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<blockquote data-quote="Copabanana" data-source="post: 710368" data-attributes="member: 18958"><p>Well. You had a full day and learned a whole lot. You have a good friend. Thank g-d for that.</p><p></p><p>You know I have to apologize. For some of my posting to you I imagined your daughter was your daughter-in law. I fear I was too harsh.</p><p></p><p>Your daughter in a sense reminds me of myself at her age. I was not a young mother. No. But I was immature and I was impressionable. I did not know what I wanted. I had little self-esteem. I was vulnerable and lacked confidence. I still am a follower to an extent. I did not know my value. And I was very, very intimidated by my mother. I could not be around her without feeling overshadowed, overwhelmed and small. I felt I was not good enough. I felt she could do most everything better than me. While I was a very pretty woman, I felt I was ugly in her shadow. You get the drill.</p><p></p><p>I am reminded of something my mother told me in her last year alive. She said: <em>xxx you have so much confidence.</em></p><p></p><p>When she entered rehab for the first time she saw me around people outside of the family. Fifty years later she saw a different woman than the child I had been. She also told me something she had never before said. There had been the old story where a 3rd grade teacher, Mr. Wilson had told her...<em>XXX is so smart she could be anything in the whole world, even president.</em> My mother loved that story because it reflected well on her. But 50 years later in the last year of her life she told me the real story: He had said:<em> If xxx had self-confidence she could be anything in the world when she grows up. </em>She had guarded the truth for 50 years. Because she felt it was her fault. She did not say this. But I knew.</p><p></p><p>I am reminded of a mental health clinic/program that used to be in San Francisco. At the general hospital there. For infants and mothers who had trouble bonding. At-risk babies were identified who typically had rejecting young mothers. The therapists would work with the mothers to help them bond with their infants. Because infants who do not have mothers who bond with them, do not thrive.</p><p></p><p>Your daughter must be jealous of her 3 year old's attachment to you. It is a no-win situation if you look at yourself as competitors. Because by your attachment right now with your grandson, you are losing your daughter, and your daughter feels like she is losing you. Who really loses? The kids.</p><p></p><p>But it is a win-win situation if you find a way to see your power to help your daughter bond with her own children, and in so doing nourish your own bond with her, your mother-child bond.</p><p></p><p>You are so capable. So loving. So responsible.</p><p></p><p>At the same time you seem angry at her. I get it. Of course I do. But that is because we are in more or less the same age cohort, generation, life phase, and situation--frustrated because our kids are not stepping up. But I think there is more. For both of us.</p><p></p><p>Do I ever understand how hard this is to put into action. If I said to you the following, you would hate me: One way to begin to heal this is to stop appearing to her that you are a rival with her for the 3 year old's affection. You would dislike me even more if I said: if it feels to her that you are critical of her and the way she lives, this will push her away. I even dislike myself putting down these words. Because I believe you are the better parent times one thousand. And she is living badly. I hate that for her and I hate it for you even more.</p><p></p><p>But the thing is, these are the lives we are living. This is why we are here posting to each other, strangers, because we love these kids and cannot stand how they are living. We are trapped in our love for them. And we hate being trapped.</p><p></p><p>I am forever critical of my son. I am beside myself at what he says. What he does and does not do. But I love him. And I am afraid for him. And I would do anything in the world to help him. And he rejects my help unless it is on his terms. Just like your daughter.</p><p></p><p>But what feels like a trap is really an opportunity if looked at another way: look at what there is to gain. Is there a way you could become her coach? Her loving helper? Her guide? Can you find a way to be on her side? If you are on her side, you are on your grandchildren's side. And you are on your own side.</p><p></p><p>You are such a wonderful woman. I know you are. I know you can do this. I really, really do.</p><p></p><p>Can you and I find that place in our hearts of pure love for our children? And try to come from that place, instead of from our fear and our hurt? </p><p></p><p>It is very, very hard for me. I am the most loving and compassionate of women. I have a very, very hard time staying in that place, with my own child. Because I am afraid.</p><p>So here you have phrased the dilemma. Our dilemma. Because I am in the same place with my own child.</p><p></p><p>In my own case I think I have a lot of guilt which has been passed through the generations to me. My mother in turn felt a lot of guilt about her relationship with me and my sister. I know my mother too felt guilt in relation to her own mother. And her own mother, (my grandmother) tremendous guilt and loss with respect to her mother.