer charged (that I know of), the attitude of ownership of female members of the famiily by the family patriarch still remains.

This last attitude exists in all 3 Abrahamic faiths. at least in the fundamentalist versiions of them.

 

[BusynMember]

Well, im glad Jews gave it up. Although I am the only babyboomer I know who actually was a virgin when I got married at the ripe old age of 20, it was my own decision. And partly as a rebellion against my promiscuous peers. Plus I never really bought into organized religion anyway.

As rebellious as I was, a purity ball would not have gone over well...lol.

In my house it was not run by my dad at all Jewish or not, Mom ruled the roost. I thought t was like that in most Jewish families...mom ruled. Maybe not Orthodox, but we weren't. Dont onow much about Orthodox Judiasm.

I think my father's parents were match made in Russia or Germany. That marriage didnt work out too well either. My poor sweet grandmother was married to a mean screamer who always made her cry.

I believe parents need to stay out of marriages and I find it very creepy to have a big ball because Daddy owns his daughter's virginity. I can't imagine even showing up for an affair like that. At times, when I felt something was wrong, I refused to obey. That would never have flown with me.

I was the first person on either side of my famly to marry a non Jew. Everyone followed, of course, the cowards

 

[susiestar]

From what I know of Purity Balls, they don't go into the whole "Father owns daughter's virginity" thing. It is supposed to be a ceremony that makes a girl feel special and then she will promise her dad and her church that she will not have sex before marriage. Girl gets a little ring from Dad and they dance and blah blah blah.

I think it is incredibly creepy and honestly, I think my father would have RUN if anyone had suggested it when I was a kid. I know my mom would not have allowed it if was a thing then because it is just creepy. Also, she had a real strong feeling that your body was YOUR body and permission to touch it came from YOU, not mommy, not daddy, not anyone else. It didn't make her popular at the family reunions if we refused to hug some relative, but she sided with us every time. At no point did the topic of virginity actually come up in discussions about sex,love, marriage or whatever other than to explain what it was and that most girls actually lose it due to some type of sport - horseback riding, soccer, baseball, whatever. So that whole barrier thing is more of a myth for most of us because we don't really realize when we lose it. Unless you are like a very unfortunate college friend of mine.

I went to the gynecologist with her after a few questions made me think something wasn't right inside her. She was scared to go alone. She was one of the few with a very thick hymen and needed a procedure to fix it. I knew the doctor at the clinic I took her to she explained a LOT. That was where I learned that the whole hymen breaking during sex is far from proof of virginity and that for a rare few girls it is proof, but for most of us it is long gone due to school gym classes and sports.

Honestly it was the last I thought about the subject until the Purity Balls came to light. I think that the emphasis on a girl being a virgin is dumb and unprovable. Plus I knew a TON of girls who were 'virgins' on Sunday through Wed or Thurs, but come Thurs or Fri to Sat, they were with whomever wanted them. I never understood that, and still don't, but they would swear to it.

EVERY girl I knew who did the whole "revirgin" thing, had parents who took them to some fairly strict church. Those few who had parents who left our religious choices to us never seemed to feel a need for that, or to discuss our virginity with the world at large. We never seemed to feel our worth depended on it. I think it is a fault of many of these churches. If I look at the parents in these churches, I can identify very large percentages who are not faithful spouses and who seem to want their kids to not know this. But kids always know, and "do as I say, not as I do" hasn't worked at any time in human civilization that I have seen. I also never heard any parents go on about the boys remaining pure until marriage. They are still supposed to be wild until marriage, which is more than a double standard to me. I don't judge these churches site unseen. The observations I have made are based on having attended church with friends of many religious types as I explored to see if there was a religion that suited me. One thing that really really really bothered me was that in several of the churches in town the boys were given totally different messages than the girls. There were several groups of men in town who would organize a prostitute to 'teach' the boys about sex when they hit 14 or so. In my opinion, that is as wrong as a Purity Ball. It was to make the boys 'men' and 'good husbands' because they could then teach their wives about sex when they married the pure, virginal girl. YUCK!

 

[GoingNorth]

My dad was taken to a "house" at 15 by his older brother. (His father was a Talmudic scholar and would've been appalled.) My dad found the experience to be very traumatic.

My late husband's first exposure was being raped by 2 adult women when he was 14.

I "lost my virginity" at 8 due to a meeting between my uncoordinated, terrified of heights body with a balance beam.

My mother took me to her gynecologist due to the bruising and bleeding and I found out what had happened.

