H
HaoZi
Guest
Any update Steely? Thinking about you.
A chilling conversation with-Matt
- Thread starter Steely
- Start date
N
Nomad
Guest
I too am wondering how things are going and if these threats are still on the table....GREATLY encourage you to call the police or a physician ASAP!
It is interesting that your son shows some improvement when smoking marijuana. Don't you think this is a sign that the right medication + the right therapy could very well help him?
I do NOT think you should buy into his complaints that doctors/therapy are a waste of time. He is depressed, angry, frustrated and perhaps other things are going on .... on top of THAT! Not someone who is going to make a good analysis of the situation.
Marijuana is illegal and it is a proven fact that it can cause damage to the frontal lobe....it often and usual does cause people to lose their motivation. It is NOT an option.
And if he is legitmately thinking of suicide and/or hurting others, he needs to be in a hospital!
I do hope that you will seriously consider calling the police and/or a physician for assistance ASAP!
Do not let his ranting and ravings influence you. As best as you can, shake out your emotions from all of this. It only weakens your ability to make the best decisions.
This is a VERY difficult, challenging and frustrating situation.
by the way, our difficult child did something similar to this once and we got her to the ER. It wasn't easy...but we got her there. They kept her for 72 hours. She now hesitates to make such statements.
Please read my tag line below.
This too is part of accountability. If he is seriously depressed, he should VOLUNTARILY take himself to the hospital. There is no shame. It is an unfortunate medical condition and he should seek medication to help him. He should NOT NOT NOT NOT burden people excessively by ranting and raging. It is only understandable to a point. He has been sick for a long time. He should be at a point that he "gets it." I'm not saying he should be happy about it. I'm not saying that it should be easy or that it wouldn't be a struggle. BUT, he should be a responsible human being and be able to say to himself, "Hxck, #@$! I'm badly depressed, I need to get to the hospital and try some medications to see if I can get better and he should be grateful to have a parent who "has his back."
Side note: AT this point "having his back," might be in a limited way. Staying in touch briefly with doctors. Making sure there are no obvious abuses going on. Making casual inquiries. Do NOT go overboard! He is not a child!
AND if he is faking it....he should understand that the logical consequences to such a thing is being taken to the hospital.
Some of the literature on socipathology suggests that in some cases as part of the problem perhaps some did not receive logical consquences in their youth and were allowed to engage in inappropriate behaviors without feeling the negative results of their inappropriate actions. These people (often males) were protected to a large extent by their mothers. The theory is that they guilt trip their mothers into protecting them. The book I am reading now (will try to post the title later) says that not all socipaths are the typical ones we read about. Some are simply irresponsible, tend to burden others and when called out....will guilt trip and try to get everyone to feel sorry for them. Some of this is speculation. However, it is speculation from those with great knowledge and expertise.
I wouldn't overly worry about this though. Is he actually worried that he is a sociopath? Or is this a game? If he is REALLY worried, then this lessons the chance that he is one!
I WOULD get some advice from a local expert, and if the threats are still on the table .... seriously consider calling the police, etc. And, again....get your emotions out of this. You can still do this and be largely detached.
Please don't let this escalate.
Please send an update.
It is interesting that your son shows some improvement when smoking marijuana. Don't you think this is a sign that the right medication + the right therapy could very well help him?
I do NOT think you should buy into his complaints that doctors/therapy are a waste of time. He is depressed, angry, frustrated and perhaps other things are going on .... on top of THAT! Not someone who is going to make a good analysis of the situation.
Marijuana is illegal and it is a proven fact that it can cause damage to the frontal lobe....it often and usual does cause people to lose their motivation. It is NOT an option.
And if he is legitmately thinking of suicide and/or hurting others, he needs to be in a hospital!
I do hope that you will seriously consider calling the police and/or a physician for assistance ASAP!
Do not let his ranting and ravings influence you. As best as you can, shake out your emotions from all of this. It only weakens your ability to make the best decisions.
This is a VERY difficult, challenging and frustrating situation.
by the way, our difficult child did something similar to this once and we got her to the ER. It wasn't easy...but we got her there. They kept her for 72 hours. She now hesitates to make such statements.
