Manifestation Mtg tomorrow!

[goodgirlme]

Hi, 10 yr old son in 5th grade. Has ODD and ADHD. Suspended for hitting another student. This equals 11 days of suspension for the year. Manifestation mtg is tomorrow. School is very cooperative and working well with his BIP and IEP. BUT, what happens now? If he gets in trouble again, do we go through a Manifesetation mtg EVERy time? Or does his "ten day clock" start over at zero? If the hitting is found to be from his disability, I understand he goes back to school and FAPE is offered. I am concerned about "next time". He is labled as OHI because of his illlness. Can anyone give me some guidance? If he gets in trouble again can they suspend him again? and if they do suspend him, do they have to provide a tutor? FBA was done about month ago. Reasons for behavior mostly come down to 'wanting to be in control".

[TeDo]

If it is found that the behavior is a result of his disability, they have to revose the IEP and BIP so it doesn't happen again. If the IEP and BIP were good enough, this wouldn't be happening. Why did your son hit another student? Do you know the root cause? The clock does not go back to zero and he can be suspended again. Sorry. But, the team needs to keep revising until the whole plan works. What have his other suspensions been for?

A lot of us here have had children given the diagnoses of ADHD and ODD only to have it actually turn out to be something totally different. ODD is kind of a catch-all for "he seems to be oppositional and defiant but don't know WHY so we"ll call it this". In our case, it turned out to be ASD. Others have had it turn out to be other things. If they are doing the "heavy-handed" "you gotta do what adults tell you to do" "no excuses" type thing, it's not going to work if it is really something else. When was his last Functional Behavior Analysis (FBA) done? What did they say the reasons behind his behavior were.

Is he on any medications? Have there been any med changes (increases, decreases, change of meds) recently? Who diagnosed your son and when? What behaviors have caused the other suspensions?

I know, lots of questions but they are necessary so we can be of more help. You have come to the right place for answers and support. Welcome to our little corner of the world. We've all been there, are there, or trying to NOT go there.

[goodgirlme]

Wow, thanks, He was diagnosed by a psychiatrist 3 yrs ago as ODD and ADHD. He is on a mood stabilizer and Adderall. No recent changes. His outbursts have generally been physical, he hit another student. He "got mad and I hit him mom and I will do it again". He gets angry at little things, maybe another kid accidentally ran in to him or isusing the football at recess or feels someone is picking him so he lashes out. He has witnessed DV at his dad's house between dad and step mom.
If he gets suspended again, we've already had a manif mtg, do we have another? He is in counseling once a week. He also sees the school counselor once a week. He is angry alot. He gets made quickly.

[TeDo]

No, there will only be one manifestation hearing. I would highly recommend you find a neuropsychologist to do a thorough eval. It sounds like he is reacting the way he has seen it handled by Dad. Gfg1's FBA's all said "wants to be in control" when it ended up nothing could be farther from the truth. That is what the staff THINKS is the issue. There's a really good chance that it's not THE issue. It wasn't until we actually got the accurate diagnoses (and LOTS of fighting on my part) for them to realize they had done more damage than good by handling things the way they did.

I have to run the kids to their activities. I will fill you in more about our situation if you want later. Otherwise you can read some of my posts from early in the year. Good luck tomorrow.

[pepperidge]

What do you think about the stimulant? I know my own kids have gotten more aggressive on stimulant, though at least for one it seems to help with focus. Stimulants can make kids angry. What mood stabilizer is he on? Risperdal? Usually given for cases of aggression

Even if he gets suspended, (BTDT and hate that punishment) argue for them to provide work etc since he is on a disability.

[buddy]

HI there and welcome... so many of us have been in your shoes! You have found a great group here. I have felt so helped and supported. I hope you find the same.

So,you got the answer to the manifestation hearing... IF they say it is not related to his disability you need to fight it. It would be ridiculous to say not with that dx. Now as TeDo says, that particular combination of dx is often given by psychiatrists especially and usually after one visit even! Since his behaviors are so significant I would highly encourage you to get a neuropsychological evaluation done. At the manifestation hearing you should also ask for an independent evaluation, because as TeDo said, if their postiive behavior plan was working, really targeting the reasons for the behaviors, then he would not be struggling so much. I am going thru the same thing right now and just got an independent fba approved and they are letting us use the people I picked to do it. I am also using the disability law center for advocacy, the one in our county says on the website not to wait for the 10th suspension, call now! so you still can do that, even thought the manifestation det. is tomorrow. If you can call them or any other advocacy center (there should be a list of them on your paperwork for the IEP, the state dept of ed has them, and there are other agencies that do as well. The dept of ed can refer you too.

i have been trained in doing FBA's so I am going to share some of my bias, I have no idea of your son's eval so I am not saying it is wrong or anything, will just share what I have been taught and what I have seen go very wrong over and over... Often they are done by the people who are supposed to be trained in it but they are really trained in counting behaviors and they tend to have one pat form that is very commonly used and ends up saying if behaviors are likely "escape" "attention seeking" "control" or...I am having a brain fart but wlll think of it later. What it typically misses is that often the kid does not have the skills to change it. They also frequently (not always) miss checking for slow triggers and fast triggers... for example hunger, medication issues, not tolerating loud sounds, fear of men, dislike of writing, etc.... Usually a behavior starts because they dont now what to do or how to fix it in a better way. Just because a behavior gets a lot of attention does not mean that the kiddo was seeking it. And, if you didn't know what the heck to do, wouldn't you want to take control?? There can be motor issues that are very subtle that influence the way a child functions, also sensory integration issues and social skill deficits.

