A chilling conversation with-Matt

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by Steely, May 19, 2011.

  1. Steely

    Steely Active Member

    Suddenly Matt is the unhappiest I have seen him in years. Full of self loathing, hatred towards himself and others, convinced the entire world is against him, suicidal, homicidal, raging - you name it.

    I sat there today and listened to the ping pong balls bouncing in his brain and was astounded at how truly messed up his head was. I mean, I see him often, but he usually has this happy go lucky attitude, or totally laid back attitude, or a modestly angry, surly attitude - but he doesn't really reveal to me what is going on inside his head. Today was a chilling look into his reality and the depth of his self destruction and illogical reasoning. It scared and shocked me.

    He was saying things like, his whole life is cursed, he will never be successful, the universe hates him (which I have heard before), and then he goes deeper into how much hate he has towards all the people in his life that have 'F'd him over. His hate was so palpable, his whole body was shaking. Then he starts talking about how he wants to kill those people, or all the people that "have it so good". In tangible detail he tells me his fantasy. I am mouth wide open, speechless. I said, so you really would do that? And he backs down and says, no, I just really really want to, but you know I never would do that.

    Then he starts back up with how the whole world hates him. All his friends have left him, his Dad, his Aunt (my sister who died), his grandfather (who dad who just died) - anyone he cared about, he lost. He started to cry and said and now it will be you or Nan (his grandmother) next. I just know it, because that is how my whole life works.

    Then he goes back to being angry with a daze on his face. I said what are you thinking about? He said, oh, I am just having flashbacks of all the people who wronged me. Rob (his former step father), friends, teachers.

    I told him flat out that his life would not be any better than his thinking. That he had to make the positive steps in his life to affect change. He has been in therapy and on medications his whole life, so he flat out refuses to see a counselor, or seek medical help. In fact they would probably have to Tazer him to get him into a hospital again, seriously. And truthfully even if he was somehow admitted again, doctors have done all they can with him. That route is no longer viable, in my opinion.

    I talked to him about things like positive thinking, or finding peace within himself, but he simply scoffed and then said that was stupid. I said, so you are miserable, and feeling sorry for yourself, but you don't want to use measures to change that. He said, no, I just am who I am. This is who I am Mom, this is it, he yelled. There was absolutely no talking sense into him - and I guess I shouldn't have been trying.

    He came to AZ last summer after an episode like this in Dallas. He was staying with friends, and they were totally freaked out by his talk, and kicked him out. He was using pot at the time, and I know he is now. Today he was sober though, and it is like reality just kicked him in the rear. He told me that he cannot deal with reality, and if this is how he has to live his life he will chose to die.

    I finally left, because I had had enough, and he called me sobbing. I said Matt, I cannot fix this for you! You have to fix you! I can't make this better. It was like this lightning bolt went off, and he said OMG, you really can't make this better can you. And he started to cry again, and hung up.

    I am left with so many emotions, they are countless. I am trying really hard to detach, and yet at the same time when he is talking about death - it is hard. When he is sobbing telling me how much he hates himself, it is very hard for me not to feel that emotion. I have felt that way one too many times.

    I really am at a loss. In fact I am not sure why I am even posting, since there is nothing I can do.

    He is so much more even keel and in control when he is smoking weed - and they give that to people with PTSD - I sometimes wonder if he just needs medical marijuana. God knows we have tried every other chemical/medication with him. Then the more sane part of me thinks that if he continues to run and hide with weed, than he will amount to nothing, zero, he will just be a vegetable. Then the worried part comes back and says but without it will he really kill himself of someone else?

    I have said so much here - which is rare. I keep the Matt stuff kinda bottled up because I worry about being judged.

    I am just in limbo. I am wondering if I should call him back and make sure he is OK. Yet I realize that will only continue to enable him. But what if he has really tried to kill himself?

    This all has to stop. I feel like it is all going to blow up soon, if somehow a break doesn't happen in some form or another. And no, a psychiatric hold is not an option - we have been there done that so many times - with zero results except a bunch of bad memories, the wrong medications, and no solutions.

  2. mechelle

    mechelle New Member

    lord, he sounds a lot like my daughter, but she has developed over many years, and i know exactly how you feel, you feel like your in the worse horror movie, and you can't get out.
  3. AnnieO

    AnnieO Shooting from the Hip


    Oh, Steely... I don't have any wisdom, but I'm sending you all the good vibes I can muster up!!!
  4. HaoZi

    HaoZi Guest

    They're all going off the deep end this week. *hugs* and I hope tomorrow is better.
  5. shellyd67

    shellyd67 Active Member

    Steely, I too wish I had some words ...