I did not bleed my "first time".

I was never given the lecture on saving it for marriage. Rather i was told it was MY decision because it was my body, and especially my decision because I'd be the one carrying and likely raising any babies that resulted.

That came from my mother. I think my dad got the vapors any time he thought of his oldest daughter and sex in the same context.

I was never hit with any "ownership" issues, though at 11, at onset of menses, I did go through the excruciating ritual of being dragged to the mikvah by the elderly paternal aunts and going through my first ritual cleansing post period, including getting my nails cut to the quick, and various prayers said over me. It's supposed to be a time of great bonding between women, but I was just mortified.

 

[susiestar]

I am so sorry your father and husband both had such horrible first experiences. I don't understand why it isn't seen as rape if a boy is 14 and the women are adults, esp if it is not the boy's choice. I truly cannot wrap my brain around it. For years my difficult older brother swore that if he had a son, he would take him to a brothel at age 14 or 15 to 'learn about sex right'. I told him it was sick and twisted to do that, but he thought it was enlightened and being a good parent. He now has a daughter who is almost 13. I wonder if his opinions have changed any? We haven't talked about it in a long time.

I cringe at your balance beam experience. I know how much that hurts from experience. I took gymnastics for a couple of years. Of course I wasn't great at it, but I liked it. I also had remedial gym at age 5 because I was so clumsy, but it was a great experience and got me to try gymnastics. But OUCH those balance beam falls just hurt for days/weeks!

Your mother had a very healthy outlook, as mine did. I can remember my mother doing many things that seemed small at the time to me but looking back were huge. Like not making me hug one particular great aunt. I was 15 when I learned why she creeped me out, but as early as age 2 I can remember not wanting her anywhere near me, esp not to hug me. It really angered her too. She was of the opinion that if she wanted to hug me, well, it was my duty to let her. My mother wouldn't have any of it. My mom stressed the "you will be taking care of any babies that come from sex, so be sure you are old enough to handle one if you have sex". I think that played a substantial part in my waiting until I was almost 20 to have sex. I just wasn't ready and I knew it. I am glad I waited, because 2 of my kids were born in spite of using 2 methods to prevent them!

 

[GoingNorth]

Well, with my father, his brother was 20 yrs older than he was, and he basically picked out the house, met with the madam, and together they chose the right "motherly" whore for my father's first time.

With husband it was a violent sexual assault. He was injured during it. He received no support from his father, and when husband went to the police, they laughed it off and told him he should've "sat back and enjoyed it." He later needed surgery to deal with some of the physical damage, and suffered PTSD from that, later compounded by PTSD from his military service.

In the early 70s, there wasn't much in the way of rape counseling services, etc.,, for male victims as it was believed that either they were homosexual and secretly enjoyed it, or "deserved it", or they were somehow "not man enough", and well..."that's what you get for being a pussy."

 

[BusynMember]

Wow, GN. Your family was way more religious than mine. I didnt know you went to anything with your first period! I probably would have had to be carried there, kicking and screaming in fright snd defiance. I was embarassed enough when I first got it.

My mother stressed virginity a lot such as "why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free?" lol. Remember that one? And I really did want to be good snd different...and everyone I knew was doing it and taking drugs...I refused to do either, but not because of my parents. In fact, my mother didnt trust me and questioned me about these things I never did so I stopped answering and let her think what dhe wanted. I felt bad that my word wasnt taken because I was telling the truth.

The only really strict rule my parents stuck to was that i could only date Jewish boys. it was enforced to the point that if I dated a blond Jew, I'd be up half the night with my mother castigating me for dating "gentiles." Eventually, I did. I didn't feel overly connected to Judaism anyway. My parents had horrible fights every Jewish holiday, and I didnt believe the Bible anyway.

After I married the first time, a non Jew, I never lived around or identified with Jews again. I still just dont hsve thst feeling that I was ever really Jewish and dont know or live near Jews.

I prefer being spititual rather than sign up for any organized religion and the pointless rules (in my opinion) are one reason I left the flock completely. I never understood my mom talking about why traditions mattered, especially like fasting on Yom Kippor. It scared me ito fadt. I was phobic about passing out. Sok I always had a secret stash of food in my room. I saw my diabetic grandmother fast, because she felt guilty if she didnt, and it scared me. My grandma loved me and I loved her so much...it scared me fir her to fast.

Something akin to s purity ball would not have happened. to me. I will uld never have cooperated. At a very young age I stuck up for my principles.

