6 year old son keeps getting kicked out of school

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by kim75062, Sep 1, 2016.

  1. kim75062

    kim75062 Active Member

    i never thought about language. My oldest has taken Spanish, french and now Chinese. Shes not fluent in any of them but can understand most of whats spoken to her. She thinks it funny to teach him phrases that I don't understand. He was running around saying "drink up" in Chinese for like a week and I couldn't figure it out. She said she was preparing him for his college years lol oh and he will NOT tell me what hes saying even though he knows because his sister tells him.
  2. Sister's Keeper

    Sister's Keeper Active Member

    Piano is excellent for fine motor skills it is one of the things that was recommended, actually. I would imagine that it would be the same for the other instruments, too, bit you are more likely to find a teacher to teach him piano at that age.

    Also, you may want to try those touch-typing games that you can find on the internet.

    Strangely, too, video games are really good for fine motor skills. I am not a person who is anti video game as long as they are age appropriate. My kids have all sorts of electronics.
  3. kim75062

    kim75062 Active Member

    Just wanted to put in a update. I had the meeting on Thursday and had the school change their "crisis plan" they still are saying its not an IEP and that was not their intention blah blah blah. The lack of common sense still baffles me but it is what it is I suppose. He had a good 1/2 day weds. an OK day Thursday and good day Friday. Friday was the first day he made it all day without me having to go up there. I see a lot of improvement from him and hopefully the school will follow.
  4. HMBgal

    HMBgal Active Member

    Such great news! But be on guard about the school not doing what they're supposed to do in offering your child a free, appropriate public education that honors his least restrictive environment.
  5. kim75062

    kim75062 Active Member

    Hes had 2 good days so far this week. Today will be a challenge I'm sure. His teacher wont be there so there will be a sub, he was told about it but we will see how it goes. Also the para that's been with him was only there temporary because she works at another school. She told me yesterday that she didn't even know if she would be there today or not. The teacher said they had someone else lined up for 2 days a week. Now you guys only have read a small part of what goes on daily with him and I'm sure you can tell he needs a para with him at all times. He doesn't have an IEP yet because they are still testing etc. so theres nothing in writing saying he must have one. I think the school lost the little bit of common sense that they found last week. I just shock my head and told the teacher she better wear her running shoes those other 3 days a week.
  6. nancymann

    nancymann New Member

    Consult a good doctor.
  7. BloodiedButUnbowed

    BloodiedButUnbowed Active Member

    From a special education teacher's perspective here, the situation is that your son cannot handle doing things that most 6 year olds can handle doing. Not to say your son "should have to" do anything you don't want him to do. But the reality is, most children your son's age can handle school. For whatever reason, your son cannot.

    You can say 'forget it' and homeschool him until, or if, he reaches the point of being able to accept the routine and rules of school (and frankly, society. How will he hold a job if he cannot handle routines and expectations?).

    You can fight the school for an appropriate IEP. If the process has just started, between the 60 calendar days allotted for testing him, the meeting to determine if he qualifies for services, and the need to see if the services work assuming he is eligible, there goes this school year.

    Or, there is always the possibility that the school will get it right and this is the beginning of a new day for him. I sure hope it's the latter.

    I would agree that it would be a great idea to have your son evaluated by at minimum, an educational psychologist. They are easier to find than neuropsychologists. If you have provided written consent to the school district for an evaluation for possible special needs, and they have accepted your request and provided you with a date for the initial conference to discuss your son's test results (ask for it if they haven't given it to you), then by law you are entitled to have your son evaluated privately at public expense IF you do not agree with their testing results.

    I am a teacher and not a psychologist. Based on my knowledge and experience and from the behaviors you describe in your son, I would guess the autism spectrum possibly in tandem with a behavioral issue, but often behaviors like your son's are part of the spectrum.

    Good luck.
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
    • List
  8. kim75062

    kim75062 Active Member

    Well this week has gone down hill. They still haven't called me to come get him but hes still not participating in anything or doing his work in class. I'm glad there dealing with it without me but at the same time I keep asking myself why am I sending him there if hes not learning anything. Hopefully tomorrow goes better.
  9. kim75062

    kim75062 Active Member

    I agree he should be able to handle school and I want him to be able to have that experience. But I still don't really know what the reason is that he can't.

