When your past as a child, follows you as a mother, as a person.

New Leaf

Well-Known Member
New Leaf. M says everything has its good and bad points. (I am referencing here your spontaneity, a much kinder word than impulsiveness.) Everything.

A saying of his is this: There are no bad things from which good cannot come. No hay malo que bien no venga.

I try to trick him by asking him, and this? What good can come of this terrible thing? Like last week his niece's young male boxer dog died (we think he ate rat poison that M's stupid brother in law buried 4' below the ground in the yard.)

And just the moment before I had said, now we know we can never let them take care of our animals.

And M answered, "See. Is that not a good thing? To learn that?"
I love this Copa, the wisdom, the simple, earthy, wisdom.

We, each of us, is learning to love ourselves, no matter what. We have each come through the hardest of times. This has revealed to us parts of ourselves, like new skin instead of that which was toughened and callused.

The challenge is that over the years we have learned near automatic ways to talk to ourselves about ourselves that can be harsh and accusing. They no longer fit with our new tender, pretty pink skin.

We need to find tender and soft ways to speak to ourselves about ourselves so that we do not need to become calloused and defended again, with all that fibrous tissue.

You are a new leaf.
Yes Copa, I agree. Thank you. I must remind myself of that, and also the part about people having a right to not like us. It is okay to be who we are, who we truly are. Not everyone will understand us, but that is okay. We are not chameleons who have to change our colors to make ourselves fit in.
New Leaf...good name for our tender NEW skin.

Feeling Sad....good name because we are allowed to FEEL now.

Copa...good name because we are learning better ways to COPE.

Cedar...good name because it is STRONG and invisible to outside elements.

Four truly noble warrior sisters...

Yes, Feeling, noble warrior sisters, how lovely.

We are blessed to have found each other.

I am truly thankful, and blessed.

:grouphugg:
 

New Leaf

Well-Known Member
Greetings, ladies. How are we doing? Are you both trying to decide whether or not to call your child? I know that you are both in turmoil about what you should do.
Hi Feeling. I have not called. I am still praying on it. I do not feel ready to open that door. I am protecting myself, by not calling. Strange. The danger is not the degree you are facing Feeling. But it is there. My attempts in the past to have a conversation with my two have been so....offset? It is risky, at best, to even try. It is entering the swirly whirly, the deepy dark. This I know. So for now, I will hold off, and continue to think that if they attempt contact with me, and sound like the people I love and knew, then it is time to open the door, slightly. Manipulation has been such a large part of this tornado, or perhaps they were trying to reach out, then the addictive behavior took hold again. Who knows. I will hold them in my heart and prayers and hope down deep inside that they can step away from their nightmare, but I will not enter it.
I am not the one to ask, because i am in a very desparate place. But, I understand your dilemmas. I hope that you find peace and that you do what you feel is best.
You are certainly one to ask, because you do understand, coming from a place of desperation. Do not ever feel you cannot ask Feeling. I know in the asking of it, you are coming from a place of concern. I will and must find peace. I have every right, should I even say a duty, to protect myself from further hurt after the many experiences and hurts I have had from my adult children.

There is that old saying "You always hurt the one you love"

I think our G-F-Gs get into the habit of hurting us, over and over, taking advantage of family ties. They think that whatever they do doesn't matter because we are supposed to love and forgive them. All throughout this site, I see posts where G-F-G-s have burned family bridges the heaviest and the hardest. They have abused the love of their loved ones.

At first, I believe it is because of the explanation above, that we are "supposed" to forgive them in their minds eye, then as they go deeper into their addiction, we are easy targets. As we enter into the whirl of their manipulations, we get caught up in it. We LOVE them, we can't help ourselves, until after so much devastation, beaten down and dazed, we have to see the destruction for what it is. And stop it. On our end. Because we have no control of what our adult children do. It hurts, perhaps the biggest hurt we will ever encounter.


My prayers are being sent out to both of you.
Thank you Feeling, prayers are powerful, powerful indeed. Likewise, my thoughts and prayers go out to you.

I have been reading about complex ptsd. It can be brought on by continued trauma...it stated that constant bullying by a sibling where one is not protected by parents can cause complex ptsd.

It also stated that continued trauma can cause a person to stay in bed and not get up.

