"Defiance" is diagnosis of child therapist

[crazymamawoman]

We met with the therapist today without GFG and he said that we've allowed her to be defiant by not disciplining her. He said even though we don't give in to her demands, she's still "winning" because she argues and fights for several hours. He advised that we sit with her against the wall holding her still until she calms down.

After everything I've read here, I'm really second guessing this. Should we go to another doctor? Our insurance only lets us see someone with a referral from our regular pediatrician.

[smallworld]

Run, don't walk to another doctor. You should ask your ped for a referral to a neuropsychologist and a child psychiatrist OR a multidisciplinary team at a children's or university teaching hospital.

[Steely]

Ditto what smallworld said.....

I had a pdoc once tell me that my gfg did not have outlets for his anger, and if I just let him break some dishes when he was mad than he would be fine. Huh??????? I conceded to this drs advice, gave my son some "dishes", and my son proceeded to wreck not just his "dishes", but the entire house. He became completely out of control.
We warrior moms have to go with our gut. I knew this pdoc was wrong at the time, but I went with his advice because he was the "professional". Go with your intuition - if you think this is crazy advice - then it is.

[Big Bad Kitty]

In case you still have a doubt in your mind...

I third that motion. Get to another doctor ASAP. That's just crazy.

Best of luck, and many prayers your way.

[Sara PA]

Does you child respond well to being physically restrained? That was one sure way to keep things going in our house. Even now when my son is upset he doesn't like being touched, let alone held down.

It seems like your child gets "stuck" on something rather than whatever it is the therapist thinks she is doing. More like obsessive than manipulative.

[Allan-Matlem]

Hi,
I don't think a situation where your kid is ' loosing ' and you ' winning ' would improve things. I don't believe that we can break kids into submission , they will resist even more. Even behaviorists , and I am not , say that honey catches more flies than vinegar so use positive reinforcements. personally I prefer workingwith -problem solving approaches like that of the explosive child , not a doing to approach. Check the site http://thinkkids.org and http://explosivekids.org - see articles forum especially the handout. I think the starting point has to be - relaxing the environment , putting behaviors into basket c = ignoring in the time being and trying to bond , connect in one and one time , using dialog questions to direct conversation , you listen , she speaks. Try to focus on perspective taking, empathy , addressing concerns - what's the problem first and then look at solutions. It is easier to talk about non emotive issues first , stories , new s items, your experiences , video story etc what she thinks, what the kid in the story thinks , how could they solve the problem. Avoid saying NO , we set limits also when we reach mutually satisfying agreements. This is not a quick fix , it is a process ,but helps the relationships and promotes various cognitive skills that may be lacking. I recommend getting the latest edition of the book , the explosive child and trying to find out what is getting in your child's way. Greene says kids do well if they can , not kids do well if they want to. Defiance can be explained as pure choice or a learning disability in areas for eg frustration tolerance , flexibility and adaptability
I hope this helps
Allan

[witzend]

Well, I wouldn't do that, but I would put her in her room and refuse to interact with her until she stopped. You don't say how old she is, so it's hard to know what time period we are talking about.

Believe me when I say that M was totally defiant from about age 6 on. Things got better when he was about 10 or so and we got a therapist who said essentially the same thing about him, and recommended time outs. We thought he was a total A S S to suggest it. But he explained to us that the point of the time out was to end the discussion/argument. There wasn't usually going to be a resolution, because really, the discussion was just over, period.

The recommendation was to get a timer, and timeout lasted as many minutes as he was old. Three years old, three minutes, etc. The timer started when he went into his room. He had to stay in there and be quiet - not interact with us in any way - for the time set. If he started kicking the wall or hollering at us, the timer stopped. I might quietly go to his door and say "The timer will start again when you are quiet." When he was quiet, the timer would start again. When it went "ding", he could come out. What he could not do when he came back out was take back up where he started. If it was an important issue, he could have a calm discussion at a later time, but acting out brought him back to time out. Most times, there was no valid reason to revisit the issue as we had made our decision before the hissy fit started.

I know that people pooh-pooh time outs, but it's the way you use the time out that makes it work, not the time out. Your GFG and you both need to know what the time out is there to accomplish. The time out is about ending the craziness. It's not about punishment, it's not about bringing the argument down a notch. It's about your child knowing that you will not engage in their acting out anymore. You have a great head start by not giving in. Try the timer. We never thought it would work, but it kept the peace in our house. M still had his problems, believe me, but I would never have made it through my marriage or as his mother (I seriously would have walked out) if it weren't for the time outs.

[Allan-Matlem]

Hi,
I am one of those parents who don't like TOs but for some they work. I think the Nutured Heart approach of TOs as short as a few secs , followed by positive affirmations is better than 1 min per age. I agree the important step is that the child perceives it not as punishment but helping to calm down and change gears. I prefer the word ' chill out time ' and giving a child a ' comfort corner ' with a book , CD etc that she can calm down
http://www.explosivekids.org/dcforum...umID2/149.html

Allan

[kris]

<span style='font-size: 11pt'> <span style='font-family: Georgia'> <span style="color: #660000"> time outs can be effective. they were for both of mine when they were young....prior to my son's gfg phase. once his depression started & he started raging restraining him was out of the question. any form of touch drove him crazy. if your child has sensory issues in general or rage related starting off w/physical restraint will probably exacerbate the situation.

w/o a profile that give age/dx/meds if any it's hard for us to advise you re: alternative.

kris </span> </span> </span>

[MidwestMom]

IMO see a Child Psychiatrist with the MD) and/or a NeuroPsych. I would have been out the door pronto. Unfortunately, there are bad apples. I start with the Big Guns==the Doctor of Psychiatry and the Psycologist who does intensive evaluations (NeuroPsychs). IMO I wouldn't bother with a non-MD therapist or even a regular Psycologist. Or experience with so many of them were very bad. If your child has a disorder, imo, time outs alone are rarely effective. You need to find out exactly what is going on. I seriously doubt it's your parenting. Most of us have been told that if we were "better" parents our kids would behave. It's not always true. My son, who is on the autistic spectrum, refused to stay in time outs. He got much better once we treated the ASD. JMO