Please read my tag line below.
This too is part of accountability. If he is seriously depressed, he should VOLUNTARILY take himself to the hospital. There is no shame. It is an unfortunate medical condition and he should seek medication to help him. He should NOT NOT NOT NOT burden people excessively by ranting and raging. It is only understandable to a point. He has been sick for a long time. He should be at a point that he "gets it." I'm not saying he should be happy about it. I'm not saying that it should be easy or that it wouldn't be a struggle. BUT, he should be a responsible human being and be able to say to himself, "Hxck, #@$! I'm badly depressed, I need to get to the hospital and try some medications to see if I can get better and he should be grateful to have a parent who "has his back."
Side note: AT this point "having his back," might be in a limited way. Staying in touch briefly with doctors. Making sure there are no obvious abuses going on. Making casual inquiries. Do NOT go overboard! He is not a child!
AND if he is faking it....he should understand that the logical consequences to such a thing is being taken to the hospital.
Some of the literature on socipathology suggests that in some cases as part of the problem perhaps some did not receive logical consquences in their youth and were allowed to engage in inappropriate behaviors without feeling the negative results of their inappropriate actions. These people (often males) were protected to a large extent by their mothers. The theory is that they guilt trip their mothers into protecting them. The book I am reading now (will try to post the title later) says that not all socipaths are the typical ones we read about. Some are simply irresponsible, tend to burden others and when called out....will guilt trip and try to get everyone to feel sorry for them. Some of this is speculation. However, it is speculation from those with great knowledge and expertise.
I wouldn't overly worry about this though. Is he actually worried that he is a sociopath? Or is this a game? If he is REALLY worried, then this lessons the chance that he is one!
I WOULD get some advice from a local expert, and if the threats are still on the table .... seriously consider calling the police, etc. And, again....get your emotions out of this. You can still do this and be largely detached.
Please don't let this escalate.
Please send an update.
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Nomad
Guest
I agree with you, don't feed into this frenzy. Do NOT feel guilty. Be dispassionate. As best as you can, look at the facts that he presents. Be kind and when he is respectful and appropriate, offer some of your listening time. If he is not respecful, either GREATLY limit or don't speak with him at all. You are not his therapist. You should not have to nor should you listen for long periods of time. Saying "ummmm" sounds about right. You might add to that these are things that would be very appropriate to discuss with a therapist if he is concerned. Let him take appropriate actions. Guide him to being appropriate at all times. And if he refuses to be appropriate AND you have concerns for his safety (or the safety of others), then by all means contact the authorities. You've been through too much. It is very unfortunate that he is sick, but honestly, unfortunate or not, HE has to get better control...it CAN be done.
Consider: Detach as much as possible...stepping in as appropriate for medical intervention.
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Star*
call 911........call 911
I wanted to clarify something as well that I posted. When I said a doctor would allow Matt to continue smoking Pot - and ignore it? I didn't mean condone it. I meant that for the time being Matt has bigger issues to be dealt with at present and if he's using marijuana as a crutch a doctor may not hyperfocus on pot to gain Matts trust.
Sorry for the confusion. Nomad of course is correct about the damage that drugs does. While it may help calm him? It is an illegal drug.
Sorry for the confusion. Nomad of course is correct about the damage that drugs does. While it may help calm him? It is an illegal drug.
Steely
Active Member
Well, first of all this is not a game he is playing, nor is he manipulating me with these conversations. He is truly distressed about his state of being, and worried about why he is having these thoughts. He doesn't know what to do, and I am the only person in his life he has to talk to. After I told him I couldn't talk anymore, because I was done - he ended up calling an old. old friend who really helped talk him down. Which was good - but it was obvious the words were not to twist the knife in me to do something.
He ended up becoming manic over the stress he was feeling and stayed up for 72 hours. I spoke with him again yesterday after no sleep, and he was calm, but he still has the same thoughts that are disturbing him. However he is not threatening anyone, me, or to kill himself. I am sorry if I made it sound that way. He is saying he sometimes feels like doing this - and he doesn't know what to do. He says the feelings are intense, and it scares him - but there was not a moment in the conversation where he said "I am going to kill myself now" -
I really cannot go into all the many, many details as to why Matt will never be able to get help from a professional again, (That is a book - it is just too extensive) but he has been damaged beyond ever trusting a mental health professional. He will go to get his medications checked, but that is it. Which is better than nothing. And that is where I am going to start, having him get in with the Dr.