Mine, living with several mentally ill people where your safety or life is in danger, can also cause it.
I feel my stressful past history can be overcome, not completely, it will always be there as a part of me. Like tinnitus, constant ringing in the ears, it will always be there. If I focused on it, I would surely go mad. There will be days when something will trigger memories, and I will have to learn there is a road I go down. But I do not have to go ALL the way down that road.

No more. We were made to feel badly about ourselves. It stops now. Wonderful, caring, supportive people, never have to apologize.

I think there is something wonderful about being able to apologize. We all make mistakes, and saying sorry helps both the transgressor and the one who is hurt. In working with children, countless times a stubborn little one will refuse to apologize when wrong, as if in doing so, it is painful. I have taught kids to apologize when necessary, because it helps themselves and the one they hurt, make amends.

I do agree the over apologizing has got to stop, and saying sorry when there is no fault.

How wonderful it is to share thoughts with a friend who understands.
I am very thankful.
Leafy.
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
Hello, everybody. We are home safely. Know that I am reading along, but have so little time to post right now. I loved reading your posts.

We are all coming so real.

:starplucker:

Cedar
 

Feeling Sad

Well-Known Member
Welcome back Cedar. How was your trip? I hope that you had fun!

Copa, how is M's niece's baby that was born blind? How are you?

I had a long day...
 

Feeling Sad

Well-Known Member
Leafy...how are you? I can't write long, but I wanted to check in. I am feeling better, just tired. Maybe I will sleep better tonight.

I totally understand why you are holding off on calling your daughter. You made a wise and healthy, for you and her, choice.

One of my most difficult students shoved another student and then later teased her because of her stuttering. She sees a therapist at school for anxiety and he sees one for...you guessed it! Anger and poor social skills.

Roar...
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
Feeling, about the baby, they are optimistic, but do not know yet. It was laser surgery. The doctors told the Mom that he should be fine but may lack a full range of peripheral vision. I will let you know when I know.

I am sad. I continue to get out at least half a day every day, doing chores. It is a real battle. I do not feel much joy.

M is mad at me because I told him all he does is criticize me (latest, I do not remember anything) and talk mean.

If I tell him that, he accuses me of wanting him to be silent.

You cannot say anything to him because he turns it back on me 10x worse. Like Donald Trump.

I am missing my mother.

My son called and said he has an appointment with the Liver Clinic on 9/28. I will believe it when I see it.

Thank you for thinking about me.

I am glad you are feeling better. I hope that you sleep well tonight.

New Leaf, I agree with Feeling. It is wise to wait, I think.

Cedar, I hope you are getting settled. I can't wait until you are back.

COPA
 

Feeling Sad

Well-Known Member
That is good news about your son. It sounds hopeful, but I understand your doubts.

M. does not understand. I do not think that others can actually totally understand what you are going through, unless like us, they have experienced something similar.

Your going out awhile each day is HUGE. It takes bravery. I am proud of you.

An outsider would think that I was being a big baby flipping out just because the power went out. But my fellow warriors know why.... I am brave too.

He has not gone through what you have gone through. When I am down or sad, I miss my mom as well. Even though we did not always have the best childhood, we still yearn for that comfort of being safe.

Do something nice for yourself each day. Be good to yourself. We are proud of you. We have your back. Keep up the good work.

In time...you might want to 'branch' out a bit if he is being grouchy. Maybe he is expecting instant results. I don't know. He needs to be kind to you.

Take a walk in the park. Buy some craft materials and create. Redecorate a room with just thrift store purchases. Window shop.

Have fun!
 
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Feeling Sad

Well-Known Member
Yes, you are going to feel sad and it will be a battle. That is normal. It is new to you and going against your inclinations.

Maybe a small goal...or a reward...or helping others.

Baby steps. Someone told me once 'fake until you make it'.

Each day it will be a bit better, a bit easier, a bit less sad.

Then maybe, without realizing it, you will laugh, or smile, or feel...joy.

Baby steps. Take it slow...consistent, yet...slow.

It is okay that you don't feel joy... yet. I am feeling joyful for YOU!
 