    When a child is resistant to everything is it pure torture.

    I am sorry sweetie.

    Gentle ((( HUGS ))) Shelly
  6. Steely

    Steely Active Member

    God - I DO feel like I am in a horror movie - and my kid is going to be the next serial killer. He chills me to the core with some of the things he says.
  7. dashcat

    dashcat Member

    Sending mega hugs and wish I could do more.
    Hang on tight.
  8. Mattsmom277

    Mattsmom277 Active Member

    He's so hurting inside, I'm so sorry he won't go to some sort of therapy. His negative "stinkin thinkin" is holding him back from so very much in his life, aside from the reaction others like you will have to his dark thoughts. How incredibly sad. I will send healing vibes his way for his spirit.

    I think you're on the right path when thinking you know you can't fix him. A horrible realization but it is good when people realize they can't. That doesn't mean there aren't small things you can do to try to help, even without a magic cure or "fix". Acknowleding his negative thoughts by allowing him to express himself. But then when the opportunity presents itself, redirecting to better thinking so that he starts having some sort of dialogue about good things. Maybe talking more often about funny things you remember when he was growing up. Or "remember the day you did XYZ at school in X grade? Gosh you were so proud of that, it was adorable". Or memories of any good family get togethers, or special holidays. Sort of become "That Mom". You know, the moms who always look back at the good stuff and filter out the bad and always want to reminesce? Plant a seed of good memories in him and hope that it takes root a bit and starts to at least balance his negative thinking and hopefully one day the good thoughts can outweigh the bad? Also, when he does something to be proud of, however small, subtle ways of hamming that up to make him feel good without realizing your reasons behind it. So he can start finding good in himself.

    These aren't fixes, but we don't have fixes for our mentally ill loved ones do we? Oh that we did! I'd love to fix my mother. I know I can't. I do hope you can find some people too. We all want so much for our kids and for them as they become adults. I know it hurts your heart. (((hugs)))
  9. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful


    I know that had to be horrible to hear. But you were right in telling him the only one that can fix him is himself. Seems that maybe, just maybe, that got through.

    It svcks because if he can't learn to change his attitude/outlook on the world and his life.......it will never change simply because he'll always only focus on the negative, which will continue to prevent him from seeing the positives.

    Sounds like he has some borderline traits going on too. (the fear everyone is going to abandon him thing)

    I'll keep him in my prayers that for him this is just the darkness before the dawn.
  10. KTMom91

    KTMom91 Well-Known Member

    Hugs and prayers going out for you and Matt, Steely.
  11. Steely

    Steely Active Member

    I guess i am terrified that he really is a sociopath. The things he says, where is this going to lead? Or maybe my fear is feeding his frenzy.I have always felt guilty about that, that the more fearful i am the more he taps into it. I don't know. It is so confusing.
    He just called me to list the characterics of a sociopath, and how he fits all the criteria. What am I supposed to say to that? I said, ummmmm. Ok. But there are other lots of other symptoms that you have that fit other criteria?
  12. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry, Steely. Is there any way that he might be admitted to the p-hospital? I know he backs down and says that he won't do it when pressed, but he has a plan. It hurts so much, but when the people we love talk about harming themselves or harming others, I think we owe it to them to get them the help they need. Think of how frightened and sad he must feel to say such awful things. Do you think that there's any way that he could be admitted? I know you've gone that route before and it seems unfair to have to do it again, but it may be so.
  13. HaoZi

    HaoZi Guest

    Refer back to the DSM criteria I posted on another thread. Other mental illnesses have to be ruled out as a requirement.
  14. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Steely when Nichole would tell me how frightened she was that she was really bipolar, I had her do research. I helped her find good sights that not only gave her info but gave her stories of bipolar people who were staying stable and living fairly normal lives. Doing her own research and educating herself (I also encouraged questions to psychiatrist) helped relieve many of her fears. I did the same with the borderline diagnosis. It gave her hope, which she had lost at that time, that she could do it too.

    I would totally include the point HaoZi made too, that other mental illnesses have to be ruled out first.

    Maybe with some education.....and on his own.....he might be willing to try treatment again in time.