    Yes this is the beginning of the IEP process and I'm sure it will be a long process. The school now seems to be trying now and I am hoping it will pay off.

    He has appointments for 2 different psychologists but there way out. One is November and the other is February of next year. One is a behavioral child psy center that specializes in autism and the other is a neuro psy.

    Don't discount your self for not being a psychologist. Being a teacher for special needs kids means you have way more experience seeing and dealing with problem behaviors than any doctor would. They may spend a few hours a day with one child at a time but you spend all day with a entire group of challenging children.
  10. kim75062

    kim75062 Active Member

    Today didn't last long. He ran into the hallway and refused to get off the floor. They called me up there and he still refused. I swear he's a different kid when he's in that building. I had to pick him up off the floor after 10 mins of him refusing to stand up or even answer me. He was trying to pull away from me telling me don't touch him etc. when I got to the car he was balling and saying how sorry he was. I sent him to his room until schools over. I told him if he can't do anything at school then he can stay in his room and not do anything until 3pm. He's still crying in his room begging me to take him back to school. I wish I understood what was going on in his head.
  11. ForeverSpring

    ForeverSpring Well-Known Member

    Get him tested by a neuropsychologist. Red flags everywhere for autism (they don't tolerate crowds and different places and need sameness and also need intervetions.) Did he have and early speech delays or other issues, even if they resolved.
    I would not punish him. He isn't misbehaving. Punishment will make him feel badly about himself, but won't change how he is unable to deal with school one bit.

    I don't believe that his doctors have diagnosed him right. Certainly, he is no better. Time to move o to a neuropsycologist in my opinion. He needs a more intensive evaluation and better suggestions on how to help him. Trust me, if you don't do it now, youll regret it later. This is not him being bad. It is not just ADHD. I dont know how an IEP can fix his real fear of school. You need more. I hope you go for it.

    I disagree that he needs to go to regular school. Some kids CAN'T. Teachers, Special Education or not, do not really know how to handle this degree of school fear and it is unlikely he is learning or making friends there. Just because most kids can learn in a structured classroom doesn't mean every child can. And what about you? You matter too. Can you handle the stress? Do you have other kids?

    Good luck! Please...do this for your son...and yourself. I had to do it. Wasn't easy but the results were amazing. Was worth it.
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2016
  12. kim75062

    kim75062 Active Member

    No speech problems really. He didn't say much until a little over a year old then was talking in full 5+ word sentences within a week.

    He has appointments set up but there not until November and February of next year. I keep calling hoping for a cancelation spot but no luck yet.
  13. ForeverSpring

    ForeverSpring Well-Known Member

    That's ok and normal. They are good professionals which is why they are booked so far out. We had to wait six months. It was worth it. If youi can get them in in a week, chances are they are not particularly gifted professionals and will just give you more of the same.

    Meanwhile, maybe chill and use your mom gut, to decide what is best for son regarding school.

  14. slsh

    slsh member since 1999

    Hi Kim,

    I haven't read all 5 pages of responses but wanted to suggest, very strongly, that you get a Special Education advocate involved, like yesterday. Couple of reasons: You requested (verbally, granted) a sped evaluation last spring. At that point, the district became aware that they may be dealing with a student with special needs, regardless of when they start the evaluation. You again requested IEP evaluation from school board in June (do you have documentation?). And then principal postponed it again at the beginning of school year with his/her "let's wait and see" attitude. You have had to pick son up from school how many times in the last nine months? My point is, the school has had ample communication from both you *and* your son that they may very well have a special needs student and they are *still* futzing around with the darn evaluation. There are timelines involved here - ideally should date back to your first request, but at the very least to your request to school board. They are, I believe, teetering on not getting evaluation done in timely manner.

    In the future - any requests for evaluations/accommodations/etc should be made in WRITING, sent CERTIFIED MAIL. It's the best way to hold the district accountable. Also, any conversations you have should be followed up with certified letter: Dear Mr. Principal - On August 30, you advised that you didn't want to evaluate Fred's need for sped services because you wanted to wait and see. Thank you for your time. Short and sweet, but creates paper trail.

