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<blockquote data-quote="Copabanana" data-source="post: 710423" data-attributes="member: 18958"><p>Your daughter is of an age where manipulation, self-serving, and a sense of entitlement, are part and parcel of trying to grow up and make a separate life and identity. It is hard to separate out what is functional and what is personality. I would take with a grain of salt any diagnostic labels given here on this forum.</p><p></p><p>Now, I am going to get tough here, to make a point. When I came to this forum I had enrolled in the same online college classes I had pushed my son to enroll in, despite the fact I have an advanced degree. Why had I done this? To be sure he performed in his coursework. At that time he was a 26 year old man.</p><p></p><p>What I had done was borne of desperation and fear. But it was overtly controlling, manipulative and out of control. I am in reality none of those things. I had felt myself driven to it. By fear and love and hope.</p><p></p><p>I was wrong. I crossed boundaries I should not have crossed.</p><p></p><p>My son ended up sabotaging the whole thing by making a mockery of the class (and indirectly me).</p><p>You see, I did the same thing, with respect to the classes. And it backfired.</p><p></p><p>These are adult people. She is responsible to pay her bills. If she does not, the consequences should accrue to her. This is the only way we learn.</p><p></p><p>You see, I still do versions of the same thing. I use "help" to get control. I am wrong. There are parents here who have posted this:<em> only give what you give freely with no expectations and no strings attached.</em></p><p></p><p>The reality as I see it is that you redeemed that car <em>for you</em>. You could not bear seeing her suffer or in want. But the thing is the only thing that will teach her is her suffering and want.</p><p></p><p>She gets to decide whether or not a car is worth it to her. If it is, she pays. If not, she does not. She lives with her life as she makes it.</p><p></p><p>This feels horrible and impossible for a loving mother. I know. Because I am in this spot, too.</p><p></p><p>I have the same issue, too. My son was homeless or a couch surfer. We bought a 2nd house<em> for him</em> because I cannot bear living with him much of the time. Luckily it has been a good investment and has given him for a while at least the opportunity to work and help, it has presented a lot of problems too.</p><p></p><p>These kids will be how they want to be. They will do what they want to do. They will win. The more we get into it with them and try to get them to "win" in our version, they will oppose us even more strongly, and to get out from under, make worse mistakes. We end up fueling the exact thing we so fear. Believe me. I know this from experience.</p><p></p><p>The only way to do this is to understand that we are doing the same thing with THEM. Oh yes. We tell ourselves it is for their good...blah, blah, blah...but it is still a power and control trip on our part.</p><p>So with this, I think you are manipulating her. I am sorry to be blunt but it sounds like there is a little bit of a war going on.</p><p> The first goal I might set if I was you--(and believe me I am on your side here, and I know exactly what it is you are trying to do--which I support. But it does not work. I have learned it does not work. Let me put this disclaimer in right now) I would come clean.</p><p></p><p>First I would think about all of this financial stuff. And I would ask myself, do I agree with the lady on the internet? Or not. Was it respectful to my daughter that I bailed her out financially and took control over her money in a kind of back-handed way....and now conceal that her card has arrived. Oh. I know SHE IS DOING IT TOO. And maybe she is doing it worse and she did it first. But the only control you have is in you and deciding how you will operate.</p><p></p><p>But really. What is your goal here? If there is this subterfuge and plotting between the two of you, how do you get things back on track? Personally, I think I would cop to it (or think about it, and talk with your husband.)</p><p></p><p>The real true conversation as I see it about the money is:<em> I was wrong. I should not have inserted myself into your financial life. You had made decisions about the car, which were painful to me. </em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>But I should not have put myself into the center of things. I know it is hard right now to pay me back. And I know it was wrong to take control and responsibilities to pay your bills. </em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>You are a grown woman. I keep trying to treat you as a child, because you are my child and I love you with all my heart. </em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>But you are an adult woman, and I was wrong. It was disrespectful of me. I want to clean it up. Because it was my error, I will gift you those car payments. There are no strings attached. And there is more: Your debit card arrived the other day. I held it back. That was wrong, too.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p>Now the thing is this: I know how horribly hard this all is. I am dealing with my own version of this h-ll. And it is worse for you in that there are these babies involved. I used to say with respect to my son: <em>it is like my heart is walking around out there on the street g-d knows where.</em> And it felt like my physical heart was out of my body. Bloody with the aorta just dragging on the sidewalk...I did not mean it metaphorically. That was who it felt to be me.</p><p></p><p>And you? You have two baby hearts out there with your girl.</p><p></p><p>But the thing is this: what can you really do? You are powerless except through your relationship with your daughter. And controlling her and taking control seem to not be working. Because the reality is she has found some guy that seems to have a better deal for her. At least for right now.