I have a low tolerance for kids being suspended repeatedly when they are in special education. If a child could change from this kind of "intervention" then it would work the first time. I would be embarassed as an educator to tell a parent that I was allowing a behavior to happen again and again without doing something different to address it in my class. But it happens again and again all over the country.

It is time to get tough. these people may be nice but may not be educated enough to help your child. There is likely some other issues going on and a couple of folks here can help explain more about some of the conditions that go with adhd that can really imact a child and also to know that adhd/odd is frequently a misdiagnosis, often ends up being ASD, PDD, Aspergers or bi-polar in children, etc... several others. It is so important to know because the types of intervetions are very different. For example, if he is more of a visual learner, they may need to give all directions visually...including behavior directions like time to go to your desk, time to clean up, etc. He may need an individual schedule every single day not just the class schedule on the board, then if there are changes they can help. If he is misunderstanding social situations that is a huge red flag for social communication disorders like ASD and pragmatic langauge disorder. the example given in the ball game is a classic issue. I had a student (and my son has done this too) who actually hit a girl after she threw a ball at him. The teache then threatened to hit him to show him what it felt like. Turns out the case manager didn't tell him the boy had Aspergers. No one would know unless you knew about autism, because it is a spectrum, many kids seem typical except for these types of behaviors. (this boy is in a gifted class by the way). Many kids like this need direct teaching to learn how to handle each social situation... and they can learn well! But just having exposure does not do it, as it does with kids who have behaviors due to lack of exposure... so that is why it is important to really find out what is driving all of this.

OK, I'll stop...sorry... it is a hot button for me and I am living it along with you...STILL (my son is nearly 15).

So, I find it useful to not only have the neuropsych, but also an occupational theray eval and speech/language/communication evaluation.

[soapbox]

Boy. Grade 5. ADHD.
Sounds familiar.

Lets see...
For starters, begining LAST year, his workload will have gone up exponentially.
From "learning to read"... to "reading to learn".
From "learning to write"... to producing significant written documents.

This is a common point for kids who have been struggling but under the radar, to drop off the cliff.
Others can tell you about the dxes that it could be instead of ADHD.
I'll tell you about some of the dxes that it could be as well as ADHD (i.e. co-morbid)

1) learning disabilities are frequently co-morbid with ADHD
2) half the kids with ADHD also have DCD (developmental coordination disorder)
3) 70% of the kids with ADHD plus a LD, also have APD

DCD = motor skills problems, caused by the way the brain is wired - not the muscles or the nerves.
Good site for basic info: CanChild Centre for Childhood Disability Research
Gross motor skills issues lead to social isolation, because school socialization centres around physical activity - the playground and sports. At best, its exclusion; at worst, severe bullying.
Fine motor skills issues wreak havoc with school tasks... writing, cutting, drawing, putting papers away, getting changed for gym (tying shoes, doing buttons, etc.)
The challenge is... most people take refusal to participate as "attitude", not "disability". So... the kid asks for help, the teacher tells him to try harder, or to sit down, shut up and get your work done. What they don't get is... help.

APD = auditory processing disorders. There are multiples, and most are not yet really commonly tested for. Seems like the most invisible one is to do with auditory figure ground: the ability to pick out one set of sounds from amoung a set of others... teachers voice in a noisy classroom. (Classrooms are extremely noisy, but teachers don't seem to hear that.) Often presents in the classroom the same as ADHD - not paying attention, not doing what was asked, fidgetty, etc. BUT... whole different problem, different accommodations and interventions.

Take his behavior problems as a cry for help.
Then, get all the helpers you can.
OT eval - sensory, and motor skills.
SLP eval - language, and auditory, including pre-screening for APDs - specifically ask for auditory figure ground.
And some form of comprehensive eval... neuropsych, or child development/behavioral team, or other such resource that will spend a number of hours testing from various angles.

The biggest thing right now is to get a better handle on what he is going through, what he is tripping on, what is really going on inside his head. The more you can get to the bottom of the issues, the better chance you have of turning him around.

[TeDo]

Take his behavior problems as a cry for help.
Then, get all the helpers you can.
OT eval - sensory, and motor skills.
SLP eval - language, and auditory, including pre-screening for APDs - specifically ask for auditory figure ground.
And some form of comprehensive eval... neuropsych, or child development/behavioral team, or other such resource that will spend a number of hours testing from various angles.

The biggest thing right now is to get a better handle on what he is going through, what he is tripping on, what is really going on inside his head. The more you can get to the bottom of the issues, the better chance you have of turning him around.

DITTO! Ditto! Ditto! You said it very well soapbox. Goodgirl, you should listen to this.