  15. everywoman

    everywoman Active Member

    Steely---no words of wisdom here. I, too, worry about my son--not because he is violent, but because he has that same self-hatred and self-defeating attitude. He is angry at the world that he felt did him wrong. I finally had to distance myself from him in Dec. It was hard, but it did us both a world of good. I am no longer his sounding board. He is not allowed to call me to vent anymore. It has helped our relationship in many ways.
  16. donna723

    donna723 Well-Known Member

    Steely, I am so sorry that you are going through such a rough time! It sounds like he is very afraid that you will leave him too and that he will be alone.

    I'm no expert but I wouldn't think that someone who really had serious sociopath tendencies would be sitting around worrying that they might be a sociopath, if that makes any sense. In 24 years with the Dept. of Correction, I saw quite a few of these guys. And, without exception, none of them thought there was anything wrong with them! That never even occurs to them. They all thought they were completely normal ... it was everybody else that they had a problem with because they didn't see things as they did.
  17. Nomad

    Nomad Guest

    It certainly is possible that you should seriously consider contacting your son's former physician and/or your local police department to find out if you can have him involuntarily committed. If you use a police officer to do this, ask if they have any that are specially trained.

    You might gently suggest to him (your son) that if he is seriously thinking about suiicide, that he get to the hospital. You might offer to take him yourself.

    If he says he is considering suicide, but shows no interest in the above....then I would make a call to have him committed. In our state, it is called a Baker Act (I believe it is referred in the same way in other places). It requires a 72 hour hold for anyone who is suspected to be a danger to himself or others: http://www.ehow.com/how_4431397_baker-act-someone.html

    If you haven't done so already, I would google your local chapter of NAMI and see if someone can speak to you on the phone ASAP for some advice.

    It seems sociopaths aren't really into "guilt," but many are into guilt tripping others.

    Nevertheless, if you are not sure what his intentions are here, better safe than sorry. If he is threatening suicide, if these are legitmate threats, than he needs protections/safety.

    If they are false threats, than he should understand that there are consequences to this type of behavior.

    As best as you can, try to limit your emotions in all of this.

    I'm so sorry.
  18. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    I am so very sorry. What he said scares me for you and for him. Esp for you because I have seen people in that state of mind suddenly decide that it is better to kill the one they are closest to rather than to wait for life/the world/whatever to kill them. That way they have control over when/if that person leaves them. It is totally irrational but it happens. I could see your Matt figuring that you will probably die soon because everyone leaves him so if he goes ahead and kills you it will just get it over with and he won't have to wait an wonder if today is the day that you leave him. Esp because when he got violent it was toward you back when he lived at home.

    I don't think that getting him to a hospital would be easy and you certainly shouldn't try under ANY circumstances. A really GOOD psychiatric hospital MIGHT be able to MAYBE help him, but I have serious doubts. After all the things that went on when he was in the RTCs and other programs, he will fight tooth and nail to keep out of a facility. If at some point you think it is unavoidable, you will need the police to transport him. I do think that if you ever again have to have him involuntarily committed it will mean he either never speaks to you again or it will put a huge bull's eye target on your back. Then he will likely try to hurt you at some point because he will be focused on why it is all your fault. This isn't going to help either of you. It might be better for him to be in a hospital instead of a prison if he hurts someone, but I doubt that it will be possible to get him to agree to go so there are almost no hospitals that would take him for more than a 72 hr hold, which is rather useless.

    I am so sorry that you have so few options. It isn't where you live that is limiting them, it is all the things the past places did in the name of therapy that really were abuse. I cannot blame him for thinking that the mental health care system isn't something he wants anything to do with. I just wish there was a way to get really good care for him and get him to accept and use the help.

    You are going to have to make some tough decisions on this problem. If he hurts someone he will spend a LONG time in jail/prison and will get NO help and a lot of hurt. A psychiatric hospital would have to be locked and involuntary and they would have to seriously sedate him for a long time just to keep him there. this would mean that they would NOT be helpful because you cannot really treat someone who is so sedated. I just am worried that he will do something to you or someone else and then would wind up in prison when he really belongs in a psychiatric hospital.

    As for being a sociopath, nope. Not your Matt. He loves you (even when he hates you) and he loves his dogs. Sociopaths do not love anyone. They have NO feelings. not happiness, sadness, anger, etc.... They do not kill because they are angry or scared, they kill because it helps them achieve some goal. Period. That goal may be to have fun, or may be to hide something or get someone to leave them alone or to take something from someone. But they are NOT worried about things and they are totally sure that they are right and that they have the right to do whatever they want. They do NOT read the criteria for being a sociopath because they do not care if they are or not. Your son just has too many feelings to be a sociopath. NOT that he isn't capable of hurting people, we all are, but he will be plagued by guilt for the rest of his life if he does. WHich is a good thing, in my opinion, because it may be the thing that stops him from hurting others.