The bottom line of why he is feeling intense rage and suicidal/homicidal thoughts is because he has no self worth, at all, zero. He has never once succeeded in anything - not one thing. He has either literally failed, been kicked out, or quit, anything he has ever been a part of. He hates himself, and he hates others that seemingly have it so well. Until that path of destruction can be stopped, until he can start to feel good about something, I am not sure this problem will change. And that is disturbing to me.
He is in a viscous circle, everything he tries now, he is so afraid of failing at he quits, ie school. Now he has to find a job, and he flat out told me that if he fails at the job than it will impact his life in catastrophic proportions - his exact words. In addition to this he greatly struggles with agoraphobia, which just compounds this equation.
He sees all of this/him/his world with clear reality. I was shocked at his insight. But he also has a million walls, walls that some things or people will never ever penetrate. psychiatric professionals are one of those walls.
Nomad your thoughts on sociopath and the mother I have heard before. It kinda made my stomach turn that you brought that up though, as perhaps I might have something to do with this? Or am I being too sensitive. I have had so many people blame me for Matt, I am just ultra touchy. Or maybe I did contribute, because the kid was so out of control when he was little I could only give consequences for A infractions, but B and C infractions often got dismissed. And I was a single mom, and yes, probably in the attempt to be his advocate at school, or others, I am sure it seemed as if I was actually rescuing him. I don't know.
The other thing that he also told me was that he felt unable to feel his emotions - he could only feel anger or love - but not sadness. He said he knew he was said over Pop dying, but he could only feel rage, and not even rage at Pop, but just rage that something else happened to him. He said he had been having these feeling since Pop died, and that they were the same ones he had when H died. I so wish he would talk to a therapist - but he refuses - always has - even in Residential Treatment Center (RTC) - he would just sit there.
Anyway - I am still at a great loss - and so sad and scared for him. I do not know how this is going to change if he won't help himself - and shoving him into a 72 hold will only make it worse - believe me. Now if he was actively running around threatening me or people than of course I would call the police, but that is not how this went down. I know he needs help - but in order for him to effectively get the help - I think it has to be a progression not the police arriving and putting him in a hold. He just goes into fight or flight mode, and never receives or processes the help.
And by the way - the reason sociopath is stuck in his head is because a punky, non-educated staff worker at one of his Residential Treatment Center (RTC)'s told him he was. That started the fear about 2 years ago.
He ended up becoming manic over the stress he was feeling and stayed up for 72 hours. I spoke with him again yesterday after no sleep, and he was calm, but he still has the same thoughts that are disturbing him. However he is not threatening anyone, me, or to kill himself. I am sorry if I made it sound that way. He is saying he sometimes feels like doing this - and he doesn't know what to do. He says the feelings are intense, and it scares him - but there was not a moment in the conversation where he said "I am going to kill myself now" -
I really cannot go into all the many, many details as to why Matt will never be able to get help from a professional again, (That is a book - it is just too extensive) but he has been damaged beyond ever trusting a mental health professional. He will go to get his medications checked, but that is it. Which is better than nothing. And that is where I am going to start, having him get in with the Dr.
The bottom line of why he is feeling intense rage and suicidal/homicidal thoughts is because he has no self worth, at all, zero. He has never once succeeded in anything - not one thing. He has either literally failed, been kicked out, or quit, anything he has ever been a part of. He hates himself, and he hates others that seemingly have it so well. Until that path of destruction can be stopped, until he can start to feel good about something, I am not sure this problem will change. And that is disturbing to me.
He is in a viscous circle, everything he tries now, he is so afraid of failing at he quits, ie school. Now he has to find a job, and he flat out told me that if he fails at the job than it will impact his life in catastrophic proportions - his exact words. In addition to this he greatly struggles with agoraphobia, which just compounds this equation.