New Leaf

Well-Known Member
Leafy...how are you? I can't write long, but I wanted to check in. I am feeling better, just tired. Maybe I will sleep better tonight.
I am well Feeling, thank you, big day tomorrow, flu clinic at school. It will be frenetic at best, especially with the little ones.

I hope you are able to rest tonight, sleep is so important, it does evade me, or I it. I like the quiet hours of the night to soothe myself with writing or my art. It comes back to haunt me in the morning when I have burned the midnight oil, and trudge off to work.
I am at Sams Club now bemusedly listening to a loud exchange between a Chinese mother and son. It is quite comical, especially after my morning post in FOO. How life imitates thoughts-even the anger issue with the student-ahem, weren't we just writing about anger- interesting.

I am comfortable with my decision not to call my G-F-G. Patience is a virtue. No need to rush.

Off to Walmart to look for boys costume, girlfriend is red riding hood and he is the big bad wolf. So opposite. Such is Halloween.

Yuck, on my phone and my chubby fingers are a clumsy mess on the keyboard. Will write later.....:batman:

Roar..
 

New Leaf

Well-Known Member
I am sad. I continue to get out at least half a day every day, doing chores. It is a real battle. I do not feel much joy.

Hi Copa I am so proud of you, this is a big change in your life. Change is scary and hard. When we try things differently, our mind, body, spirit resists at first, because it is not part of our routine. It takes real effort, and can be taxing. I tell the parents of my paddling kids to expect changes, sometimes kids will feel tired, worn out, feel like quitting because of the physical exertion. When they learn the technique and their bodies start to become familiar with the movement, there is a change to a more positive vibe. You may be going through something similar. Hang tough and you will feel better. Maybe M is happy, but scared too. This is a big change for him.

M is mad at me because I told him all he does is criticize me (latest, I do not remember anything) and talk mean.

If I tell him that, he accuses me of wanting him to be silent.

You cannot say anything to him because he turns it back on me 10x worse. Like Donald Trump.
We had a discussion in the office today about how different men are from women. Everything about them is different. The hubs is grumpy all the time. I have to "create the bubble" and let it go. His reaction is the same as M's, it makes no sense to argue. Sometimes I think he wants to pick a fight, it goes round and round pointlessly. No sense getting my feathers ruffled! He will just start talking louder and louder, then I'll tell him he's being mean, then he'll say I won't say anything then. So much easier to just walk away and wait for the storm to pass.

When he gets critical, which can be often, I DO protest, and tell him I DO not deserve it!

ROAR!

In time...you might want to 'branch' out a bit if he is being grouchy. Maybe he is expecting instant results. I don't know. He needs to be kind to you.
Yes indeed you should be treated kindly. Men have very different ways of being kind.

Take a walk in the park. Buy some craft materials and create. Redecorate a room with just thrift store purchases. Window shop.
Good advice!

Got to go-please feel better Copa-you are doing so well!

Goodnight Feeling!
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
Oops! Don't know how we all ended up in the purple together!:noobiesmiley:
There's nowhere I would rather be provided you all are there with me.

Thank you New Leaf. I especially noticed that you tell your husband when you are displeased with his crankiness. Because afterwards with M, I sometimes feel what is the point to protest. In the moment, it gets worse.

But the next day? It was worlds better. He was sweet, tender and supportive. Not critical or mean at all.

He is very strong and he faces problems head on while I try to hide. This often feels mean to me, when he puts my feet to the fire and forces me to confront a situation. I see no good reason to face a problem head on when you can continue to hide.

Or when he makes known his displeasure when stuff mounts up do to my inattention and indifference.

I guess that is why my sadness has continued so long.

Thank you for your kind post.

COPA
 

New Leaf

Well-Known Member
Thank you New Leaf. I especially noticed that you tell your husband when you are displeased with his crankiness. Because afterwards with M, I sometimes feel what is the point to protest. In the moment, it gets worse.

I must choose my protesting carefully, Copa, otherwise it is wasted, and I must use the least words possible. I suppose that is why I am so wordy here. I have words all stored up from minding my tongue with the hubs. You are right, there is no point to go on and on if it is falling on deaf ears.

