new here... long but opinions wanted

[trsturself]

hello everyone. I'm with all the other newbs and am so thankful for finding a site where people actually understand having a difficult child!
my story... my daughter is 5 1/2. She has no dx yet but we think she is gifted and possibly SID and ODD. She is extremely sensative and emotional. The smallest things can trigger all out fits. We are starting the process of getting her tested (appt with ped this coming friday).
because of the opinions on this forum i'm going to push for a neuro-psych test.
we have been a squeaky wheel w/ her teachers because the work they are doing is stuff she mastered a few years ago. her teacher refuses to give her harder work (even though they are supposed to).

my last few days....
last thursday my daughter's day care called and said she needed to be picked up immediately. she was screaming and spitting at the teacher. I was not told what started the fit only that they couldn't handle it anymore. When I got there I was informed that she was not welcome back. Talk about stress! Her K class is only 3 hours long. DH and I both work full-time an hour from home. The daycare she was going to was on the school grounds. We do not have anyone that can pick up/take her to daycare after school.

So... friday my DH and I both take off work (I do not get paid for days off) and talk w/ her principle. This is when we find out that she has been in her office half dozen times already (we were not told once!). We talk w/ the principle and are told that her tantrums are not normal and come about because she is spoiled! She also said "tantrums do not continue unless they work somewhere". She denied that gfg was acting out because she was bored (even though she's getting in trouble for talking to other kids during work time after she's already finished her work). So! Today is the first day for gfg at a new daycare (we found one down the street that has a bus to take and pick her up from school), the first day of a new schedule at school (parent-teacher conferences), AND first day with a new teacher (back from maternity leave)!!!
Of course you can see where that's leading.
I get a call from the principle around 10 letting me know gfg was in her office (I requested to be notified). apparently they were working on journals and the teacher told gfg to turn the page and start working on the next one. i assume gfg did not feel she was done w/ the page she was on and didn't want to turn the page. teacher insisted. gfg ended up throwing a chair (accidently hit a kid) and kicking at the teacher.
this was her first incident of violence, usually she's just a screamer.
the principle said that she was on off-the-record-in-school suspension (she wasn't allowed to go back to her K class the rest of the day).

Where I want your opinion is... my DH wants to take away TV and social visits for the week (my parents spend wed nights w/ her) as punishment. if it happens again, take away the right to pick out her clothes (don't ask me how that relates), then if she still does not "see that her actions are wrong" take away all of the toys in her room and make her earn them back w/ good behavior.
at first he went the most extreme and wanted to take every possesion, priveledge, and item of control away from her. this is what i've talked him down to.

what do you think?

[busywend]

First of all - welcome!

I think your GFG for sure needs an evaluation and I am glad you have decided on the neuropsych route. That is really a great place to start.

The principal needs to get a clue. Has she never dealt with kids before this year? Tantrums only happen if they work somewhere! Maybe with a PC. Has she never seen a truly frustrated child? Or adult for that matter!

I understand your DH's thought process. They are the usual parenting techniques. Unfortunately, those usually do not work with our kids. It ends up frustrating them more.

I think at 5 & 1/2 you do have to try everything. I am assuming there has been reason for punishment before this? What have you tried and what was the outcome?

I have seen the take everything away and let them earn it back a bit at a time work for some time. Out of your 3 options that is the one I would try first.

[meowbunny]

And how does taking things away from her at home help her learn to control her temper? She's not going to understand the correlation between that type of punishment at home for her behavior at school. I tried your husband's method. It not did not work, it caused an escalation in school behavior. Ultimately, it caused a serious hatred of school.

Try talking to the principal again and see if appropriate consequences can be thought up for her at school. Explain you are working to get her evaluated but the appointment for testing is still a bit down the road.

What do you do when she has temper tantrums at home? Is there anything that works to keep some of them from happening? If so, give these tips to the teacher and principal.

Do be sure that the new after-school care is aware she has problems and that you are working on getting help. It will go a long way if she has a hissy fit there. I found the more honest I was about my daughter's behavior, the more likely the day care was to work with me.

First, it is time to get an IEP. If they have gifted classes, fight to get her in. If they don't, fight to get her more advanced work in class. Maybe you could contribute some work books she could use in class after she finishes the regular class work. Boredom can cause a lot of bad behavior.