Goneboy, who is of a very extreme church, claims he and his 35 year old, at the time fiance were both virgins and believes it us a sin to have sexual contact at all before marriage. He believes most Christians are fake.

Im glad they didn't have a daughter. There may have been a purity ball in her future.

 

[GoingNorth]

First of all, it is against Jewish Law for the weak, the ill, small children, and those taking medications to fast at all. Your diabetic relative fasting was actually a sin, not on her part, but on the part of the people who made her fee she was obliged.

I didn't feel that I had to date Jewish boys, though oddly, other than the guy I lost my virginity to, who was older, I wound up with all Jewish boys. My husband, I didn't know was Jewish as he had a German last name, spoke fluent German, and had a "Middle Eastern" look to him.

It wasn't untii I heard his mother yelling at him in Yiddish and him answering her in same, (and his father yelling at both for speaking Yiddish) that I realized.

No, my nuclear family was not super religous. My dad's sisters were quite a few years older than he was. He was a "change of life baby". He went along with them taking me to the ritual bath to keep them happy. It was my first and last time at a mikvah as a participant.

I have been in others here and in Europe as they are a fascinating bit of the cultural history of women in Judaism, and often interesting buildings as well.

I think my parents were relieved that I married a Jew as my sister married a Catholic the first time. Ironically, it was my sister who had the grandchildren and I who wound up "barren". (I'm sterile due to endometreosis)

It was a bit different for me as my mother was a rabbi's daughter. She kept a kosher house early on so that her older in-laws, including her mother in law, could eat there. I think I was about 9 when she started to move away from Kashrut, which would coincide with her return to the workforce.

My mother really KNEW the Laws, and I was raised to know Kashrut, though I've forgotten a lot of it. I've also learned the "scientific" reasoning behind it, and most of it is B.S. now that Jews are no longer a group of nomadic tribes.

 

[BusynMember]

My grandmother was repeatedly told not to fast. She felt she had to. Nobody could talk her into eating.

I didn't want to date jewish guys. I was not that attracted to them and never did pick up Jewish values. My parents would literally scream at me nonstop and call me horrible names if I didn't date just Jewish boys so I listened at first.

WHEN MY MOTHER STARTED ACCUSING ME OF DATING NON Jewish boys because the Jewish guys sometimes had blond hair, I finally told her she could yell at me forever, but I'm going to date who I wanted. I took hell for that but I didn't back down. I just stopped telling them who I liked. I saw my boyfriends away from home and when questioned about boyfriends I wouldn't discuss it.

I know nothing about most Jewish law. I wasn't interested. All my family did was fight on the holidays, which made me not want to stay Jewish. I just wanted to move away from home and that's what I did.

 

[GoingNorth]

Oh, I was interested in my heritage and still am, but more from the point of, like many people, wanting to know where "my people" came from.

I did study the religion growing up, though I do not read or speak Hebrew. I was older when I left Judaism, and didn't have as many negative experiiences growing up. I also had positive experiences with religious, older relatives, so didn't feel driven away from the religion by personal experiences with relatives. (We did have our few J.A.P.s, and tried to avoid them like the plague.)

Oddly, I left Judaism whlle living in Europe, and later left religion all together.

 

[BusynMember]

I never really cared where my DNA came from. in my opinion my family is who loves me...most are notvmy DNA. I dont really know my DNA history.

I was very badly bullied as a kid, partly hecause my house and clothes werent expensive enough. My town was so Jewish that maybe two kids per year in my classroom were not. Yet they tended to be my only friends. I was more like a non Jew, if you know what I mean. And it was Jews who were tormenting me from my mom to my peers. I never did accept, what I call, culturally Jewish values. I consider it a culture as much as a religion.

Long before I graduated high school, I decided Jews didn't like me, that it was mutual, and that I was leaving Jewish life behind forever.

I did. Even my biological son is clueless snd disinterested in Judaism. The subject almost never comes up. We never lived near Jewish people. I dont know any.

There is a cousin's club on my dads side. They are allegedly nice and very intellugrnt people. I have no interest in meeting them. They kind of scare me...lol.

I really took a beating from what some would consider "my people."

But my own beliefs are that nothing is an accident. Everything happens for a reason. I feel my reason was so I could love and embrace all kinds of children, no matter if their backgound matched mine or not. I consider my husbsnd and children (and maybe even my dogs...hmmmmm) to be my people. Nobody else.

Interesting discussion. Made me think.