    Secondly - since district has been aware of the possibility they are dealing with a student with special needs since *at least* the beginning of this school year (realistically dates back to your first IEP evaluation request), every time they remove him from classroom, whether it's to office or having you pick him up early, that counts towards a max allowed 10-day "suspension" for sped students - basically, if "suspension" is due to disability (which, well, obviously it is since his current "disability" is an inability to function in classroom), they can only suspend for 10 days per school year. After those 10 days are up, it counts as a "change in placement" even if he's still in same classroom. A bunch of protections kick in, including mandatory review of IEP, supports, and placement. Again, just because they've postponed and delayed evaluation horrifically, they still are aware of the fact that he's potentially a sped student, and he gets these protections. I would count up time out of classroom - I'm thinking if he hasn't been out of classroom a total of 10 days yet, he's darn close.

    Bottom line - districts must provide "free and appropriate education" (FAPE) in "least restrictive environment" (LRE). They are NOT educating your son. Period. They are certainly not providing FAPE in LRE (mantra of sped students and federal sped law).

    With all the foot dragging going on, I'm guessing you might be dealing with a district that either isn't fully aware of their responsibilities under IDEA (federal sped law) or they figure they'll only serve kids who have parents that insist.

    I would also recommend that you become well acquainted with sped law, both state and federal. Federal law mandates bare minimum, but some states have some nice perks in their laws. Again, look for a sped advocacy group in your area. Usually they are parent run (and those are, in my humble opinion, the very best). You should be able to take a crash course on sped law. If not - study up yourself. It's really not too awful to learn, and the time you put into it now will be well worth it should your son require sped services on a longer term basis. Check out wrightslaw.com - great advocacy site.

    Again, the very bottom line here is that your son is not receiving any type of an education at this point. Constantly calling a parent to pick up a kid from school is *not* a reasonable solution in any way, shape, or form - ever. At least, it's not a solution for the kid - it's a *great* solution for the district because then they don't have to deal with it.

    It's crucial your son get the supports he needs - what is going on right now is setting up a really bad precedent for the rest of his school career.

    A "diagnosis" would be helpful but is not mandatory for sped services. Outside evaluations are good (especially if district balks at providing services), but again not mandatory at this point. The district has ample evidence that your son needs sped services (not being able to function in a classroom is.... well, I mean, really - common sense). What absolutely is mandatory is that the district must provide FAPE in LRE. They aren't, and I'm not getting the sense they're terribly concerned about it either.

    Just my opinion, hon. Hang in there, get your rhino skin (aka school-administrator-proof armor ;) ) on, and remember that your son has the right to be educated, not warehoused in your home or some office for the duration of the school year.

    by the way - not sure I would institute consequences at home for school behavior. He's obviously not getting the supports he needs, and it doesn't really sound like anyone has a good feel for why he needs supports or what those supports may need to be (no judgement there - some of us worked for years to try to figure out our challenging kids). You may be giving him a consequence for something he really cannot help. Kinda like punishing him for not doing his Spanish homework, except he's taking French - know what I mean? Also - I very strongly believe that what happens at school should stay at school (another reason I abhor the "call mommy" method of dealing with challenging kids at school). If you start giving consequences at home for school stuff, you may end up with a kid whose entire life is nothing but a consequence (been there done that - it was not good for my son or for us - something I would most definitely do differently in hindsight).
  15. kim75062

    kim75062 Active Member

    I looked into some advocates here locally and no luck yet. At this point I'm not even sure what I'm fighting them for. They ignored my requests last year and so far this year seem to be taking their time with these assessments. It's been a few days over a month since school started here so if there not out of time yet they will be very soon. We can't go back in time and change their responses so that all irrelevant at this point.

    For now he has a para with him 1:1 all day. He has a box of fidget toys I sent in to the classroom to give him something else to do to take his mind off of worrying and wanting to run out of the room.

    If he feels like running away all he has to do is tell the para and she will take him to a safe place where he can run until he feels better.

    He has an empty classroom he can use to do his work if he doesn't want to be in the class with the other children.