Another thing to check is food allergies. You can do this via elimination diets. For a week or two, record her behavior on an hourly basis (best done when school is not in session). Then, eliminate an item of food such as gluten (breads, pasta) and keep up the diary. See if there is any change. Then try eliminating food dyes. These are two of the largest culprits for behavior issues for many kids.

Good luck in your battles with the school. I hope you can get the neuro-psych eval. It really is the best way to go.

[Hound dog]

Welcome to the board. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/flower.gif[/img]

Principal needs to get a clue. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rolleyes.gif[/img]

I'm also glad you decided on going to neuropsych route. A good decision.

As far as punishment, I guess that would depend on what usually works well for her. I've had to get awfully creative with my gfgs over the years.

If getting to choose her outfits each day is a really big deal for her, taking it away might be a good punishment. At this point, though, I'd hesitate at any extreme in punishment. She's already highly frustrated at school, school is also punishing her, and home should be a place she can relax and unwind. Plus you may need a hold out punishment later on down the road.

Hugs

[trsturself]

Thanks for all the replies.
I found out after picking her up that she didn't have breakfast. The new daycare provides breakfast and she didn't like their choices so she didn't eat. So that's 2 major changes, no food, and reduced sleep all on the same day. Ask me why I'm not surprised at her behavior.

Daycare... we talked in depth with the director of the new daycare before deciding to put her there. She is aware of her triggers, how to help her beat the tantrums (cooling off alone), etc. She was very understanding about finding what works for each child and offered a chair in her office as a cool down spot. Gfg had no problems there today (except for not being allowed to eat the breakfast she brought from home that I didn't know she wouldn't be allowed to do).

Gifted... they offer differentiated curriculum for gifted K at her school. The problem is her teacher was a sub and didn't want to put any extra effort in. We already tried giving her a math workbook to give gtg work out of and she said it would be a great thing at home, but that she wouldn't do it at school. We talked to the principal and she grudgingly and dismissively said she will talk to her regular teacher when she comes back (wed - sorry I was mistaken in my original post, I thought she came back today).

Punishment... we haven't found anything that works for her. She is upset about it at first but one or two days in she gets over it. The thing she likes the most is tv. She uses it to wake up in the mornings (one show before school) and to unwind after school (one show while I make dinner). If we threaten the loss of that she usually does what we're asking. However one day she lost the tv for 2 weeks. she missed it every once in awhile but I don't think it accomplished anything.

principle... she supposedly has over 30 years of experience and has a special ed. background. We've told her that we are working on getting the tests done and she thinks that's a good idea. More to help people see gfg's reactions as a symptom not just a bad kid.

I'm with meowbunny. I think the discipline should be about teaching. The only thing I see this punishment teaching her is that we don't like the behavior. Which is a good thing to learn, but it doesn't teach her how to avoid it in the future. Is there a happy medium? What are some techniques you guys have found for helping your gfg learn how to manage their behavior?

I have the books The Strong-Willed Child and The Out-of-Sync child but I'm not making as much progress on them as I'd like.

[Hope]

A lot of people here have had success following the ideas in the book The Explosive Child.

Milk is another common food allergy that can affect kids' behaviour. My former GFG gets mean and aggressive if she has any milk.

FWIW, I wouldn't take away TV for 2 weeks, especially for a 5 year old. Mostly because it would leave me with nothing else to take away for 2 weeks.

[Big Bad Kitty]

Hi there and welcome to the board.

Get a hold of "The Explosive Child" (Ross Greene). It specifically deals with consequences and picking your battles when it comes to difficult children.

IMHO, if your child is already being punished IN SCHOOL for something she is doing IN SCHOOL, then there is no reason for her to be further punished AT HOME. I don't think the correlation is there.

Your school's principal sounds like a real gem. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rolleyes.gif[/img]


You found a very safe place to land. Again, welcome.

[Marguerite]

Welcome. I hear you. We went through this too. I feel I know your child.

My 2c worth -

* Get her tested. Fast. Neuropsych. There are a number of possibilities, but high on the list to be considered, I would put PDD in some form. This is screaming at me, this sounds so familiar.

* Get "The Explosive Child". Fast. Read it. PM me if you want an advance, private, review of the book to give you a heads up and some early tips. You need this book. The principal needs this book. It isn't a cure, but it might help.

