Adult daughter stole entire life savings-Part 2

Midwest Mom- Thank you so much for your suggestion. As I said before, I have no idea how these things work and welcome any suggestions and words of wisdom anyone has to offer.

Cedar- I laughed when I read your post and saw all my quotes listed out. I thought, "Well, when you put it that way, I guess you are right, no wonder I am so tired.

COM- Your message brought tears to my eyes after a very long, exhausting day. I never really thought about how it might just be impossible for some people to actually "get it." I am very very fortunate in that most of the people I care deeply about do get it. As for my one brother, the one who loaned me the money, he is gentle and kind and caring even when he can't quite understand it all. I can in no way complain about that. I think it is just as simple as you say, they just cannot imagine.... I am the one who keeps apologizing. He is the one who keeps saying to let it go. I will work on that. As a parent, it is very hard to let go of the sins your child has committed against others, especially when you were used even unwittingly. That is a tough one.

Numerous questions remain.
On a practical level, where was she if she was not working at Macys all those hours during that three year period? Where was she if she was not in school at the local university for two years? Just those two things took up a lot of her time. Then there are the cross country trips for photography gigs that never existed, the trips to southern CA to supposedly judge gymnastic competitions, and the 37 trips to * between February 2008 and June 11, 2011. Where was she and what was she doing?

If she is one of those rare people who genuinely cannot feel remorse, shame or empathy, what will become of her? For without those things, how can there ever be restitution, and eventual redemption. How can anyone forgive her for all of this if she does not honestly care about what she has done?

Will forgiveness come? At this point it is hard to imagine if and when forgiveness might come. I find I am not eaten up with anger and bitterness, so I am not terribly concerned about how not forgiving her would affect me. I do wonder how I can ever forgive her for constantly fueling my hopes for resolution while deliberately and simultaneously creating a chaos designed to obfuscate her ongoing theft. How can I forgive her for using me as the instrument to defraud her uncle and for forever changing my relationship with him? For encouraging her dad and me to file a lawsuit against the mortgage company based on fraudulent bank statements she herself produced? For being more than willing to see her dad and I lose our home? How do I forgive her for stealing and squandering the money left to me by the death of my hard-working parents? How do I forgive someone whose ongoing lies and deception promised resolution that was always eminent but was never going to come? She deliberately created hope based on those lies and deception and continually made promises she never had intentions of fulfilling. How does one forgive that? These are tough questions. God and I are going to have to work on that one together.

Will I ever manage to get our credit repaired? Get us out of bankruptcy? After all, I was the one who sent the credit bureaus all those fake documents “proving” that all those thousands of dollars in debts were not ours. Now I have to tell them, “Ooops, forget all that. New story. Those documents were all fake and we were the victims of identity theft.” So far, they haven’t been at all anxious to work with me.
If she is capable of all this, what else is she capable of? To what extremes might she go when she is finally confronted by the police? Is she a danger to herself or to others? Is she a flight risk? What can we reasonably predict and what proactive or preventive steps do we need to take?

As always, more questions that answers. I guess we just wait and try to stay ahead of the game.

To all of you who have posted messages, thank you so much. What a wonderful and wise group of peopple you are.
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I dont know that you can forgive her. Maybe it would be better to remember those things. She just isnt a trustworthy person.

I would bet money she will run when confronted. First she will try to convince everyone with fake documents and arguements though. I can guarantee she will try to push this onto you and your husband. If it goes to court she will throw you under the bus in order to try and make the jury doubt your story.


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I could never forgive or forget. This is just too big.

I was somewhat reminded of this last night on the show Bar Rescue. These parents had taken their life savings and retirement money and bought a bar. They set it up so that their two sons would run it. Well they had one son be the operating manager and the other one just worked there. In 3 years the manager son had managed to run this bar into the ground and now this poor couple were 1.5 million dollars in debt. The bar was losing 10K a month and they had a second mortgage on their home. It was all about to come crashing down.

The youngest brother was doing his level best but he was never trained to cook, he was trying though, he was doing as much cleaning as he could in the hours that are in a day but it wasnt enough. The managing brother brought in one of his friends to be a bartender and he was a joke. The managing brother sat on his rump and played on the computer all day. The bar was filthy. It was horrible.