He sees all of this/him/his world with clear reality. I was shocked at his insight. But he also has a million walls, walls that some things or people will never ever penetrate. psychiatric professionals are one of those walls.
Nomad your thoughts on sociopath and the mother I have heard before. It kinda made my stomach turn that you brought that up though, as perhaps I might have something to do with this? Or am I being too sensitive. I have had so many people blame me for Matt, I am just ultra touchy. Or maybe I did contribute, because the kid was so out of control when he was little I could only give consequences for A infractions, but B and C infractions often got dismissed. And I was a single mom, and yes, probably in the attempt to be his advocate at school, or others, I am sure it seemed as if I was actually rescuing him. I don't know.
The other thing that he also told me was that he felt unable to feel his emotions - he could only feel anger or love - but not sadness. He said he knew he was said over Pop dying, but he could only feel rage, and not even rage at Pop, but just rage that something else happened to him. He said he had been having these feeling since Pop died, and that they were the same ones he had when H died. I so wish he would talk to a therapist - but he refuses - always has - even in Residential Treatment Center (RTC) - he would just sit there.
Anyway - I am still at a great loss - and so sad and scared for him. I do not know how this is going to change if he won't help himself - and shoving him into a 72 hold will only make it worse - believe me. Now if he was actively running around threatening me or people than of course I would call the police, but that is not how this went down. I know he needs help - but in order for him to effectively get the help - I think it has to be a progression not the police arriving and putting him in a hold. He just goes into fight or flight mode, and never receives or processes the help.
And by the way - the reason sociopath is stuck in his head is because a punky, non-educated staff worker at one of his Residential Treatment Center (RTC)'s told him he was. That started the fear about 2 years ago.
N
Nomad
Guest
Steely, I empathize with what you are feeling. I suspect many moms here have thought of these things. I dunno...maybe you are a little sensitive. But, when this crazy difficult stuff is going on....it is very painful...it is understandable.
It is so very hard to say what is what. Chances are you had little to NOTHING to do with his behaviors. And remember, he has not been diagnosis'd with a personality disorder.
Probably most of us have had moments when we endulged (for lack of a better word) our sons. IT is extra extra hard with children who are mentally ill. It is downright confusing and frightening. Throw in being a single mother and the situation and the difficulties are of monumental proporations.
I do believe many of the "kids" here are developmental delayed to a certain extent. I am not talking about anything extreme. But, they do seem somewhat immature. This could be for any number of reasons. The positive side to this is that it provides more opportunity for growth. So, he is not "done" yet. You can possible role model for him still...just as if at times he was still 16 or so. And of course, based on your concerns about a possible personality disorder, even more reason for you to insist that he do his part to accept his diagnosis of bipolar illness, get treatment for it, take his medication, try new medication as appropriate and move forward in life. If he doesn't want to go to the hospital due to a bad experience, well then why not try a new doctor? It is not appropriate, no matter what tragic experience occurred in the past (I'm sorry to hear of this), to think that someone with bipolar illness will not be seeing a professional again. This is a serious and real disease. And as soon as he feels better, maybe he can look for a part time job????
I think it might be a good idea to consider not getting so bogged down into the details of his affliction. It doesn't matter all that much what is going on in terms of why he isn't doing this or that. You might limit your involvement literally AND EMOTIONALLY. It is NOT healthy for you to be involved in so much detail.
Be a broken record, I think...encouraging him to get medical treatment/therapy (after all, he has a medical condition), allow him to suffer the consequences for inappropriate behaviors (no sociopathic stuff there) and let him watch you move forward with your life (be a model). A wise therapist got me to this point. I realized that with-o me, it was possible my difficult child would falter....even die. And things momentarily got worse...got scarey. But you know what, one day they got better. She learned how to use the bus system and she can get anywhere she wants. She is very independent. Things aren't as I would want....and the improvement is tiny. However, I'm not sure that if I were fully involved it would be all THAT much better. What I am sure of is that I am ONE THOUSAND...NO ONE MILLION TIMES BETTER. And, at least she is a little better. I pray in time.....she will improve some more. She is respectful to me and my husband, for the most part takes her medications and although I wish for more, I accept that life isn't fair.