* DO NOT PUNISH WHAT SHE CANNOT CONTROL. The purpose of punishment is to help teach the child that certain behaviours are unacceptable and will be met with negative consequences; the eventual aim to reduce the negative behaviours and bring about improvement. Is it working? No? Then why is it not working? Think about how it all connects together.
Bad behaviour - is it deliberate? Can the child stop him/herself? Or is the child simply out of control?
The next thing to consider - does the child know what is the correct behaviour? If so, then why the bad behaviour?
In general, a very bright but badly behaved child who has other issues beginning to really be seen - they know what is right and how they should behave. They really do know. But in the heat of the moment, they lose control. Punishing afterwards - they're often already punishing themselves for losing control, especially if you handle discipline the right way and reinforce this. You don't need to take anything away, they have got the message. But getting the message, and preventing the next meltdown - a long way apart. Punishment will not increase their success in maintaining control when frustrated. Again, read "The Explosive Child". Kids like this generally do a lot worse behaviourally with the sort of discipline methods which worked so well on us and which are considered the benchmark. And if it's not working, find another way.

* Please, NEVER AGAIN use the term "act out". Message for everybody - I think this is a term foisted on us parents by teachers/caregivers who see any 'misbehaviour' as under the control of the child, deliberate, malevolent and indicative of deep problems at home. Instead, I feel we should use the term "misbehave" because that does not imply deliberate control. Better still, refer to "behaviour problems" or "tantrums". But "act out" is a misleading euphemism, in my book. Sorry to sound so harsh - it's just that I've heard it used too often to downplay the urgency of getting help for a child who simply isn't coping. "Oh she doesn't really have a problem, she's just acting out." Acting WHAT out? What does it really mean, anyway?

I think your daughter has SID issues affecting what she is prepared to eat. You need to negotiate with them about her breakfast. You shouldn't bulldoze through what the school wants, nor should you insist she "eats up like a good little girl" if it really is a big issue for her. This will only lead to bigger problems for you as she gets older. There ARE ways of encouraging her to diversify her exposure to other foods, but force is not the way. In many ways with these kids, force is NEVER the way. You will lose.

I also think she has major issues with task-changing. She needs to be allowed some leeway to progress at her own pace (faster, if necessary) and also some warning of task-change. For example, "Sharon, in five minutes we will be finishing with our colouring and putting our books away to go outside to play. Get ready to finish; maybe close your book sooner if you finish sooner." They need support to task-change, not force or ultimatums. An egg-timer can help, the ones with sand in them. The only problem here - she might get engrossed in watching the sand and not get ANY work done!

And an advance tip from "The Explosive Child" - you, and the school, need to watch and study her to see what sets her off - then do your utmost to head off a tantrum BEFORE it happens. Never expect her behaviour to be age-appropriate (forget "You should have grown out of that by now" because it just isn't appropriate for a lot of GFGs). They do eventually 'get it' but not at the same age as others, no matter how much smarter in other areas they seem to be.
An example - she's about to run outside in the snow, with no coat on. You COULD stop her and force her arms into a coat, but she could begin to rage. Or you COULD say to her, "You need to put a coat on first because it's really cold outside," and insist until she gets angry at being delayed and you get a meltdown. You COULD say, "Do you want your red coat or your blue coat?" and give her a choice - she's at least wearing A coat, now. Or you COULD say, "Put your coat on," but stop insisting because you can see that if you do, you will get a meltdown. Instead, you let her go out in the cold without having forced the issue - she will very soon be back for her coat - her own choice - because SHE accepts that she needs it. If you have tried to force the issue she may choose to be stubborn just to make a point, but a lot of tis comes down to them needing to learn self-management, rather than having us always trying to manage them.

It seems like spoiling, it seems to be a disastrous way to go, but if you think it through and can get into her head, this can work far better (and it's not as much work as you'd think, either).

Keep on being the squeaky wheel. And at home, give her as much academic stuff as she wants. Immerse her in it. Put posters up on the walls, buy educational software for the computer. If she shows an interest in something, let her have more info about it.

It sounds like you are already doing a lot of good things for her. Keep us posted on how you go. She sounds like a kid with real potential.

Marg

[Mrs Smith]

Ditto what Marg said. This teacher sounds like a bad fit for your daughter. Is there another option? With kids like this, the right teacher can make all the difference.

[Star*]

Hi and welcome,

My son at age 5 was also "gifted". I worked with him at home as much as possible with colors, shapes, numbers. He talked at 7 months old and by 1 year he was forming 3-4 word sentences. I refused to have him tested. I wasn't sure I wanted to know just how smart he was.