That is the beauty of it, to choose our battles.
Don't tangle with an ornery bear, wait till his belly is full, and he doesn't have the stuff in him to fight back.
But the next day? It was worlds better. He was sweet, tender and supportive. Not critical or mean at all.
I am glad M was better the next day. Menfolk are different creatures, once we figure that out, we realize we cannot behave as if they are our dear sisters. Still, I am caught off guard at times.

He is very strong and he faces problems head on while I try to hide. This often feels mean to me, when he puts my feet to the fire and forces me to confront a situation. I see no good reason to face a problem head on when you can continue to hide.
He sounds like my hubs, tackle the problem, charge!!!! I am a thinker, a dawdler, a ponderer. In between the potential arguments over situations, I have got to admit we strangely compliment one another.
Peanut butter and jelly.

Or when he makes known his displeasure when stuff mounts up do to my inattention and indifference.
He would not do so, but for loving you. That is his way of saying-
"It is not right with you and I know it. I am worried. So get going and tidy the house up, we will both feel better. "
Men do not go all mushy and have sisterly conversations with us. That is movie rubbish.
If we could talk as deeply with our mates as we did with our women friends, nothing would ever get done.

I guess that is why my sadness has continued so long.
Yes Copa, sad- too, long. You have been sad and stuck- too, long. That is okay, as long as you are okay with it.

But, I see from your writing that you are not okay with it.

You are missing your mother. She has been right there all along with you, in everything you do. You have saved the best parts of her in your heart, Copa, and in your charm with the clerks at the store the other day. You are missing her, but she has been smiling at you all the while, as you look in the mirror.

After my Father passed, on one of my visits, I went to his bureau and amongst his old framed pictures, in his little tray, I found an old tattered, yellowed paper with his writing. It was a verse from one of his favorite poems "Hallowed Ground" by Thomas Campbell, a Scotch poet from the late 1700's.

Enotes has this explanation...

The poem "Hallowed Ground" begins with a demand to know the meaning of the phrase. Did God set apart some section of the earth not to be sullied by the foot of man, made in the image of God? Does the expression refer to the grave where "lips repose our love has kissed?" No, because that soul still lives on, a part of oneself. Everything except true love fades, and that will not cool "until the heart itself be cold in Lethe's pool." Campbell then answers his question in stanzas five and six, and in a stirring final stanza.

What hallows ground where heroes sleep?
'T is not the scuptured piles you heap!
In dews that heavens far distant weep
Their turf may bloom;
Or Genii twine beneath the deep
Their coral tomb.
But strew his ashes to the wind
Whose sword or voice has served mankind–
And is he dead whose glorious mind
Lifts thine on high?–
To live in hearts we leave behind
Is not to die.
. . .
What's hallowed ground? 'Tis what gives birth
To sacred thoughts in souls of worth!–
Peace! Independence! Truth! go forth
Earth's compass round,
And your high priesthood shall make earth
All hallowed ground.

My Dad's favorite verse from this excerpt was "To live in hearts we leave behind is not to die."

My Mother was very mad that I went to live in Rio. I did it anyway.
Your Mother gave you life, and wings to fly, and fly you did. Even though she protested. In the old days, that was love, to be mad at someone for moving far away.

I could not develop as a person living near her. For many years I would not speak to her or see her at all.
Two Queens in the castle. I think that is what they call it. Don't we all as our younger selves feel stifled with our parents?
Isn't that the fire that burns in us to get away, to live our own lives?
I never really trusted my mother to hold me in a safe place. If given a chance my mother would have eaten me alive, like she did in the months before she got very, very sick. Given a chance, my mother would have consumed me.
So brave Copa, to go against your mothers wishes, but you had to save yourself. Yet, you still came back and took care of your mother. That is the greatest kind of love, there were no conditions, there were no reassurances that you would receive love back, but you went anyway.
I took the best and made the best of an environment that was difficult and hostile and conflicted and dangerous and cruel...and impossible to understand.
Yes Copa, you have the best of your mother in you, you are the goodness she had.
When she was at the point of dying and after she died I was heartbroken because I realized how deeply I had loved her. When it was too late.
Copa, you went back and you stayed by your mothers side. That is deep love, you fought for what was right with your sister, that is deep love.

It was not too late Copa.

The best of your mother continues to live on in your heart, in your fond memories of her.

It is an entirely new passage for us when we lose a parent. A new road to travel.