Now I dont know if you have ever seen that show but John Taffer rode in on his horse and fixed things but boy did he rip everyone a new one. He brought in a real manager and the older brother and his friend got mad. The friend left in a tizzy.

Those boys, especially the older one, would have just let that bar close down and let their parents lose everything. Heck it wasnt their money on the line.


Active Member
Jeanne still here reading along, many of those ?s you asked you will never have the answer to. I think the biggest problem bigger then that she robbed you or you questioning your ability to forgive her... at least the one problem that I would have most trouble with is she made you "lose face".

Years ago I worked for a carnival and had many friends out there but because of the way the girls father made me look like a total idiot, I haven't set foot on that lot in about 15 years.

Please don't make my mistake and in the process of hiding your shame cut off people that could be a good source of comfort and support. Yes it happened, yes it was bad but show the world that you are a survivor and that it will take more then a misguided offspring to take you down.

sending hugs and positive energy


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Jeanne, I have been studying antisocial personality disorder, which is the one where a person has no conscience and has no problem ripping anyone off...and no guilt. You said "rare." It is NOT rare. It's scary how rare it's NOT. Most antisocials don't end up in prison, although many do, but they guess that one in twenty-five people are antisocial. That's a lot more than those who have schizophrenia or bipolar (1 in 100). The worst part about those with this personality wiring is that they are charming on the surface and very able to fool others into trusting them.

You can forgive, if you consider that the forgiveness is not for the other person. It is for you. It is to say "I forgive you, now i'm not going to think about it every minute of my life and I'm moving on." It doesn't matter if the other person wants to be forgiven or not. It is a personal decision that helps you come to peace with your life. It is very common to hear forgive, don't forget, and that's smart. Sadly, and many of us have to deal with pretty nasty adult kids too, we need to be on guard and face what our adult children really are; who they are, to protect ourselves and our other loved ones.

Have you read any books by Robert Hare? Very fascinating, in dept studies on antisocial personality, which I suspect is in my family DNA somewhere. The brains of these people are wired differently. I've seen documentaries on television too. They do not have the ability to care about other people. I think it's in the frontal lobe somewhere...wires are not connecting. It was too complex for me, but I got the are born that way.

One part of the documentary that I remember clearly is that they did studies on people who had Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) and those without it. Those with Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) reacted differently to certain horrific scenes than those who did not have it. The ones without it got notably upset with body signals indicating it when shown sick or hurt or tortured people while the ASDers did not have much of a reaction at all. They tend to have little fear as well as lack of empathy and a conscience. That is what makes them so dangerous.

To date, and I hope this changes, there is no cure and most ASDs don't want to change. Do I think your daughter has it? Well, I'm not Dr. Hare. Based on the little I know (and it's little) I think so, and if she does and if you suspect she does, you will have to be leery of her for the rest of her life. Trust me, you are not the only one here with kids who are antisocial. She just is very smart and took it very far.
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As husband and i think our difficult child has anti-social behavior disorder, we have also read a lot - though not as much as MWM. One thing I have read time and time again, is NEVER allow them access to your finances. That sounds like a clue, right there, that your daughter may have this. They feel entitled, never remorseful. They see people as objects - how can this "thing" get me to where I deserve to be? But, it is your baby grown into an adult you love. How many parents would really believe this? Our difficult child was a jerk, so it was easier for us. He seldom played nice.

Painful for us, but part of the disorder. I remember, years and years ago, putting a "stop" on our bank accounts. You could only access the accounts in the bank if you were husband or me, with a photo ID. We knew then not to trust him.

Something had happened.

ONLY BECAUSE, difficult child took a church check from our kitchen counter, visited our pastor, got one of his business cards, and opened a checking account with that church check. Guess what. There was no endorsement on the back of the check; neither was there a teller # stamped on it. He was that glib. (though, we figure the teller was in kahoots with him?) We filed a police report, but nothing ever came of it. My brother, an attorney, predicted there never would be. It was a $500 check, huge to us (!), but my brother said it was not enough for the bank to pursue.
dstc- I think you have a point on the forgiveness issue. The forensic psychiatrist said something similar when he said that if she shows up at our door on her knees with the two tiny grandchildren in tow begging for our help, that I should reread every report I wrote for the police and the 30 plus page victim statement. At least I don't have to think about that now.