IF you are truly worried that you may MAY may have done something to cause him to have narcassistic or socipathic tendencies, then now is a perfect opportunity to go into detachment mode and not tolerate inappropriate behaviors and insist that he get himself to a doctor. He has the right to get a second and even a third opinion.
But, if one has an illness (Bipolar diagnosis) one needs treatment. One does not carry on and burden his family. You might bring this to his attention and consider doing it with a loving, but firm tone. It is what it is. It is unfortunate, but it is what it is. If he had diabetes, you would NOT give him a choice about going to the doctor to get his insulin, etc. It sounds harsh, but it is likely the only way. (Exception being if he threatens suicide...then by all means...intervene by getting him some direct help).
As a side note...if you are truly worried that he really does have socipathic tendencies, why call the staff worker "punky?" Your son is an adult. If he is acting so inappropriate that this diagnosis up for discussion...maybe he needs to hear it. And if he would like to change things up, he has the CHOICE to do so. It is his choice. No one makes someone behave in such a manner.
by the way, it is certainly possible that part of the reason your son has little to no self worth is because he is NOT taking charge of his illness. If nothing else, he can succeed in making it his mission to get on a good medication, find a good therapist and to curtail his outburts. He can be a success at THAT.
Detachment isn't so much for him, it is for you. But in the end, it might benefit him too.
Sometimes I think this is the lesson of all of this.
It is so very hard to say what is what. Chances are you had little to NOTHING to do with his behaviors. And remember, he has not been diagnosis'd with a personality disorder.
Probably most of us have had moments when we endulged (for lack of a better word) our sons. IT is extra extra hard with children who are mentally ill. It is downright confusing and frightening. Throw in being a single mother and the situation and the difficulties are of monumental proporations.
I do believe many of the "kids" here are developmental delayed to a certain extent. I am not talking about anything extreme. But, they do seem somewhat immature. This could be for any number of reasons. The positive side to this is that it provides more opportunity for growth. So, he is not "done" yet. You can possible role model for him still...just as if at times he was still 16 or so. And of course, based on your concerns about a possible personality disorder, even more reason for you to insist that he do his part to accept his diagnosis of bipolar illness, get treatment for it, take his medication, try new medication as appropriate and move forward in life. If he doesn't want to go to the hospital due to a bad experience, well then why not try a new doctor? It is not appropriate, no matter what tragic experience occurred in the past (I'm sorry to hear of this), to think that someone with bipolar illness will not be seeing a professional again. This is a serious and real disease. And as soon as he feels better, maybe he can look for a part time job????
I think it might be a good idea to consider not getting so bogged down into the details of his affliction. It doesn't matter all that much what is going on in terms of why he isn't doing this or that. You might limit your involvement literally AND EMOTIONALLY. It is NOT healthy for you to be involved in so much detail.
Be a broken record, I think...encouraging him to get medical treatment/therapy (after all, he has a medical condition), allow him to suffer the consequences for inappropriate behaviors (no sociopathic stuff there) and let him watch you move forward with your life (be a model). A wise therapist got me to this point. I realized that with-o me, it was possible my difficult child would falter....even die. And things momentarily got worse...got scarey. But you know what, one day they got better. She learned how to use the bus system and she can get anywhere she wants. She is very independent. Things aren't as I would want....and the improvement is tiny. However, I'm not sure that if I were fully involved it would be all THAT much better. What I am sure of is that I am ONE THOUSAND...NO ONE MILLION TIMES BETTER. And, at least she is a little better. I pray in time.....she will improve some more. She is respectful to me and my husband, for the most part takes her medications and although I wish for more, I accept that life isn't fair.
IF you are truly worried that you may MAY may have done something to cause him to have narcassistic or socipathic tendencies, then now is a perfect opportunity to go into detachment mode and not tolerate inappropriate behaviors and insist that he get himself to a doctor. He has the right to get a second and even a third opinion.
But, if one has an illness (Bipolar diagnosis) one needs treatment. One does not carry on and burden his family. You might bring this to his attention and consider doing it with a loving, but firm tone. It is what it is. It is unfortunate, but it is what it is. If he had diabetes, you would NOT give him a choice about going to the doctor to get his insulin, etc. It sounds harsh, but it is likely the only way. (Exception being if he threatens suicide...then by all means...intervene by getting him some direct help).