You and I must forgive ourselves Copa. You must forgive yourself for doing what you needed to do to survive and thrive away from being consumed by your mother. You went back Copa and tenderly cared for her.

I must forgive myself for not going back those weeks as my father lay dying.
It would have killed me. To see him like that. To go one last time and not be able to speak with him.
I know that now, as I write to you.
I did go back, for six long years, I went back and sat by my fathers side, even as he could not give to me what I so longed for. I went in the winter and shoveled the walkway, split wood for the fireplace, sat with him as he read.

And now, you and I both have the best part of our parents with us. We have sifted through everything, to see the good we received from them. It is this, in our hearts, that keeps them alive, with us. I have my fathers love of reading, and deep thought, philosophy. You have an eloquence in your writing, a gift that transposes across cyber space, a charisma and grace that you describe your mother possessing.

We cherish the good parts, and that is all we could ever ask for or want, when it is our time to go, that our children would remember and cherish the good in us.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
Wow, New Leaf. You wrote a book, not a post.
You have saved the best parts of her in your heart, Copa, and in your charm with the clerks at the store the other day.
Yes. Thank you.

You are missing her, but she has been smiling at you all the while, as you look in the mirror.
You see, New Leaf, that is exactly the problem.

I have a hard time picturing my mother as smiling at me. The affect I most associate with her is angry and hard. Even though she had a persona as the warmest woman in the world. My memory of her when I was a child was angry and temperamental and selfish. And that was much of my experience of her as an adult. I was outclassed.

But the thing is, if I think of her at her door when she would greet me, sometimes after years, she was smiling. I think we never really recovered from the hard times of my childhood. Except as she was dying.

To live in hearts we leave behind Is not to die.
Yes. Thank you.

Even though she protested. In the old days, that was love, to be mad at someone for moving far away.
Actually she was mad because there had been a construction accident on her roof and she was resentful that I did not dedicate myself to helping her. Actually she did very well on her own. I am completely inept in those things. I think, too, she was resentful that I wanted to have so much fun and to live footloose and fancy free. She was happier with me when I was a drudge.

That is the greatest kind of love, there were no conditions, there were no reassurances that you would receive love back, but you went anyway.
Thank you. M talks about this time. Last week he told his sister: Copa would have spent every dime she had and every dime her mother had to take care of her Mother, without thinking twice. He respected me in that. I am grateful for his respect.

I must forgive myself for not going back those weeks as my father lay dying.
It would have killed me.
I know. You must remember this. It has been 25 months since my mother died. I have said I almost died with her. There are still days when I fear I will never get better. Fewer now. There were others there to care for you Dad. And your sacrifice of yourself, he would not have been in a position to know or to appreciate. I was it for my mother.

And now, you and I both have the best part of our parents with us. We have sifted through everything, to see the good we received from them.
Yes. I think I am almost there. Thank you.

We cherish the good parts, and that is all we could ever ask for or want, when it is our time to go, that our children would remember and cherish the good in us.
Yes. I think about this as well. I know you are speaking here of a memory, but I would like to die with my son near me, and M, if we are still together. Selfishly, as hard as it has been for me, I hope my son will be with me. Even if it is hard for him. I would want him to be with me as I die. I love him so much.

Thank you, New Leaf.

COPA
 

Feeling Sad

Well-Known Member
It is normal to 'strike' out and be on your own. That is why many young adults leave to start their own lives someplace else. It is a part of growing up.

I wish that I had... I stayed close. I never had adventures. I have never lived further than 30 minutes from my childhood home. Am I better off for it?

My mother was controlling and I grew up trying to make her happy. I was the only one with children, so I think that I finally, maybe did something that she somewhat liked.

But, my point is that most mothers are almost 'trained' by our culture to make their children feel guilty. We probably all do it to some degree. Your mother tried, and it did not work. End of story.

Were you a bad daughter? No. You have a right to have your own life. Maybe she created an atmosphere in which you felt guilty doing something that most adult do. Go off and start a career, travel, and try to figure out what you want in life.

You did nothing wrong. Your mother made you feel that way. You would have called her if she had not made such a large chasm of misunderstanding between you.

If she had been kind...you would have felt open to talking to her.

