10 y/o girl, ODD, Borderline (BPD), and/or something else???

[Caribbeangirl4ev]

So I'm very new here, not exactly sure where to start... I guess I'll just jump right in.... I have a 10 y/o little sister. She makes everything a fight that involves her being told to do or not do something. It sounds normal to most people, but it's taken to an entirely different level... She makes my mom cry every day... It is as simple as having to get up in the morning, take a shower, or brush her hair. Even today, after spending all yesterday with a friend playing outside, spending the night out, and coming home around 2pm, she was just asked to unpack her things, after complaining(as soon as she came in the door) that she wanted to go back outside and play because she was bored(not even inside for 5mins), and to spend some time with her family(our mother and I). Immediately she became upset which grew to being infuriated when the answer was still not right now. It had to be her way, so she proceeded to throw one of her "temper tantrums" which involves name calling and other things of the sort. To me personally, she's become violent... Every day is a challenge...

No one ever sees her dark side besides myself, our mother, and our grandmother. She literally makes us miserable. My mom has said time and time again that she loves her so much, but she makes living in the same home terrible... Of course, she can be great throughout parts of the day, but things can change in an instant... Please feel free to ask any questions! I just want us to have a happier home...
Thank you!

 

[BusynMember]

Has your mother ever taken her to be evaluated by, say, a neuropsychologist? Is she on any medication? Can you tell us if she has always been this way? Sounds like she is one of our "differently wired" kids. They tend to be hard to parent because they have so much trouble controlling themselves, even though it seems like they are doing it on purpose because often they hold it in in public...then it all comes out on the family.

 

[TeDo]

I'm with Midwest Mom. It sounds like she really has a problem with what is called "change of mind-set". That's where she has an idea in her head and when that doesn't happen, it causes chaos in her head and results in anxiety that she can't process, at least not quickly. My difficult child 1 has that issue and it's worse when my response is vague. He does a lot better when I give him specifics like "not now but you can at 5:00" or "you have to come in and do x and y before you can go back out". We've worked VERY hard to get to this point. It by no means happened overnight.

Another issue it could be is what is called "transitions". When she's doing one thing and is asked to do something else and is expected to do it immediately, it also causes chaos for her which causes anxiety that she's not able to handle appropriately. That is also something we have been working on for a long time with difficult child 1. I have to give him countdowns (10 minutes, 5 minutes, 2 minutes, 1 minute) or "markers" (after this level of the game is done or at the next commercial or ....). It gives his brain a chance to process the request and follow through.

When I do slip up and expect something from him NOW, we have problems. He really is wired differently and it's not his fault that's his reality. I am the one who had to change my way of looking at things and I had to change my approach. We have come a long way since I started seeing things from his perspective after reading the books The Explosive Child by Ross Greene and What Your Explosive Child Is Trying To Tell You by Doug Riley. I would HIGHLY recommend your mom (and you depending on your age) read these books and try what they recommend. I alsl HIGHLY recommend your mom have her evaluated by a GOOD child psychiatrist at the very least. Ideally, a GOOD neuropsychologist would be better but that's not feasible for many people.

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[buddy]

Hi. Sorry you are living with this Chaos. If you read through posts here you will see many parents deal just as much with the issue of how to deal with having typical children in the mix of all of this. Do you mind if I ask how old you are? You dont need to tell exactly, just wondering if you are a young teen, older teen, young adult, etc?

Do you think your parents would be interested in visiting our site? It is very hard to figure out what is going on with a person like that. Sadly what is on the outside ends up pushing people away and indeed it is really hard to like someone when theyare so mean and abusive to you. Often, the trick is to dig and figure out what is driving all of that and it takes very specialized people. Not always easy to find or fund.

I hope you are doing ok, many people here will understand your struggles and it is not fun. Keep focused on you, your interests, and growing into who you want to be. Take time daily to do something fun for yourself, ok?