    The para will write his anwsers if he says he can't/won't because writing is a struggle for him.

    He gets lots of praise for making good decisions.

    I just don't understand how to help him because none of these things are working consistantly. He had a good week last week with minimal behavior issues.(for him anyway). And this week is like being back at square one. He's running out of the classrooms, crawling on the floor, hiding under desks, refusing to do any work and just plain shutting down.
  16. Malika

    Malika Well-Known Member

    Of course one thing to consider is that he is getting more attention, and in a sense more attention from you, by not coping at school. I am not saying that is why he is doing it - how could I know that? - but just that it is something for you to consider and toss out if not applicable...
  17. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    For what it is worth, fed law does NOT take a summer break, so those summer days when school postponed their evaluations still count legally.

    Sue (slsh) knows her stuff. She is amazing with this, and for the best outcome you should follow her advice. The school is NOT doing your son any good right now, esp with that meeting they didn't include you in. They also are setting him up to fail totally. Something is clearly wrong, and he doesn't have the skills he needs to do what they are asking of him. Whether other kids have those skills or not is irrelevant. He cannot get them when he is so overwhelmed, and certainly not when he is scared. Learning when you are scared is hard, and until he can get help, interventions, whatever, all school is doing is making things worse.
  18. kim75062

    kim75062 Active Member

    I emailed them yesterday asking when his testing would be complete. No answer yet.

    I understand why they think he's doing some of these things just because he can. From an outside perspective It looks like he's purposefully running off to avoid doing his work etc. but they know how smart he is and that the work they give him is so easy that he has no problems when they can get him to do it.

    The school psy is the one everyone's been waiting on to finish her testing and report. I do not know her and I do t think I've ever seen her at the school. But she was in the meeting that I wasn't invited to and some of the worst interventions where her idea. So I don't have high hopes for report.
  19. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    PLEASE use the time you have to learn Special Education law. Also contact your state board of education to find an advocate. Knowledge truly IS power during this time. Insist on outside evaluations if you disagree with their assessments. Please know that school psychologists mean well, but often are not very experienced. They are low paid and sometimes that isn't the best. Be prepared to have to FIGHT for your child to get what he needs. You are not fighting for what he wants, but rather for what he needs to survive and thrive - and every child deserves that.

    Some big piece of your son's puzzle is missing. I truly wonder what is going on in that classroom that you are not allowed to see. I can remember how very different my own teachers were when parents were present and when they were not. I had a much harder time coping when the teacher was the only adult in the room, largely because I did not have the social skills to handle the hidden bullying and I was a HUGE target, esp in the 1-3rd grades. I don't know if it is bullying, sensory issues, autism to some degree (autism is a spectrum, so it may be very subtle), or something else, but something is not being seen. Sadly, it will be up to you to figure out what it is, because generally schools are not that great at figuring out the more subtle things. Especially if they start out with the idea that the child just doesn't want to behave. That taints their entire process, from my experience.
  20. slsh

    slsh member since 1999

    Hi Kim - your son kept me up half the night. ;) Seriously. It just sets my hair on fire when I hear about districts behaving this way. It makes you wonder who is the adult and who is the child. Sigh...

    I've gone back and read all of your posts now. I should've done that first - sorry, was being lazy. I have some ideas and suggestions, and also links to information that may be helpful. Take what you can use and ditch the rest. I'm not an expert - none of us are - but I had 2 kids in sped (oldest was classified as "Other Health Impaired" - he has cerebral palsy, a vision impairment, is nonverbal, and has epilepsy, is basically a quadriplegic, and my next child was classified as "emotional disturbance") and I was a decent advocate for them thru middle school. It all went to Hades in a hand basket when they hit high school, but... that's a story for another day. ;)

    These are just my opinions, and you get what you pay for. ;) Again, I hope it will be helpful for you, but if it isn't, please just ignore me. Also, I have a very dark sense of humor - I will try to mute it, but after almost 30 years dealing with "professionals" who are supposed to be a member of my kid's team, it's kind of automatic. I've met a handful of folks in districts over the years that were absolutely on top of things and doing what they were supposed to. I've met a bigger handful of people that just made me pause and wonder why on earth they ended up in education when there are so many other careers that were more suited for their temperament - brain surgeon, rocket scientist, politician, dictator of small country.....