Now, I feel that the majority of your guilt comes from feeling that you failed her...that she never knew how much you loved her until it was the 'too late'.

She knew. She always knew. You also came to be by her side toward the end. She knew.

I got around my guilt, that often was posing as grief. Why should I feel badly?

I got pregnant out of wedlock in my twenties, even though he was my first and only boyfriend...and I married him, even though he was violent, to please her. Was she pleased? No.

I had sex before I was married. He was a different race. He was Japanese. He was not college educated. Lastly, he was from a 'poor' area.

Fail...fail...fail..fail... I lost count. Did I get enough 'fails' in???

After I divorced 12 horrible years later, she never told her relatives how I had 'disgraced' her and got a divorce. Never mind that I was being abused. I divorced him in 1994. I still get cards with my married name on them!

Years later, she told my middle son, who was 17, "You do not want to be like your mother and have sex before you are married. She is not going to Heaven. You want to go to Heaven, don't you?"

Never mind that I had never told my sons this fact. Way to go, mom! I was not told by my son for years. It turned him off religion. He said, "Why should I believe in a Heaven that your own MOTHER doesn't think that you are good enough to get into?"

I was going someplace before my very bumpy trip down memory lane. Oh, yes. I followed what she wanted me to do, we'll except for my unplanned pregnancy, his different race, etc. (Please see above for the complete list).

What did it get me? I feel just as guilty as you....AND....this is the big ending...she still made me feel as though I had failed her AND I did not get to travel, explore, or experience anything further than 30 minutes away!!!

Voilà. I have argued my case. Copa, even if you HAD stayed, she could have very well still had made you feel guilty.

What I do now is 'talk' to her. No, not when others are around. I do not want to be perceived as...strange.

I believe in some plane of existence after death. I always have. I have been clairvoyant since middle school. It gives me the creeps. Things can happen that have no scientific explanation.

But, my point is that she is still 'out there'. I talk to her and I feel better.

Would I still feel better even if she was not out there? A resounding....yes!

Therapists all the time tell you to write a 'letter' to the one who has wronged you. Not to be sent. But rather, for the cathartic value of the exercise.

So, 'talk' with you mom. Apologize for any perceived guilt that you possess. You can even TELL her some things that you were ticked off about or possibly misjudged about. The best part is that you hold the floor. No arguing. Sometimes I can 'hear' her guilty ridden counterpoint in my mind, but that can be easily squashed!

I look at model homes. I can hear her say in my mind, "What a horrible floorplan! Who decorated this home? The yard is way too small! What cheap rug!"

You get the picture.

Leafy was right. Your mom is always with you....your mannerisms, your way of setting people at ease, your gift if a turn of a phrase. She is still here. Whether you believe that she can 'see' you or that your love for her will NEVER go away...she is here. Converse with her. ( Just not in front of M. He will think that you have totally lost it!)

I wrote on another thread about my mother's rough passing. All of the work and responsibilities was placed on me. Long story short, I was alone at 2 in the morning in the hospital and I was approached by her doctor and told that if she was not incubated within the next 2 minutes, that she would die. My directions for power of attorney was to have at least 4 doctors saying that she was terminal before I was to 'give up' on her.

I could hear her say, "Don't give up on me too soon", in my mind.

She suffered horribly and slowly several doctors came up to me to inform me of each subsequent organ failure.

A nurse said, "I am sure glad that you are not MY DAUGHTER!" I felt horrible. I had failed my mom and had caused days of suffering in one fell swoop.

After wallowing, I felt rightfully so, in a large, deep pool of guilt for years, it finally dawned on me. I had done my best. I was the only one who stayed each night well into the morning and often, over night. I spoke with all of her doctors. I did the best that I could given my directives.

So, I 'talked' with my mother. I told her how sorry I was. I told her that I had never wanted her to be in pain. I told her that I loved her.

Guess what? I felt as if a large weight had been lifted off of my shoulders. I felt much, much better.

Do I know if she actually 'heard' me or not? No. Does it matter? No.

I felt better. Since that day, with my long apology and resolving my conflicts or feelings if guilt...I do not feel guilty about how her last days were handled.

