I think we need to define TT versus GFG

[KTMom91]

Interesting thread!

My only experience with a TT was while Son #2 lived with us, and he was night and day different from Miss KT. When he decided he didn't want to be part of the family, it took less than 24 hours of our ignoring him, not calling him to dinner, etc. before he decided he was better off in the family. Miss KT just didn't care.

[susiestar]

Excellent discussion. I have begun to see many disturbing things written off as TT. Mostly because no one wants to deal with it, at least that is what I am seeing.

Jess developed way early. Bras in 4th and 5th grade early. When she went to middle school the boys would use crowded hallways to grope her. Full on grab and feel her up. NOT "just" bra strap snapping, actual molestation.

The school principal and her homeroom teacher told me that this was TT behavior and to be "expected". They "couldn't do anything" because the halls were too crowded. The homeroom teacher was fresh out of college, not even 22 and flatter than a pancake. She actually SAID that Jessie should wrap ace bandages around her chest to flatten her and if jessie didn't then she "WANTED" the boys to feel her up.

THAT is ABUSE. NOT TT. So many many things are now said to be "TT" that would have meant "JUVIE" when I was a teen.

TT, IMO, means dramatic, self absorbed, loves phone and friends and hates school and rules. But mostly follows the rules, is involved in things, and often has a smart mouth but is rarely outright defiant w/o actual provocation.

That is my opinion, and I agree with Janet's description.

TT has become too easy a way to not deal with unacceptable behavior, IMO.

[Marguerite]

I think we have different ideas of what makes a TT. But then - what IS normal, in our household, anyway?

I described my eldest as PC. But some of her behaviours would definitely have fallen into GFG territory.

* Incredibly egocentric. "Where's mine?" was her frequent cry, especially if she came home from a party (having been eating party food, very special) to find we'd eaten a meal that was also a favourite of hers. She wasn't in need of food, just didn't want us to have anything she hadn't, even if she had had stuff we hadn't.

* a catalyst for fighting between household members - she would come home from uni (she lived with grandma during the week) and within minutes of her arrival home, people would be screaming at one another. Every freakin' time. And remember, I said 'uni'. She was legally an adult at this time.

* at times loudly defiant and aggressive. She did draw te line at physical attack, however. But then - so did PC2/GFG2.

* Even now in her late 20s, she can have serious anxiety problems. They were appalling when she was in her teens.

* capable of being sneaky and dishonest, was the earliest of my kids to become sexually active at about 15 or 16 (although not promiscuous - is now married to her first and only sexual partner). And lied about it, until her first UTI caught her out.

Whenever I've used the term "TT" what I've been trying to say, is that sometimes even a PC can be a big handful, epseically in their teens and especially if they have psychological damage to deal with. PC was molested at the age of 5, by an older boy (and I tihnk some oters) in the school playground. Just because it was "just another kid" doesn't mean it was any less damaging to her. She took two years to tell us anything, and then clammed up and refused to cooperate with therapy. Now she's an adult she wangts to deal with it but has buried it so deep she only knows it happened intellectually. But the damage continues, I believe.

I believe like a lot of other factors, TT is a spectrum. For PC, life hasn't been easy. She's grown up in a dysfunctional family. She's the only child to really remember me when I was not disabled and I beleive has resented me for becoming disabled. She then is angry at herself for being unfair and again, this becomes buried. Not healthy.

When I look back at some of the battles we had with PC, when I think of the things she told us about allegedly TT girls we all knew (who were using drugs and sleeping around in their early teens and their parents never knew, still don't know) then perhaps my concept of TT is more elastic than for many of you.

So when does the label change to become a GFG one? For me, it is when the problems become so great that they require intervention of some sort, either meds, or therapy or a serious modificaiton of parenting methods. When a disability is diagnosed and treatment put in place. When the parents have to go to further lengths than normal, to support that child towards the goal of a normal, healthy, independent and happy adult life.

Marg

[tiredmommy]

I don't have a teen but I'd have to hazard a guess that TT behavior is mostly not dangerous and/or will be grown out of by the teen given a reasonable period of time w/out outside interventions. A TT may dress, for example, in a way that is distasteful to his parents or other elders but quickly figures out how to dress appropriately when looking for a part time job. Even if they hate it! The kid with the purple hair that has a shot of getting into a good college most likely will take the interview seriously enough to dye her hair back au natural. They do enough school work to at least pass a class even if they're capable of excelling. They might be perpetually angry with their parents but reach out when they need them.

A gfg tends to take things to extreme and push the limits consistently. They either don't care about consequences or aren't capable of meeting expectations. They spite themselves and hurt those they love... and sometimes feel horrible about it. They are often slaves to their impulses and insecurities. They often resent authority because, IMHO, not measuring up makes them feel inadequate especially as their peers are beginning to find their way in the world.

[DazedandConfused]

I made a comment a couple of weeks ago that Wm had an element of typical teen because he didn't want his goals to be "boring". I hear that a lot from TTs and it stuck me when you wrote that about Wm.

Is he TT? No way.

[everywoman]

I have raised both a male TT, a female TT, a male gfg, and fostered a female gfg.