</p><p></p><p>I am wondering right now how we do this alone, without help. I am wondering if you would consider therapy?</p><p></p><p>As far as self-esteem and self-respect, I had zero. I think that is not uncommon in this society, for women. I earned my own self-respect and self-esteem but still I struggle with self-care. It is a battle. It is so much harder for your child, now, because she has dug herself deeper instead of digging herself out. But still, doable.</p><p></p><p>Is there something she would like to do, a secret goal or desire--like going to school, learning a trade, some kind of hobby? Is there something you could help her with? That she would be bowled over--that you were willing to do for her...help her with...with no strings attached, that does not involve the children?</p><p></p><p>I am getting your anger at her, I think. You cannot bear how she is doing this to herself. Like me, you cannot believe she is doing this TO YOU. Not just the kids. To you this must feel like it is snowballing out of control. You must on some level feel it is your fault, like my own mother felt with my sister. </p><p></p><p>My mother was enraged. Just enraged. But I believe under the rage and pain, there was guilt. <u>Guilt she should not have accepted. It was not my mother's fault. But how my sister milked it.</u></p><p></p><p>I believe these things can be turned around. I know they can.</p><p></p><p>I think you have already started turning this around. I think you began this process today. You have asked yourself powerful questions. The answers do not exist yet because you have not put them into practice. But you will.</p><p></p><p>There are hugs. There is: <em>I miss you</em>. There is: <em>I am sorry</em>. There is: <em>let's try again</em>. There is: <em>What can I do to help?</em> There is: <em>can we spend time together without the kids</em>? <em>What would you like to do? </em>There is: <em>would you like to go on a little trip? </em>Or<em>: I made a window box for you.</em> Do you fish? Do you camp? Do you like the zoo? What would be fun for the two of you. You are so blessed, for one, to have loving friends. Maybe they will help.</p><p></p><p>You must be so worried about her. I am only seeing this now.</p><p></p><p>Today my son and I had our typical tense exchange. Hostile. And then he came into the house with his arms out and said, "<em>Mom. Give me a hug</em>."</p><p></p><p>Is everything all better? No. But I remembered that love does not have conditions. On some level you feel like an abandoned lover. And so does she. Each of you is longing for the other. And nobody can say it. Say it.</p><p></p><p>I hope you are not mad at me.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Copabanana, post: 710368, member: 18958"] Well. You had a full day and learned a whole lot. You have a good friend. Thank g-d for that. You know I have to apologize. For some of my posting to you I imagined your daughter was your daughter-in law. I fear I was too harsh. Your daughter in a sense reminds me of myself at her age. I was not a young mother. No. But I was immature and I was impressionable. I did not know what I wanted. I had little self-esteem. I was vulnerable and lacked confidence. I still am a follower to an extent. I did not know my value. And I was very, very intimidated by my mother. I could not be around her without feeling overshadowed, overwhelmed and small. I felt I was not good enough. I felt she could do most everything better than me. While I was a very pretty woman, I felt I was ugly in her shadow. You get the drill. I am reminded of something my mother told me in her last year alive. She said: [I]xxx you have so much confidence.[/I] When she entered rehab for the first time she saw me around people outside of the family. Fifty years later she saw a different woman than the child I had been. She also told me something she had never before said. There had been the old story where a 3rd grade teacher, Mr. Wilson had told her...[I]XXX is so smart she could be anything in the whole world, even president.[/I] My mother loved that story because it reflected well on her. But 50 years later in the last year of her life she told me the real story: He had said:[I] If xxx had self-confidence she could be anything in the world when she grows up. [/I]She had guarded the truth for 50 years. Because she felt it was her fault. She did not say this. But I knew. I am reminded of a mental health clinic/program that used to be in San Francisco. At the general hospital there. For infants and mothers who had trouble bonding. At-risk babies were identified who typically had rejecting young mothers. The therapists would work with the mothers to help them bond with their infants. Because infants who do not have mothers who bond with them, do not thrive. Your daughter must be jealous of her 3 year old's attachment to you. It is a no-win situation if you look at yourself as competitors. Because by your attachment right now with your grandson, you are losing your daughter, and your daughter feels like she is losing you. Who really loses? The kids. But