I did the best that I could. Guilt and grief are often very closely intertwined. She knows that you loved her...you still do.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
Voilà. I have argued my case. Copa, even if you HAD stayed, she could have very well still had made you feel guilty.
My sister stayed. And at 60 when my mother died, she was so bitter and angry she would not speak or see my mother for almost the last year of her life. Nor would she assist in any medical decision or take any responsibility at all. And except for one time would not speak to me as I took responsibility.

So, 'talk' with you mom. Apologize for any perceived guilt that you possess.
I feel bad too about medical decisions I made. There is no easy or pretty way to die, unless maybe you take pills. The big decision was when it was determined that my mother could no longer safely eat. She was in the hospital. A lot of pressure was put on me to let her die by starving. At that point she was not dying of anything. So, M and I believed strongly that it would be killing my mother to withhold food. I believed that she could recuperate somewhat and no doctor could or would tell me that she would not. Still, many people would have allowed my mother to starve. Except they would put it, to allow her to die. I know my sister would have. My mother never did after that have any real quality of life. It was out of the hospital for less than a week, and back in. But during that time we had the talk about love. We had a young Rabbinical student visit. And she laughed and smiled at my jokes.

But there was more suffering too. But I had asked her, Mama, do you want to die? And she said No. Well, that is all she wrote. I had to obey my mother.

I look at model homes.
Any chance I can, I do too. So did my Mother. Except LA was so built up when she lived there there were only town homes. So she looked at those. Or we would go out with a realtor and see resales. But she never moved.

So, I 'talked' with my mother. I told her how sorry I was. I told her that I had never wanted her to be in pain. I told her that I loved her.

She knows that you loved her...you still do.
Not too long before her death, she was in the hospital for yet another time. I asked her, Mama, do you love me. Oh, so much. I love you so much. I asked her, Mama, do you know how much I love you? She answered yes. I said, Mama, do you really, really know, how much? And she waited nearly 30 seconds. And said. Yes.

Cedar has read this, maybe, 36 times. It means so much to me.

Thank you Feeling.

COPA
 
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Copabanana

Well-Known Member
You know, Feeling, I keep thinking about your last post. I left, yes. I pursued powerful and meaningful goals, yes. To a large extent I fulfilled my potential. At least enough of it to be content. I traveled. I did nearly everything I ever wanted to do except get married.

But I lived a very lonely life. I lived my life alone until I adopted my son when I was about 40 and he was almost 2. I had friends. I had flings and a great love. But I was alone.

I paid a huge, huge price by distancing myself from my family. And what I realized in these last couple of years was that was all I really wanted. A close family. To have the best parts of what was my life as a young girl. Sewing. Women around me. Food. The ocean right near. Gardening. Mobility.

I was loved as a small child. Or had the illusion of it. That was what I wanted and did not have much of in my life. All the rest? Was filler.

At this vantage point I think it does not much matter what we do in life. It is more that we come to understand who we are and have been in our lives and come to peace with that.

And that is exactly what we are doing here so well. No matter how different our lives have been in the making of them, we come together at the same place. As mothers and daughters.

Thank you, Feeling.

COPA
 

New Leaf

Well-Known Member
Wow, New Leaf. You wrote a book, not a post.
Yes a book, I am too much in my writing I fear, I am rambling like a chatty old woman. Copa, if I wrote things that offended you, I am sorry. This is hard, this FOO processing, and I am forgetting my manners and becoming presumptuous. We all have our very unique histories.
I have a hard time picturing my mother as smiling at me. The affect I most associate with her is angry and hard. Even though she had a persona as the warmest woman in the world. My memory of her when I was a child was angry and temperamental and selfish. And that was much of my experience of her as an adult. I was outclassed.

But the thing is, if I think of her at her door when she would greet me, sometimes after years, she was smiling. I think we never really recovered from the hard times of my childhood. Except as she was dying.
That is rough, Copa, so hard. I am sad for you.

Actually she was mad because there had been a construction accident on her roof and she was resentful that I did not dedicate myself to helping her. Actually she did very well on her own. I am completely inept in those things. I think, too, she was resentful that I wanted to have so much fun and to live footloose and fancy free. She was happier with me when I was a drudge.
I am glad that you did not live your life as a drudge. That would have been very unfair to your individuality.