    First and foremost, you have seriously got it together. Parents are always the experts on their kids (no matter how unprepared and inept our kids can make us feel sometimes, LOL), and I think you have really good instincts on deescalation tactics and supports your son needs. I mean, *really* good. I think you've also got an excellent feel for dealing with the bureaucracy you're dealing with right now. I actually laughed out loud when I got to your post about how you made them change their "crisis plan." That whole thing was wrong from the get go, and I'm impressed that you called them on it and made them change it. It took me a couple of years to learn to really stand up to them. You are a fantastic advocate for your kid, and you're just starting!!!

    So - here's a link to IDEA. I like this link because all the sections are spelled out. Most states just mirror the IDEA regs in their own sped law, but like I said, some states add perks so it's worth checking out (in your spare time ;) ).

    In general, fighting districts over placement and supports and contents of IEPs can be sticky. They have funding for sped attorneys and, well.... it can get nasty real quick. On the other hand, if they don't follow the law's *procedure*, they lose before they even get started. So it's important, especially as you're beginning this process, to keep track of dates, timelines, etc. When you had the initial meeting to get the evaluation process started, you should have received a copy of procedural safeguards. Memorize that thing, lol. If you didn't get one, that's strike one for the district. My elementary district also included a list of advocacy resources, free or low cost. I think that is required, but I cannot find that section of law, but ... yes, I am 99% certain that resources are/should be part of that notification.

    Pay special attention to prior written notice. IDEA is *very* specific about what must be contained in PWN and when PWN must be given. It's been my experience that districts don't follow this rule. If they don't, it's a procedural violation and the district has zero defense.

    One of the things that kept me up last night was my innate distrust of administrators, lol, and I was worried that you might not even be waiting for a real IEP evaluation. I was extremely relieved to hear you signed consent forms. That's great. So now for the protections. "If a request is made for an evaluation of a child during the time period in which the child is subjected to disciplinary measures under §300.530, the evaluation must be conducted in an expedited manner." Your child is receiving disciplinary measures, the district is aware he may be a child with a disability since they're doing an evaluation, they *by law* must expedite it.

    Please peruse the discipline section. Specifically, a sped child who is removed from his current placement for more than 10 days per school year (and I'd count up every hour he's been out of the classroom - based on your posts, he's darn close to those 10 days) still *must* receive educational services AND where appropriate should receive a functional behavioral assessment (FBA) and behavior intervention plan (BIP) and modifications "that are designed to address the behavior violation so that it does not recur." And modifications are *not* punishments. Ugh.

    An FBA was something that crossed my mind last night for your son. District should definitely be getting this done. Involves psychologist observing your son in classroom on multiple days, for an hour or two at a time, different times of days, in hopes of identifying triggers and potential strategies for managing his behavior. The BIP (which is *not* what they wrote without your input) is a *positive* method for managing behaviors. Identify trigger, offer positive strategies for intervening, and method for evaluating success of those strategies. BIP should *never* be based on negative consequences.

    I also think he should be getting an assistive tech evaluation. Your suggestion that he be allowed to type was so spot on. I mean, really. What is the goal here? Education or compliance? The person who said that wouldn't "be fair" should be reminded that life isn't fair. (My eyes rolled so hard on that one, I thought they would fall out of my head!!) Yes, he needs to become more comfortable with writing, but get Occupational Therapist (OT) services in there to identify any specific problem and work with him, and in the meantime allow your son to participate in classwork by typing. Problem solved. Common sense.

    Check to see if your district/state has jumped on the Positive Behavioral Support bandwagon. Even if they haven't, this program is endorsed by the Office of Special Education Programs (OSEP - good resource, federal agency responsible for helping states implement IDEA, an ally for our kids and ourselves).