As a side note...if you are truly worried that he really does have socipathic tendencies, why call the staff worker "punky?" Your son is an adult. If he is acting so inappropriate that this diagnosis up for discussion...maybe he needs to hear it. And if he would like to change things up, he has the CHOICE to do so. It is his choice. No one makes someone behave in such a manner.
by the way, it is certainly possible that part of the reason your son has little to no self worth is because he is NOT taking charge of his illness. If nothing else, he can succeed in making it his mission to get on a good medication, find a good therapist and to curtail his outburts. He can be a success at THAT.
Detachment isn't so much for him, it is for you. But in the end, it might benefit him too.
Sometimes I think this is the lesson of all of this.
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Steely
Active Member
I have a lot to say about this post but I am not in the frame of mind to do it right now. But I wanted to comment on this one thing you said Nomad.
I called him a punk because NO ONE, unless you have a Doctorate, is allowed to give someone else an offhand diagnosis. NO ONE. It is an unprofessional and unethical.
I had this happen to me in an Residential Treatment Center (RTC) when I was 16 and it haunted me until I finally got a real therapist at 35 who convinced me that I indeed was NOT those things that person had labeled me. That equals 20 years of serious constant worry that I might become this label.
I think your points are great - but things cannot be as black and white as you suggest without time.
I had a very interesting day with Matt, that I wanted to post - but as you mentioned I might be too caught up in the details of his life - so I will refrain. Regardless to say, I know he is not a sociopath, I just worry, and I know he does as well.
Again it is not fair for someone without credentials, but is pretending to have them, to throw that label at someone. In fact it makes me furious. It is like saying, hey man, you look like you have cancer cause you have XYZ - good luck with that! And than walking off.
N
Nomad
Guest
For the most part, I would agree...this person was out of line.
You seem to be wondering about that diagnosis at least a little bit yourself at times.
Not sure why if this person was not degreed, it was taken that seriously by your son, etc.
So glad you are avoiding getting caught up in the details of his illness.
Hoping for the best.
You seem to be wondering about that diagnosis at least a little bit yourself at times.
Not sure why if this person was not degreed, it was taken that seriously by your son, etc.
So glad you are avoiding getting caught up in the details of his illness.
Hoping for the best.
Allan-Matlem
Active Member
Sorry about the situation. I think maybe we should try to move the discussion more towards the future - what type of life do you want , picture a different life for oneself self and then ask how can IO get there . It is hard to move forward when the past holds one back. In the conversation he used a ' show stopper ' Mom - this is who I am , it is what it is - meaning the situation is hopeless and therefore there is nothing to talk about , so lets drop the conversation . Our answer - this is what you have been , from now on you can either go up and move forward or go down even more . people are dynamic , they never stay in the same place. I believe in you , I believe that you can work with people who can support you in making a different life for you [
Allan
Allan
Malika
Well-Known Member
I think it is very hard for someone who is revolving around (for no "fault" of their own) in very negative thoughts to come out of that spiral. For there to be some positive change, I believe there has to be some positive input, some energy that comes from outside your son and which can inspire him. Which makes the question, of course, where could this positive energy come from? Is there any group of people, any one individual, who could help give your son some self-confidence and a brighter vision of himself and the world? Any kind of "outward bound" course he could sign up to, involving being in the outdoors, facing challenges, taking him out of his negative, revolving thoughts?
We are highly social creatures who are also very susceptible to influence and inspiration. The extent to which we truly do things "on our own" is pretty limited, I would say. Your son needs help and vision to get him out of where he is now.
We are highly social creatures who are also very susceptible to influence and inspiration. The extent to which we truly do things "on our own" is pretty limited, I would say. Your son needs help and vision to get him out of where he is now.
Have you tried group therapy with people of his own age that have the same diagnosis? Sometimes they can relate better that way. And if they here that some of them are getting better it may give him hope that he can too. Some times it is hard to feel like someone (a doctor for instance) can comprehend what you are feeling if they have never themselves felt like the patient has felt.