 

[Caribbeangirl4ev]

So i am turning 17 in less than 3 weeks and she will be 11 in less than 3 months. She has been seeing an art therapist for a few months or so and isnt on any medication. I dont know if this helps, but when she was a baby she had kawasaki's disease and also hated her carseat with a passion... Would be crying and screaming as soon as she was put into it... And we both have daddy issues. She never got to get to know him because he left before she was born and was a jerk the few times she saw him. He's a dead beat.... I just stopped to speaking to him myself after 3 years of verbal/emotional abuse 5 months ago(which i just started talking about to my mom then; still am struggling with blaming myself; my sister doesnt know about any of that).
My mom has done research before on her own and says that my sister matches the behavior of children with ODD. Our father's side of the family has a history of of ADHD and literally almost everyone of them have bipolar disorder.
No one in public often see her behave as she does at home(so they dont believe it and shes an amazing liar unless its not something bad thats being asked like "did you clean your room today?") and our mom is tired of the drama(my sister and i tend to fight quite a bit) so she doesnt even want to hear it anymore.
Oh and once after she made our mom crazy(maybe a week or two ago) i asked her to explain what had happened and told her where she was wrong, she got very upset and said she wasnt. She truly doesnt believe that what she does is wrong, feels its the fault of whomever she is mad at, and has admitted it before. But our mom has told me that my sister, after a big fight, has cried and said that shes sorry and doesnt know why she acts that way and that she cant control it. I havent heard of that happening for a while though.
Like i said before, she has terrible days, terrible moments, and good days and moments too. It all varies and she used to get away with it all. Especially with our grandma, but her and our mom have tried to stand their ground and be firm much more now which has helped me a lot. My grandma and i used to fight about that a lot because she always took my sisters side(even when she was wrong) but now we're great.
I hope this helps!

 

[BusynMember]

I don't think this is a parenting issue nor that art therapy can help it. She probably needs a full evaluation and it sounds like your mom either doesn't want to do it or is in denial about how serious her behavior is. At any rate, you are just her sister and you can't do anything about it. The adults in your family need to step up to the plate, recognize that Sister needs help, and find out what disorder she has, rather than looking it up on the internet, which isn't accurate. She probably could use a neuropsychologist to figure her out. ODD isn't a useful diagnosis...most of us don't pay much heed to it. It just means the child is defiant, which we know, but it doesn't tell us why she's defiant and there is no real treatment for it. I think a lot more has to be looked at, but that is NOT your responsibility. You're just a kid yourself and should enjoy it. We welcome your mother here. Will she come?
Traditional parenting methods, such as standing our ground, do not change our differently wired children. They need more creative parenting plus often other interventions and sometimes medication. Your mom needs somebody who is a professional to help her. Again, I recommend starting with a neuropsychologist evaluation and going from there.
You are a very good and brave sister but you can not do an adult's job because you can not legally take your sister for help.

 

[Caribbeangirl4ev]

And by the way, she is very smart! She took a test for her grade(5th) recently and when we got the results back, the way it was explained was that she scored higher than 99% of the other students who had taken it this year! The same day, we recieved a letter from a nearby gifted middle school hoping she applies to join the program! She also gets honor roll or principles list every year, never getting a C and if she gets honor roll, she has maybe 1 B or 2 at most with the others all A's.
So how would she go about getting her a neuropsychologist exam? Im looking into it now so i can give her some info when i talk to her... I feel shes, for lack of a better term, in denial about it all most of the time. Maybe she doesnt want her to have a connection to our father like Borderline (BPD)(she already looks just like him) or something, I don't know. But i feel it would be highly beneficial to my sister and our family as a whole to know what causes her behavior.. Even today, with my sister having been in a good mood and great all day long, i can see why my mom is so hopeful. She does have her good days(first thing in the morning, nighttime, and when shes hyper like playing with friends and shes told no about something seem to be the worst)... But ill talk to her and see what she says. I really appreciate the feedback!

 

[TeDo]

Google neuropsychologist in your state. Our good one is associated with a Children's Hospital in our capital city. You could also look that up and call them to see where there is one. Just as an FYI, the "good" ones typically have a waiting list. I would be leery of any that can get you in pretty quickly. I'm glad you're wanting to help your sister and to work with your mom to do that. Please make sure you take time to be a kid yourself. This is a burden for a parent, not a minor sibling. The most you can do is provide your mom with the information. What she does with it is her decision. There's nothing more you can do. Take care of yourself around your sister. What do YOU do when your sister gets out of control?