it is a win-win situation if you find a way to see your power to help your daughter bond with her own children, and in so doing nourish your own bond with her, your mother-child bond. You are so capable. So loving. So responsible. At the same time you seem angry at her. I get it. Of course I do. But that is because we are in more or less the same age cohort, generation, life phase, and situation--frustrated because our kids are not stepping up. But I think there is more. For both of us. Do I ever understand how hard this is to put into action. If I said to you the following, you would hate me: One way to begin to heal this is to stop appearing to her that you are a rival with her for the 3 year old's affection. You would dislike me even more if I said: if it feels to her that you are critical of her and the way she lives, this will push her away. I even dislike myself putting down these words. Because I believe you are the better parent times one thousand. And she is living badly. I hate that for her and I hate it for you even more. But the thing is, these are the lives we are living. This is why we are here posting to each other, strangers, because we love these kids and cannot stand how they are living. We are trapped in our love for them. And we hate being trapped. I am forever critical of my son. I am beside myself at what he says. What he does and does not do. But I love him. And I am afraid for him. And I would do anything in the world to help him. And he rejects my help unless it is on his terms. Just like your daughter. But what feels like a trap is really an opportunity if looked at another way: look at what there is to gain. Is there a way you could become her coach? Her loving helper? Her guide? Can you find a way to be on her side? If you are on her side, you are on your grandchildren's side. And you are on your own side. You are such a wonderful woman. I know you are. I know you can do this. I really, really do. Can you and I find that place in our hearts of pure love for our children? And try to come from that place, instead of from our fear and our hurt? It is very, very hard for me. I am the most loving and compassionate of women. I have a very, very hard time staying in that place, with my own child. Because I am afraid. So here you have phrased the dilemma. Our dilemma. Because I am in the same place with my own child. In my own case I think I have a lot of guilt which has been passed through the generations to me. My mother in turn felt a lot of guilt about her relationship with me and my sister. I know my mother too felt guilt in relation to her own mother. And her own mother, (my grandmother) tremendous guilt and loss with respect to her mother. I am wondering right now how we do this alone, without help. I am wondering if you would consider therapy? As far as self-esteem and self-respect, I had zero. I think that is not uncommon in this society, for women. I earned my own self-respect and self-esteem but still I struggle with self-care. It is a battle. It is so much harder for your child, now, because she has dug herself deeper instead of digging herself out. But still, doable. Is there something she would like to do, a secret goal or desire--like going to school, learning a trade, some kind of hobby? Is there something you could help her with? That she would be bowled over--that you were willing to do for her...help her with...with no strings attached, that does not involve the children? I am getting your anger at her, I think. You cannot bear how she is doing this to herself. Like me, you cannot believe she is doing this TO YOU. Not just the kids. To you this must feel like it is snowballing out of control. You must on some level feel it is your fault, like my own mother felt with my sister. My mother was enraged. Just enraged. But I believe under the rage and pain, there was guilt. [U]Guilt she should not have accepted. It was not my mother's fault. But how my sister milked it.[/U] I believe these things can be turned around. I know they can. I think you have already started turning this around. I think you began this process today. You have asked yourself powerful questions. The answers do not exist yet because you have not put them into practice. But you will. There are hugs. There is: [I]I miss you[/I]. There is: [I]I am sorry[/I]. There is: [I]let's try again[/I]. There is: [I]What can I do to help?[/I] There is: [I]can we spend time together without the kids[/I]? [I]What would you like to do? [/I]There is: [I]would you like to go on a little trip? [/I]Or[I]: I made a window box for you.[/I] Do you fish? Do you camp? Do you like the zoo? What would be fun for the two of you. You are so blessed, for one, to have loving friends. Maybe they will help. You must be so worried about her. I am only seeing this now. Today my son and I had our typical tense exchange. Hostile. And then he came into the house with his arms out and said, "[I]Mom. Give me a hug[/I]." Is everything all better? No. But I remembered that love does not have conditions. On some level you feel like an abandoned lover. And so does she. Each of you is longing for the other. And nobody can say it. Say it. I hope you are not mad at me. [/QUOTE]
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