Thank you. M talks about this time. Last week he told his sister: Copa would have spent every dime she had and every dime her mother had to take care of her Mother, without thinking twice. He respected me in that. I am grateful for his respect.
It is nice that M respects you in that way. I am glad you have M, Copa.
I know. You must remember this. It has been 25 months since my mother died. I have said I almost died with her. There are still days when I fear I will never get better. Fewer now.
Yes Copa, it has not been that long, two years. Everyone has their own way to grieve, there is no time frame. I am glad the days are fewer for you with this feeling of never getting better.

There were others there to care for you Dad. And your sacrifice of yourself, he would not have been in a position to know or to appreciate. I was it for my mother.
Thank you for this Copa.
Being "it" for your mother must have been very, very difficult. When I was with Mom that one night after her procedure, it was exhausting. So much emotional turmoil to see Mom in a weakened state. I cannot possibly begin to imagine the shear strength it takes to be "it."

Yes. I think about this as well. I know you are speaking here of a memory, but I would like to die with my son near me, and M, if we are still together. Selfishly, as hard as it has been for me, I hope my son will be with me. Even if it is hard for him. I would want him to be with me as I die. I love him so much.

That love is everlasting, isn't it? So deep and infinite.

You are a wonderful person, Copa. I am honored to know you through posting.
Thank you very, very much,
Leafy
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
Hi Feeling,

Thank you for asking about us. My son has been calling every day. He has time on his hands because the daily working has stopped, now that summer is over. He seems not to be working at all and spends all of his time on the computer up to no good. Again the disasters are every day, all of the time. M thinks he is angling to come back here, and now that he mentions it, I think that may be the case.

Yesterday my son called and would not stop with the haranguing including about the Jews, which I draw the line at. He seems to believe that Sephardic Jews are descendants of the reptilian-martian species he believes in, as opposed to Ashkenazi, which I am. Like it makes a difference. He implored me to look at a youtube video of the Aipac convention (American Israel Pac) with a lady that "looks like Grandma" without a nose. (The sign of reptilian lineage.) Why in the world did I stay on the phone?

And then he mentioned getting into an argument with the father-brazilian about a biblical passage. I asked him, are you motivated to continue living there? Because insulting somebody about their deeply held beliefs seems counterproductive. He tried to assert that lack of proof nullified the man's beliefs and I asked him if he could site the proof for his own and what was the difference. And again reminded him of his self-interest and whether he was prepared with an alternative living situation.

He did call back and apologize for his strident tone. And I was encouraged. He attributed it to his illness. For a second I was hopeful and believed he was developing some insight.

I was sick until the early hours. Physically ill.

He called again this morning and I told him right off the bat: I will not get into it with you. It makes me ill. If you want to spend your time immersed in catastrophes or conspiracies, fine. But I choose not to. If you want to talk about something constructive and productive, that is something altogether different. In that case I will help you if I can.

What will you do to help me?

Come up with a constructive goal and put it into place. We will talk about it then. I will not do it for you.

Wednesday is his appointment with the liver doctor. I do not want to fight with him before that.

But I am worried now because if he does not have stable housing and any constructive activity that does not bode well for his maintaining treatment.

M thinks that my son will not be kicked out by the Brazilian Dad. M thinks my son will leave rather than pay rent--which is what happened last time. My son did not want to pay his part of the rent, and left to avoid doing so. The Dad asked for $500 which represented a quarter of the rent and bills. My son balked at that.

His SSI is about $900. That would still have left money for food and spending.

My son wants others to take responsibility for him.

It is much cheaper for him to live here where I live, but it is a disaster. He is preyed upon by everybody and lives very marginally. I pray he does not return here. I pray he does not return here. He hates it here. Does he not remember?

If he comes back here it will really motivate me to leave. But there really is no escape, because if my son is disorganized and marginal he will stop taking his liver medicine. The same liver medicine he is not taking now.

He was doing so good when he was working.

M says the reason his friend is not putting my son to work is because my son is not serious. The friend told my son it is because H has to favor his existing crew. But M says that if my son showed initiative and motivation he would be working, still.

I have several names of therapists who are pretty much local to me. I am thinking I need to follow through. The thing is I really think very little of most therapists.

I am a little bit better, but not that much. How are you, Feeling?

COPA
 
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