 

[Caribbeangirl4ev]

For me, it depends. If its between her and my mom, i know better than to get into it... I let her try to calm her down as best she can and stay wherever im at at the time, whether its on the couch or in my room and just wait until its over and then go see if my mom is ok. Sometimes she is crying so i just go sit in the room with her, let her vent, and, if its been long enough and ok, give her a hug.
If its between her and i and our mom is home, i tend to just go and tell her. If shes not home, i usually try to just give in so that she calms down(how its been recently) but i used to give into the temptation. Didnt learn the lesson and control until this year.. Our mom tries to not leave us at home alone often though because of how its been in the past. If we are, its for a few hours or less after school when she can just go outside and be distracted playing with friends. I used to always give in and there would be bad consequences from that.
Sometimes shes out of control though when we're alone(not often) and i'll call our mom and try to help the tension of the situation go down.
Im definitely not perfect though. I give in sometimes like with the meaningless little things(mostly when shes home) and get really agitated by it all. Afterward, if it puts me in a bad mood, i'll listen to music and try to just get over it. Most of the time its just little things too like my sister giving drama, an attitude, and not wanting to listen. Maybe once a day or less(mostly when its time for bed or something along those lines) will be the more out of control moments. My mom does her best and we can even go a few days or, if we're really lucky, more without the out of control and then we can get the exact opposite and get it like twice or so in a day.

 

[BusynMember]

Giving into her or not giving into her won't change the fact that she is not stable. Nor will a high IQ. A private neuropsychologist can test her for neurological differences and mental health disorders. I agree that you should not have to be the second parent here and should go out and live your life and not feel you have to take care of your mother. She is choosing not to get serious help for your sister. You can't change that.
Perhaps your sister will end up with bipolar, which you say runs in your family. IQ has nothing to do with mental illness. I don't believe your sister is "bad" or just willfully misbehaving. Something is making her unable to deal with life the way most kids do, but the reason has not been yet found. I think she needs a lot more help from professionals and she isn't getting it. But hopefully you'll be in college next year and can leave the drama behind you. You deserve to be a kid. You are only a kid once.
Nothing against your mom, but why won't she get your sister totally evaluated? You don't need to answer because it isn't your problem. Just saying, mom is not doing all that she can. There will come a point when she will have to. Let time take care of it. You can't and shouldn't feel you have to.
Good luck!

 

[Blueknight]

Not to sound like a broken record, but she really does need seen by someone. Who knows what it could be, but some type of therapy or medications may be a huge improvement. I have a son who has a mixture of issues, mixture of medications, and was recently found to have Intermittent explosive disorder. Doing some research into it, it explains about them having a blowup and then feeling genuinely sad about what they do. Of course who knows what the issue is, which is why getting the evaluation would be so beneficial. Plus, what's the use of your mum crying about this, you being bothered when you should have fun and be loving life, when getting a diagnosis and proper treatment could end this (or as everyone will probably attest to, *some of this)

 

[Caribbeangirl4ev]

Just to give some sort of response about my mom, and i know that i dont have to, is that i feel that she hasnt gotten to that point yet. She will but shes just not there knowing that we need a professional viewpoint. Shes a nurse at a childrens hospital, has been for years, so i also think that maybe shes subconsciously hoping she can help it all herself and that maybe she'll grow out of it. What i do know is that she is doing her best right now and, if things continue like this, she'll get there. She'll realize it. I know she will. And my mom does what she can to have me not take that role i feel of a second parent. I chose to step in hoping i can help.
Thank you all so much for all of the responses! I will do some research and talk to her. Hopefully, after that, as mentioned by MidwestMom, time will take care of it all. I think she'll take her to get the exam, which i am very happy about. You've all truly helped us, by just responding to me, get on a path to a happier home

 

[Caribbeangirl4ev]

So I thought that I'd update y'all that things really haven't gotten any better... I just logged back on for the first time since I first sought out help. I apologize for being at all snippy/defensive last time.. Completely open this time for how to discuss this matter with my mom and what she/we should do. Right now I'm going through what has already been said and am going to right it all down. Thank y'all again so much for trying to help and give some advice. I truly do appreciate it.

 

[TerryJ2]

Welcome back, Caribbeangirl4ev. I'm so sorry that you are being forced to grow up so fast!
It does sound a bit like your little sister may be on the bipolar spectrum, plus, have an adrenal problem (Kawasaki's disease, so I assume she had her thyroid irradiated and she is on Synthroid?). She will need to tweak her thyroid medications a lot during her growing years, because her body is constantly changing.
And she may be too young for lithium, but there are other medications out there that she can use, as soon as your mom takes her for a full evaluation. Once she gets the evaluation, I'll bet that it comes back "Mood Disorder, not otherwise specified." It's a blanket diagnosis for all sorts of things.
And ODD is just a symptom, or an adjective, in my humble opinion.
People live with-mental illness every day. It's not like in the movies where they turn into zombies or serial killers. Your sister can lead a productive, happy life, once she's headed in the right direction. In the meantime, expect a lot of drama, because your sister's coping skills are thin.