    I think it's good that you are seeking outside evaluations, but please be aware that while the district is required to "consider" any outside evaluations you have done, they are not required to follow any recommendations or even accept the findings of those evaluations. You also may want to think about how those evaluations are shared with the district. Most will ask for a blanket release of authorization from you so they can get results and even speak with the physician/professional/whatever. I would recommend caution (but I'm horribly cynical). It didn't take me long to become a gatekeeper when it came to sharing information. Everything had to come through me first. I got tired of nasty surprises and manipulations.

    Independent educational evaluation at public expense. If you disagree with an evaluation by the district, you can request an IEE at public expense. Section 300.502. It's important to know about the options covered here.

    I found a great handout from NC on seclusion, time outs, and restraints. While it's specific to NC, it gives a good overview. Laws vary by state. In IL, they were required to provide me with written notification every time my ED son was restrained (I got a lot of those). I think it also may vary by state as to requirements re: training of person doing restraint. Bottom line, seclusion and restraint may *never* be used as a punishment, and if they are using those strategies, criteria and method should be spelled out in IEP/BIP.

    A half day is "against school policy." My eye. When they make statements about "policy", put on your best "goodness gracious" face and ask to see said policy. In writing. I also would've been hard pressed not to ask why they were violating their own policy by removing your son from classroom for a half day or more, but I have been known to get snarky when I'm pushed. ;)

    I understand you not wanting to "tattle tale" to the district every time the school staff blunders. It sounds like you have at least one ally (Dir of campus operations) in district admin. Nurture that. Also realize that the *district* is responsible to comply with IDEA, with all those irritating timelines and pesky procedural rules. Technically the district could face serious state/federal consequences if they've got a rogue school that is not in compliance. Now, I've yet to see noncompliance seriously enforced but... even having the state/feds sniff around for compliance issues will send districts into a tizzy. You're not tattle taling. You're advocating.

    I also seriously understand your wondering what are you fighting for. I've already touched on a ton of info here, you've got a kid who is miserable, you've got adults who obviously don't have a clue of how to educate your kid, and I'm sure you're close to having a Pavlovian response when the phone rings at 8:00 in the morning. Only you can know if the battle is worth it to you and your son. Personally, while I did homeschool my ED kid for about 6 weeks during middle school, I really just don't have the temperament to do that. I also believe even more strongly in hindsight that the socialization in a school setting is just so incredibly important for our challenging kids. And as much as a battle as it may be, schools *do* have access to better resources for our kids than we do (unless we win the lottery, which, alas, never happened here ;) ). You have to weigh it for you, your son, and your family. There's no shame in homeschooling if that is the best for your kid (though I see that as a win for the district because they avoided having to do their job, but I'm a bit salty at this point). It is what is *best* for your kid and family that matters. And I did throw in the towel when my kids hit high school. I just couldn't deal with evil school district attorneys and retaliation against my kids and fighting Every Single Day with whatever "professional" decided to punch my button. I made sure my kids were safe (as best I could), happy (as much as they could be), and... I gave up the fight. I don't regret it for a second because I was losing what little was left of my sanity and, realistically, even if I had prevailed, it wouldn't have changed the outcome. Follow your gut, always.

    OMG, my computer just crashed and I thought I lost this book!!! So, I guess that's the sign I should wrap it up, LOL.

    My ED kid had similar behaviors as your son (and what is the deal with crawling under desks???? Is that just a 6-year-old thing??? Honest, my kid was doing that throughout first grade, though he added growling animal noises just for fun). I actually was a lousy advocate for him because I couldn't wrap my head around the fact that I had 2 kids who needed sped services, and they needed services that were completely different. I mean, could Life actually be doing that to me???? But once I got over myself and got with the program, while I can't say things necessarily got better for my ED kid, we at least did have a plan and having a plan, even if it doesn't work, is a start.

    My ED kid had a rough go throughout school - defiant, violent, noncompliant, and at times just pretty much impossible to contain much less educate. He ended up dropping out of high school. He's 25 now. A licensed EMT. Living on his own, has had some long-term relationships, has friends, and is delightful. I'm so incredibly proud of him. And this was always the goal - getting him to be a law-abiding, self-sufficient, independent adult. Makes all the tears and battles and feelings of hopelessness and incompetence on my part totally worth it.

    Hang in there. I hope some of this stuff will be helpful for you.

    Gentle hugs.
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2016