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When are we assuming too much?
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<blockquote data-quote="SuZir" data-source="post: 621660" data-attributes="member: 14557"><p>CoM, in almost any forum you can see the same phenomenon, first responses set the tone of the thread. Rarely anyone raises the different opinions. It is basic psychology. Most people, in fact most animals avoid conflict whenever possible. Conflicts take lot of resources and in most cases retreat is wiser choice. </p><p></p><p>Making that choice may be conscious or unconscious but most people do it. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Heh, this is kind the point. Your opinions in this topics are popular in this board. I happen to disagree. I agree that detachment and even distance/no contact may at times be an only way to save your mental health or provide peaceful home to your other family members and at times it may be a question of safety. I'm certainly not against anyone detaching. However I don't see it as the only right choice, nor do I believe much to concept of enabling. In fact I have never even seen any clear definition what enabling is and even less have I seen any research or scientific evidence it harms an enabled person. In contrary I have seen research that seems to show differently. For example I have seen several studies of young criminals that seems to suggest that offenders who had parents that did things many would consider enabling faired better and re-offend less than offenders, who had parents who didn't get involved (for example didn't come to court, didn't visit in prison much, weren't much involved with after incarnation planning etc.) </p><p></p><p>Same with many tough love concepts. There is very little proof of their effectiveness. My own experiences also come into a play in this. I never got anything good out from using consequences, punishments or restrictions with my difficult child. Things that at least at times worked were positive reinforcement, building on positives, keeping sure positive influences stayed in his life even when he didn't 'earn' them. And modeling and creating habits. Any kind of tough love attempts were more or less spectacular failures.</p><p></p><p>I also don't have much faith in twelve steps treatment. I have never seen scientific evidence of it working better than anything else, I certainly don't have much faith on it's basic theory. While my personal experiences are limited, just few al-anon meetings etc. I'm sceptical due the experiences of people I know.</p><p></p><p>My scepticism started quarter of the century ago on the day I picked up my dad from Minnesota Model treatment centre when he was kicked out from there for making and drinking alcohol during the treatment. We had told beforehand they had well over 90 % success rate and when I picked up him and few of his treatment buddies, I was still told their success rate was that 'from people who work the program.' Only thing that the centre was kicking out 18 of their 20 patients in that day. And my dad claimed that only reason those two were not kicked out was because they had passed out much earlier and weren't there drinking anymore when they were busted. My dad is lying lier who lies, but I'm bit inclined to believe on that story <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> I mean, I can come up with treatment model that has 100 % success rate, if one just follows it. It goes like this: "Do not drink!" Works like a charm (well in fact for about 5 % of alcoholics it works just like that per year, it is a spontaneous recovery rate of alcoholism without any treatment.) I have heard that same be statement after that too and that certainly doesn't lower my suspicions.</p><p></p><p>By the way, my dad now in his late sixties has been mostly moderate drinker well over a decade despite several deliriums and other signs of alcohol dependency as well as couple amphetamine psychosis etc. in his past, so I don't even have much belief on concept of alcoholism AA has.</p><p></p><p>Also my friend has a bad experience with AA and so did my difficult child last fall with other twelve steps group. Though I have to say my difficult child's bad experience wasn't due to twelve steps so much than because of an individual who used the meetings to prey people.</p><p></p><p>Any how I'm well aware that twelve steps do offer free and accessible option for people in certain parts not the world. And many have gained lot of positive things from them. I just don't believe that treatment model is all and be all. There are other options and different models may be more suitable to different people.</p><p></p><p>Yes, I'm the person who wants science and evidence based treatment to my own bailments and those of my minor children or even adult children if I'm to pay a penny for that treatment.</p><p></p><p>I have also other unpopular opinions of roles of genetics and environmental factors in several issues and how much parenting influences to things. And that is just a beginning of it all <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>There has lately been lot of new members with kids with substance abuse issues and because of my differing opinions, I have not answered to those people, because I well known that voicing my point of views just get fight into our hands.