</p><p></p><p>And even if she has to fall back on you...temporarily...unless she develops personal resources...this will be a revolving door.</p><p></p><p>She has to begin to work from integrity and strength and the only way you have any control or role right now in her learning to be this person is within the relationship with you. That has to be a model of integrity, truth and responsibility. In you. With her. (Of course this is only my point of view, which I have no right to believe is correct for anybody except for myself.)</p><p></p><p>But that is how I see it.</p><p></p><p>Another disclaimer: I am certain that there are people on this forum who believe I take too much responsibility, still, and allow my child, too much, still, to dominate my head. But the thing is this: every other parent here is only operating our of their own subjective head. Nobody knows how to do this in a way that is objectively true.</p><p></p><p>So I would try to begin by cleaning up my own act. (I just said that to myself, not you.) I am in a horrible state myself today with stuff that happened with my own son, and with me. I feel despondent and hopeless--about myself. Because this is how I get. I allow my son to hurt me when I want too much from him. And I feel it is him that has attacked me when it is the opposite. I wanted too much from him--something he could not or did not want to give and I set myself up. By wanting something from him, something important that he could or could not do, I opened myself up, and my heart got stabbed. And my hopes for myself crushed. I did it based upon my own want and need and love. And I stepped out on the plank...and crashed down into the surf...and cannot find the boat...which is me.</p><p></p><p>Which now, as I read this, in part, is what happened to you, I think. A little bit, at least.</p><p></p><p>Our lives, our feelings are our responsibilities. You gave her that money. For you. You loved your grandson. For you. She owes you not one thing. She is an adult woman. A mother. She can be with whatever man she wants for as long as she wants. She can pay her bills or not. She can take her children and do what she chooses.</p><p></p><p>But she is responsible for the consequences, too. Just as you are, for you. Your only power here is to learn about yourself, and to take responsibility here. Me, too. If our kids err, in a way that hurts us, we are the ones who need to change. The work that gets done on this forum is primarily inside us, the parents. Learning what they call "detachment." You will find an article on the PE forum. I think it is there.</p><p></p><p>All I can say more is this: it is all very, very hard and painful. That is all I can say.</p><p></p><p>We try to live for them...and it blows up in our faces...we cannot stand to be without them...and we end up feeling crushed and defeated. (I am singing my own song, here. It is the blues or that Portuguese singing that sounds like death itself. It is bothering me now I cannot remember the name of it. But think of agony, put to words and music. I am singing that now.)</p><p></p><p>I probably should have waited to respond until I felt stronger and more upbeat about myself. Oh well.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Copabanana, post: 710423, member: 18958"] Your daughter is of an age where manipulation, self-serving, and a sense of entitlement, are part and parcel of trying to grow up and make a separate life and identity. It is hard to separate out what is functional and what is personality. I would take with a grain of salt any diagnostic labels given here on this forum. Now, I am going to get tough here, to make a point. When I came to this forum I had enrolled in the same online college classes I had pushed my son to enroll in, despite the fact I have an advanced degree. Why had I done this? To be sure he performed in his coursework. At that time he was a 26 year old man. What I had done was borne of desperation and fear. But it was overtly controlling, manipulative and out of control. I am in reality none of those things. I had felt myself driven to it. By fear and love and hope. I was wrong. I crossed boundaries I should not have crossed. My son ended up sabotaging the whole thing by making a mockery of the class (and indirectly me). You see, I did the same thing, with respect to the classes. And it backfired. These are adult people. She is responsible to pay her bills. If she does not, the consequences should accrue to her. This is the only way we learn. You see, I still do versions of the same thing. I use "help" to get control. I am wrong. There are parents here who have posted this:[I] only give what you give freely with no expectations and no strings attached.[/I] The reality as I see it is that you redeemed that car [I]for you[/I]. You could not bear seeing her suffer or in want. But the thing is the only thing that will teach her is her suffering and want. She gets to decide whether or not a car is worth it to her. If it is, she pays. If not, she does not. She lives with her life as she makes it. This feels horrible and impossible for a loving mother. I know. Because I am in this spot, too. I have the same issue, too. My son was homeless or a couch surfer. We bought a 2nd house[I] for him[/I] because I cannot bear living with him much of the time. Luckily it has been a good investment and has given him for a while at least the opportunity to work and help, it has presented a lot of problems too. These kids will be how they want to be. They will do what they want to do. They will win. The more we get into it with them and try to get them to "win" in our version, they will oppose us even more strongly, and to get out from under, make worse mistakes. We end up fueling the exact thing we so fear. Believe me. I know this from experience. The only way to do this is to understand that we are