Fingers crossed that your mom sees the light, soon!

 

[busywend]

Something has to change, right?

I called my difficult child 'parenting resistant'. What helped us to have a happier home was to find ways to make her feel like she has more control over her self.

 

[Caribbeangirl4ev]

Thank you. She doesn't have any medications now from when she had Kawasaki's. It was all treated when she was a baby and all that I know is that she isn't and hasn't been on any medication. She honestly does not see when she is wrong and is getting more daring about it and blatantly disrespectful. I just feel badly because my patience with my sister is pretty spent and I don't even like to be around her much anymore.... Some days it's ok, but others I just don't want to even be in the same room with her.... So I don't really help much anymore.... I try to and do sometimes, but not a lot... Like I handle it usually to a point, but sometimes I just don't even want to hear it.... I hope that that makes sense... Anyway I am trying now to plan out everything that can be done advance so that my mom truly hears me out... Sometimes she listens, but she normally just doesn't want to even hear it anymore... She's pretty spent herself.... So I am looking into the evaluation and into the books referenced before. I want to at least make things easier for my mom and try to get a better grasp of coping with it all myself, handling things better, and getting a better picture of where we are, you know? And any techniques to help handle the stress vs just freaking out and screaming or wanting to strangle her would be greatly appreciated.... Like I have tried to go to my room or walk away before(when we have been alone, which my mom tries to assure me will not happen hardly ever again) and she has almost broken my door off of the hinges(it is all cracked along them to where you have to angle and push back to close or open and is eventually going to have to be replaced or it'll fall and kill one of our kitties or something-it's pretty damaged) from hitting or kicking it and tries to do something to upset me like yelling at or messing with(sometimes hitting or just petting) my dog, taking something of mine, hitting or kicking me, throwing things at me, and just being down right hurtful... Just because she can, doesn't get her way, isn't in a great mood to begin with, or something of the sort... I don't know if I should write or start up some sort of hobby that can be therapeutic.... Just need a stress reliever and possibly a technique to handle her when she bugs out.... And we have tried telling her to calm down and take a breath, that she's in control, but she just gets sarcastic and mean in return. How else could we show her that she is in control of herself with her actually hearing us?

 

[busywend]

She has to be part of the solutions.....and not in the heat of the moment....before then. Call a family meeting in a few weeks. Use real life scenarios that happen over the next few weeks. Figure out together how each scenario could have gone differently and why and who that would benefit.

 

[TerryJ2]

I agree ... talk to your mom first, privately, and then have a family meeting with-your sister.
You sound like gem! I realize you didn't sign up for this, but you are doing something constructive.
In regard to your sister having control, see if you can let her have control of, say, one TV program each night that you all watch. (Presumably something you can all stomach.) It's one thing for her to control her own TV programs, but when you all are sitting there and she chose the program, it will give her a good feeling. At the end you can force a compliment, "It's not something I normally watch but I'm glad you chose it. It's a change for me. I like xyz character. Someday I'll watch it again." (That way she won't misconstrue your comment and think you need to watch it 500 X in a row, now! lol)
What about having her choose what's for dinner? Even if it's PB&J it's a start.
In regard to your sense of control, it is something all of us here struggle with every. Single. Day. Detachment is the name of the game. You have to pretend there's a plexiglass wall between you, or that she is on a YouTube video and it will be over soon. The hard part is not detaching too much ... because she'll be able to tell, and know that she's left out.
I like the "What could we have done better" Idea that Busywend suggested.

 

[ksm]

my patience with my sister is pretty spent and I don't even like to be around her much anymore.... Some days it's ok, but others I just don't want to even be in the same room with her.... So I don't really help much anymore.... I try to and do sometimes, but not a lot... Like I handle it usually to a point, but sometimes I just don't even want to hear it.... I hope that that makes sense... QUOTE]

I suffer from this same condition. Sometimes, when I know I have to spend a lot of time with difficult child... it is like I have to give myself a peptalk just to be brave enough to do it. I feel myself pulling away. Tired of the confrontations. Tired of the lies. Tired of the attitude. Tired of her having no empathy for anyone else. It is a tough situation to be in. I am an adult and have problems with it too. Her younger sis also distances herself. At times, they do have some fun things together - but it usually ends badly, no matter how well it starts out. Years of older sis demanding little sis does things her way. Wish I knew advice to give - but just keep trying is all I can offer. And put up a force field so that you don't get "injured" emotionally. KSM