    It is going to be a long hard road for Matt and there is little that you can do about it. Right now his anger is probably directly related to his grief for your father, or at least that is why he is expressing these thoughts and feelings. If he can justs give it some time, he will be able to work through the grief. Medical marijuana is not likely to be the answer, though it is probably tempting to him. It will just suppress his feelings so that he doesn't care while he is high. In the end he will have to cope with all of this at some time or another.

    ((((((((((hugs)))))))))) You are both in my thoughts and prayers.
  19. Star*

    Star* call 911........call 911

    Hi Steely,

    Wow this is an awful lot to take in; and it certainly never seems like we ever get a chance to deal with our own grief. Then here we are trying to figure out what is the best thing to do for our kids who are hurting so badly. I think what the others have pointed out to you is pretty obvious. He's scared. Mortality makes us all think about our own lives and just how alone we all really can be in this world. Not a very pleasant thought if we have a bunch of family and friends around us at any given time. Even more grim for someone like your Matt and my Dude who literally can count on one hand now how many family they have to be there for them by the time they are 30. This used to worry Dude when he was little to the point that he couldn't sleep. It's actually why I gave up smoking. He worried himself sick.

    Then I see a Mom writing about doctors and psychiatric hospitals, and how they have failed her son. I'm literally rolling my eyes here because I wish I had a nickle for every time I felt that way about it. However Witz and Nomad have said almost verbatim what I would have said if I had gotten here first. YOU, ME, anyone else that comes to this board and starts talking about suicide? I think our standard answer has to be - Get them to the ER - PERIOD. Why? Two reasons - 1.) You can't sit back and say "Well if I take him then he's going to be angry. My thought is - better off angry or dead. and 2.) If he isn't suicidal and he's just saying I'm suicidal? Then it's time that you called the bluff and explained to him and everyone else you know that the words I'm suicidal, I'm going to kill myself aren't taken lightly. They are VERY SERIOUS words and you will USE WHATEVER MEANS it takes to get him the help he needs when those words are used. THEY ARE NOT.....just words. If he'd like to rephrase and use other words? Fine - but those particular words need to be addressed SERIOUSLY and the ONLY WAY the words "I am SUICIDAL" get addressed in my world? Is with a trip via ambulance, 911 medical emergency or voluntary commital.

    I think ANY doctor worth a nickle that would talk to him in an ER situation about what he's discussed with you (and by the way - the way you handled the part about him wanting to kill others was really very well handled) and he would tell them - LOOK - I need to smoke pot to calm down? WOULD ALLOW HIM - just wouldn't want to know about it. And what if.......this trip - he would meet the ONE guy - that would put him on a path to wellness? The one person that would look at Matt and go - You know what partner? I have an idea - Im not like those other looser doctors I want to try something. WHAT IF? What if Matt is SO despondent he's ready to try with this ONE GUY?

    Sitting in his apartment? Gets him what? I'm guessing nowhere, nothing. And it isn't what he needs. He's a smart young man, he's getting that YOU arent' going to fix him.....YOU can't help him? Sure you can - you can support him, you can be there for him - to talk to, and laugh with and joke with, share with. You can also say - "I think the best thing right now since you are out of control and can't help yourself is........" and stop being so adverse to the things that are there because of suicidal talk (ER, psychiatric hospital and doctors) -

    He can't do this alone. I don't think there should be any bad feelings in getting him the people that he needs to help himself when he's this far gone, and can't help himself.

    Hugs & Love
    Last edited: May 21, 2011
  20. Star*

    Star* call 911........call 911

    As far as Matt calling you and reading a checklist or sociopathic behaviors? If his concerns are so deep that he is doing research and he feels he is a natural born killer? Then I would definitely urge him to get checked in to a hospital and get looked at, so he can get some help before he harms someone and ends up spending the rest of his life in prison and ruining a families life.

    On the other hand, it may be that he finally finds out once and for all that he is NOT a sociopath or a psychopath and puts those thoughts to rest and moves on getting some quality anger management behavior therapy and gets on with his life and realizes he just has anger issues an is in a place in his life where he KNOWS he is not psycho, KNOWS he needs to work on his anger issues and accepts the help. It could be the start of something great for Matt.