The biggest difference is that TT's learn from the mistakes they make. They do the same things GsFG do---but they also know when to stop. Both of my TT's have experimented with drugs and alcohol. Neither ever took it to extremes. The gsfg---well they live in the extreme.

Another difference is the TT's accept responsibilities for their bad choices, face their consequences and work to find their own solutions. They are truly sorry when they do something wrong. Again, both of my TT's have been some bad choices, but they also have been more than willing to face their consequences and have worked hard to overcome them. Their first concern was how their actions would affect those they love. The gsfg have always looked for others to blame. They are always concerned about self first and can't see how their actions might affect others.

Finally, my TT's are grateful and satisfied with their lives. They have goals and look for opportunities to move forward and are willing to work to get the things they want. The gsfg are constantly looking for you to give them something---make it easier for them to get what they want---and they are insatiable.

That's just my .25.

[Marguerite]

The biggest difference is that TT's learn from the mistakes they make.

I think this is because for a lot of GFGs, they repeat their mistakes for a number of different reasons. First, they may not be aware of what they are donig wrong and so cannotchange what they do not recognise. And second, they may know that they've just done something wrong and be able to tell you what they did badly, but due to impulse control problems they will still get it wrong next time.

Impulse control issues plus lack of understanding/capability - you can get that with a number o fdisorders, including younger TTs (usually well and truly pre-teen, though, in PCs).

Another difference is the TT's accept responsibilities for their bad choices, face their consequences and work to find their own solutions. They are truly sorry when they do something wrong.

Again, you can get this in GFGs too, but their ability to get it right next time will still be limited by their ability to self-control.

We all cope with different patterns of behaviour from our GFGs and what one of us might find intolerable, another of us might consider normal and acceptable.

Trying to find the border between normal and dysfunctional can be really difficult.

Marg

[MidwestMom]

Marg, good post. I also think, as I've said, that gfg's tend to lack good social skills. Now that's not EVERYTHING. L. is sixteen with Aspergers and, although he's not a TT, he is a really good kid who makes good choices. His conscience is very strong and he has good values and character.

GFG's tend to be very confused about who they are and what they should do (I was a gfg). They have trouble staying focused on their goals or often, because many have trouble in school, give up and rebel because they have the attitude that life is crummy AND because almost all gfg's are very impulsive. They know the consequences, but, at the time they are doing something they know is wrong, they set them aside in their brains and just do what they want to do. And then they, being more emotionally liable, get angry when they are called on it, and may act out worse as if it is your fault, not their fault.

Sadly, looking back, I don't really think they are 100% able to correct themselves. They need a lot of help and MUST be on board with that help or nothing will change. In my day, there was no help. I desperately wanted somebody to guide me as to how to behave so I wouldn't always be "bad."

Today there is a lot of help. We go overboard trying to help our kids. Unfortunately, many gfg's, especially those who go on to become criminals, just plain don't work with us. If they don't take advantage of what is offered, nothing will change. GFGs tend to get stuck in behaviors that they can't or won't change (I'm not sure which).

I read that 80% of the teens DON'T cause trouble. That surprised me and made me feel hopeful for our future. But that 20%...they're the gfgs. Often they self-sabotage their own lives...and, of course, it's never their faults. IMO a lot of them will go on to develop personality disorders. JMO

[Sheila]

Lot of good insight here.

Gfg is definately not a TT. I can't imagine anyone having 2 or 3 TTs that acts like gfg and everyone lives through it.....

I think this is a good thread to archive when everyone is finished responding.

[busywend]

Where does the parent's expectations come into play? I have seen some TTs be labeled as out of control, when really the parent's just would not accept anything less than perfect.

I think we are all safe here - LOL! We are never expecting perfection with our kids. But, many parents with PCs and 0 GFGs, do have an unrealistic expectation of their TTs.

Extreme. That is what I think about when I compare my GFG to a TT. Everything was extreme with her. To the Nth degree. Over the top. Out of control. Irrational. These are the words that separate a GFG from a TT.

Similar behaviors, but extreme.

[timer lady]

Janet, I love your definition of a teen GFG. It certainly fits the tweedles.

There has been a great deal of thought put into your responses. I have given this so much thought.

As a TT, I slammed doors, but I darned well had to go downstairs & apologize or suffer the consequences. I we egocentric but learned quickly that didn't work well in a family of 8. The phone, the music my parents hated (Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin - seems so innocent today), the goofy clothes & such.

AND I learned from the dumb mistakes I made. Staying out late with a boyfriend to find my dad laying in my bed with a flashlight. Go to crawl in bed & the light flips on in my eyes. I was grounded for 3 months. Boy did I learn.

The tweedles do the same things over & over & just do not learn. Many of their actions not so typical teen - putting themselves in very dangerous situations by running, physical aggressiveness, verbal threatening, & the non stop impulsivity.

Sheila, I'd like to see this archived as well.

[Wonderful Family]

A lot of good comments to think about.

In my mind, TT's typically don't require a brick wall to hit them before they stop and change their behaviors; my GFG must hit the brick wall a couple of times before he does. But once he changes it, it's typically the end of "that" behavior. Of course, something else will quickly take it's place . . .

[totoro]

TT's don't require medicine to help them through the day.
TT's don't cry that their brain made them do it.