</p><p></p><p>Sent using ConductDisorders mobile app</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="SuZir, post: 621660, member: 14557"] CoM, in almost any forum you can see the same phenomenon, first responses set the tone of the thread. Rarely anyone raises the different opinions. It is basic psychology. Most people, in fact most animals avoid conflict whenever possible. Conflicts take lot of resources and in most cases retreat is wiser choice. Making that choice may be conscious or unconscious but most people do it. Heh, this is kind the point. Your opinions in this topics are popular in this board. I happen to disagree. I agree that detachment and even distance/no contact may at times be an only way to save your mental health or provide peaceful home to your other family members and at times it may be a question of safety. I'm certainly not against anyone detaching. However I don't see it as the only right choice, nor do I believe much to concept of enabling. In fact I have never even seen any clear definition what enabling is and even less have I seen any research or scientific evidence it harms an enabled person. In contrary I have seen research that seems to show differently. For example I have seen several studies of young criminals that seems to suggest that offenders who had parents that did things many would consider enabling faired better and re-offend less than offenders, who had parents who didn't get involved (for example didn't come to court, didn't visit in prison much, weren't much involved with after incarnation planning etc.) Same with many tough love concepts. There is very little proof of their effectiveness. My own experiences also come into a play in this. I never got anything good out from using consequences, punishments or restrictions with my difficult child. Things that at least at times worked were positive reinforcement, building on positives, keeping sure positive influences stayed in his life even when he didn't 'earn' them. And modeling and creating habits. Any kind of tough love attempts were more or less spectacular failures. I also don't have much faith in twelve steps treatment. I have never seen scientific evidence of it working better than anything else, I certainly don't have much faith on it's basic theory. While my personal experiences are limited, just few al-anon meetings etc. I'm sceptical due the experiences of people I know. My scepticism started quarter of the century ago on the day I picked up my dad from Minnesota Model treatment centre when he was kicked out from there for making and drinking alcohol during the treatment. We had told beforehand they had well over 90 % success rate and when I picked up him and few of his treatment buddies, I was still told their success rate was that 'from people who work the program.' Only thing that the centre was kicking out 18 of their 20 patients in that day. And my dad claimed that only reason those two were not kicked out was because they had passed out much earlier and weren't there drinking anymore when they were busted. My dad is lying lier who lies, but I'm bit inclined to believe on that story ;) I mean, I can come up with treatment model that has 100 % success rate, if one just follows it. It goes like this: "Do not drink!" Works like a charm (well in fact for about 5 % of alcoholics it works just like that per year, it is a spontaneous recovery rate of alcoholism without any treatment.) I have heard that same be statement after that too and that certainly doesn't lower my suspicions. By the way, my dad now in his late sixties has been mostly moderate drinker well over a decade despite several deliriums and other signs of alcohol dependency as well as couple amphetamine psychosis etc. in his past, so I don't even have much belief on concept of alcoholism AA has. Also my friend has a bad experience with AA and so did my difficult child last fall with other twelve steps group. Though I have to say my difficult child's bad experience wasn't due to twelve steps so much than because of an individual who used the meetings to prey people. Any how I'm well aware that twelve steps do offer free and accessible option for people in certain parts not the world. And many have gained lot of positive things from them. I just don't believe that treatment model is all and be all. There are other options and different models may be more suitable to different people. Yes, I'm the person who wants science and evidence based treatment to my own bailments and those of my minor children or even adult children if I'm to pay a penny for that treatment. I have also other unpopular opinions of roles of genetics and environmental factors in several issues and how much parenting influences to things. And that is just a beginning of it all ;) There has lately been lot of new members with kids with substance abuse issues and because of my differing opinions, I have not answered to those people, because I well known that voicing my point of views just get fight into our hands. Sent using ConductDisorders mobile app [/QUOTE]
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