doing the same thing with THEM. Oh yes. We tell ourselves it is for their good...blah, blah, blah...but it is still a power and control trip on our part. So with this, I think you are manipulating her. I am sorry to be blunt but it sounds like there is a little bit of a war going on. The first goal I might set if I was you--(and believe me I am on your side here, and I know exactly what it is you are trying to do--which I support. But it does not work. I have learned it does not work. Let me put this disclaimer in right now) I would come clean. First I would think about all of this financial stuff. And I would ask myself, do I agree with the lady on the internet? Or not. Was it respectful to my daughter that I bailed her out financially and took control over her money in a kind of back-handed way....and now conceal that her card has arrived. Oh. I know SHE IS DOING IT TOO. And maybe she is doing it worse and she did it first. But the only control you have is in you and deciding how you will operate. But really. What is your goal here? If there is this subterfuge and plotting between the two of you, how do you get things back on track? Personally, I think I would cop to it (or think about it, and talk with your husband.) The real true conversation as I see it about the money is:[I] I was wrong. I should not have inserted myself into your financial life. You had made decisions about the car, which were painful to me. But I should not have put myself into the center of things. I know it is hard right now to pay me back. And I know it was wrong to take control and responsibilities to pay your bills. You are a grown woman. I keep trying to treat you as a child, because you are my child and I love you with all my heart. But you are an adult woman, and I was wrong. It was disrespectful of me. I want to clean it up. Because it was my error, I will gift you those car payments. There are no strings attached. And there is more: Your debit card arrived the other day. I held it back. That was wrong, too. [/I] Now the thing is this: I know how horribly hard this all is. I am dealing with my own version of this h-ll. And it is worse for you in that there are these babies involved. I used to say with respect to my son: [I]it is like my heart is walking around out there on the street g-d knows where.[/I] And it felt like my physical heart was out of my body. Bloody with the aorta just dragging on the sidewalk...I did not mean it metaphorically. That was who it felt to be me. And you? You have two baby hearts out there with your girl. But the thing is this: what can you really do? You are powerless except through your relationship with your daughter. And controlling her and taking control seem to not be working. Because the reality is she has found some guy that seems to have a better deal for her. At least for right now. And even if she has to fall back on you...temporarily...unless she develops personal resources...this will be a revolving door. She has to begin to work from integrity and strength and the only way you have any control or role right now in her learning to be this person is within the relationship with you. That has to be a model of integrity, truth and responsibility. In you. With her. (Of course this is only my point of view, which I have no right to believe is correct for anybody except for myself.) But that is how I see it. Another disclaimer: I am certain that there are people on this forum who believe I take too much responsibility, still, and allow my child, too much, still, to dominate my head. But the thing is this: every other parent here is only operating our of their own subjective head. Nobody knows how to do this in a way that is objectively true. So I would try to begin by cleaning up my own act. (I just said that to myself, not you.) I am in a horrible state myself today with stuff that happened with my own son, and with me. I feel despondent and hopeless--about myself. Because this is how I get. I allow my son to hurt me when I want too much from him. And I feel it is him that has attacked me when it is the opposite. I wanted too much from him--something he could not or did not want to give and I set myself up. By wanting something from him, something important that he could or could not do, I opened myself up, and my heart got stabbed. And my hopes for myself crushed. I did it based upon my own want and need and love. And I stepped out on the plank...and crashed down into the surf...and cannot find the boat...which is me. Which now, as I read this, in part, is what happened to you, I think. A little bit, at least. Our lives, our feelings are our responsibilities. You gave her that money. For you. You loved your grandson. For you. She owes you not one thing. She is an adult woman. A mother. She can be with whatever man she wants for as long as she wants. She can pay her bills or not. She can take her children and do what she chooses. But she is responsible for the consequences, too. Just as you are, for you. Your only power here is to learn about yourself, and to take responsibility here. Me, too. If our kids err, in a way that hurts us, we are the ones who need to change. The work that gets done on this forum is primarily inside us, the parents. Learning what they call "detachment." You will find an article on the PE forum. I think it is there. All I can say more is this: it is all very, very hard and painful. That is all I can say. We try to live for them...and it blows up in our faces...we cannot stand to be without them...and we end up feeling crushed and defeated. (I am singing my own song, here. It is the blues or that Portuguese singing that sounds like death itself. It is bothering me now I cannot remember the name of it. But think of agony, put to words and music. I am singing that now.) I probably should have waited to respond until I felt stronger and more upbeat about myself. Oh well. [/QUOTE]
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