When he hit kindergarten it was pretty mild. He was ahead of most of the other children and did get a little bored and fidgity, but for the most part there was enough stimulation in the class for him to keep occupied. First grade he was a little chatty, but not ugly. He had a teacher that was back from maternity leave and had twins, a cheating husband, no money and suffered from lack of experience, and PPD after birth.

He was taken by his biofather and abused during the last half of second grade. And after that he was the most difficult child ever. He couldn't sit still, he would rage, he would trash personal property, his mouth would have made a sailor pale. I lost a terrific job (40k) year because of the schools inability to do what I had WASTED countless hours writing ideas and speaking to them about.

His second grade teacher however was a GEM in a box of very unpolished rocks. She was in her own right - an outcast. At nearly 500 lbs. she had to have special "everything" so maybe it was that reason that let her be more understanding and tolerant (NOT a pushover) of my son.

She very clearly set the limits with him. There were no dumb beads on the desk or clothespins taken away for behavior. She said "No one in life takes your chips, or clothespins or beads away for misbehaving I'm not going to do that in here." Her classroom was MAGICAL. You walked in and it was just so cool. So many things to inspire young minds- not sterile. It made you want to stay in there and get the rewards that she offered for good behavior. She would rock the kids in her special wooden rocker reinforced for her weight, hugs all day long - just tons and tons of praise. My son is a praise junkie if you know how to do it properly. Just praising all the time is hapless.

When my son wasn't able to stay at his desk - she offered him choices - when he wasn't able to make a decision she would then reaffirm the consequence, then add the reward of making the choice. Much like Marg said about the coats. When he absolutely would say "I'm not going to either desk, THEN he was given the consequence. Sometimes it was taking away his recess time. It was soon discovered that he LIKED skipping recess to stay in her room and the consequences were modified. She never told him he COULD NOT stay in with her - it just wasn't a punishment any longer.

When he would finish his work ahead of the other children - it was checked then and there. When his paper was 100% she gave him a new puzzle to work on, and a desk ALL to himself in a corner of the class to do it at WITH headphones that had hooked on phonics playing.

Immediate and short term punishments work best. If he did feel the urge to rage they had a code worked out and he would grab the hall pass and travel down the hall to the "gym" (a room with mats on the wall) or he would have to stand in the corner but ONLY until he could get himself together. There was no time limit on the "THINKING" corner. It wasn't punitive as much as it was creative- You need to go THERE and think, it's like the place you go to think QUIETLY. When he couldn't be quiet she would get him by the hand and lead him up onto her lap for a rock again saying "When you choose to be quiet you can go back to your desk OR to the thinking corner." He really got into the PUZZLE DESK for HIM ONLY thing -he still talks about it today and used puzzling in RTC as an outlet for anger.

I think a few more years in her class would have made a lifetime of learning greater and better. She was a true teacher. Unfortunately for us - my x got into the scene and ruined a little life. By the time we got him back and safe - the damage was done and it's been 11 years trying to help him help himself.

The best thing I can advise to you at this point, and probably sound like a broken record to newbies - is therapy. NOT just for her - but for you and your husband too. If you don't know how to "play the game" you aren't going to be good opponents unless you can find a way to "one up" her, and cut across her behavioral playing field. I liken the therapist to a coach. He's going to have strategies, a game plan, and you and hubby are going to have to think like never before in order to help her win.

Without someone coaching your team - I predict utter chaos. This isn't something to be ashamed of, and actually most people find that going to someone and talking about the "YOU WON'T BELIEVE WHAT IS GOING ON IN OUR HOUSE." is healthy. Nothing gets solved with people who don't have a clue - your preschool is clueless and has no game plan with her. A therapist - would.

Hugs
Best of luck
Star

Oh and by the way - the principal that told you that tantrums are tolerated somewhere; has never had the pleasure of dealing with a child that has a DISABILITY. My standard comment when I heard that one for the first time was "MY GOD - I bet you expect kids in wheelchairs to navigate stairs and blind children to just sit quietly and listen to the other students!" My son isn't spoiled, he isn't bad - he's disabled, but NOT as badly as you for not having tolerance for someone with an invisible disability." (She's the kind that look at those people with the blue or red handicapped tags in the handicapped spots and say "I don't see a disability - they are faking getting a closer parking spot, and of course she would KNOW more than a doctor that did the paperwork to ISSUE that tag FOR the person who if given a choice would park farther away and walk.) Baboon.