The detective told me this morning (we communicate several times a week) that he felt he was getting close to calling her in for questioning and he would be meeting with the prosecutor within the next few days to see if he gets the go ahead to meet with either her or her and her husband both. He said he would tell her that we want absolutely no contact from her at all and if she does contact, depending on what it is, she can be prosecuted for that as well as the stuff he already will be talking to her about. We will see.

As for her running, that is clearly a possibility but with no money and, if they take her passport, it could be tough. If she tries to take the little ones (2 and 3 months old) she would have to have money and a place to go I would assume. On the other hand, she may just be arrogant enough to think she can stick it out and pin the whole mess on us.

Dammit Janet, that is exactly how I am feeling and don't know what to do with that. I guess it is easier to forgive is someone steals, repents, and then makes full restitution. It might even be easier if someone steals, sincerely repents, and cannot make full restitution for some legitimate reason. But, to steal our entire life savings of over $300,000, leave us thousands of dollars in debt, and devise and implement horrific cover-up schemes that nearly left me suicidal, is tougher, especially in the face of denial and more lies.

Witzend, I'm no sure forgiving is easy in this case. Wish me luck.

Helpangel, I so get the "saving face" and shame issue. These kinds of actions mark you and make others who know about them see you differently. I saw my sister-in-law (wife of the brother who lent me the $20,000) two days ago for the first time in over two years. She and I were friends from high school roughly a thousand years ago. I know from a couple different incidents that she had been angry with me and did not believe me when I told my brother that I was having such a terrible time paying him back. When she saw me now, she threw her arms around me and hugged me very tightly. I was in tears of course, but there were others around so I just smiled and pretended everything was okay. I know she knows the basic situation as I have told my brother all of that, and I know she feels very bad for us, but I cannot help still feel hurt. I am sure that will pass eventually. As you say, we need supportive people and should not cut them off.

MWM- I am no familar with Dr. Hare's work but will make sure to read everything I can from now on. Thanks so much for the head's up. Based on what I have read I do believe she definitely fits the category. I believe it but i cannot process it right now just for my own sanity's sake. I am reading the book several of you recommended, The Sociopath Next Door, and I could have written much of it myself based on our experience with her.

Seeking Strength, I totally get the scam you describe. Our situation was made worse by the fact she pretended to be such a perfect, kind, caring person all while doing such terrible things. It is not at all surprising that the bank would not pursue the $500 your son stole from you. Not one bank involved in our mess has stepped up to do one thing. Their attitude all along was that they don't
Sorry, I misread, the part about the bank not pursuing, and then accidently hit post reply. It was after the police report that nothing came of your theft. That does not surprise me either. As of now, we are 15 months into an investigation and still waiting.

I seem to be able to process facts but not emotions. That is probably best for now.

Thank you all again so much.


Active Member
Hi Jeanne because of the nature of her crimes, they probably already have her on the do no fly list and have flagged her passport.

The problem with that old phrase "forgive and forget" is forgive is one thing (you are many years away from that) but if you forget you are going to need to forgive, forgive, forgive... (not sure how to do sideways 8 on the computer but you get the idea)

I'm having a hard time believing there weren't drugs involved in all of this... it's true drugs not always involved when someone steals but it is usually only a true addict who will steal your wallet then help you look for it.

Regardless of what her motives were please continue to find support for yourself wherever you can find it, therapy, support groups, posting here etc. circle the wagons and keep that fire burning bright.

sending hugs and positive energy


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Nancy, nope, you're wrong about those with antisocial personality disorder. They often do not use drugs. Money and the game of deceit is their motivator.They like money, don't like to work too hard for it, and love to put one over on other humans, whom they feel are all inferior to them. It is part of their amusement. The cold and calculated way this was done does not seem to me to be the chaotic, scattered, desperate thinking of a drug addict.

Maybe you would also find Dr. Hare's book very interesting. He is very specific about the disorder, moreso than any book I've read on it. Antisocials can be drug addicts or they can just break the law because they want something and will get it at any cost. Most are very clever and, on the surface, extremely likeable, which fools people into trusting them.

Not all psychopaths kill, like Ted Bundy did. Most don't kill. Stealing, scamming, taking somebody for all they have then disappearing, playing mind games...that is more their arena. Many elude prison for a long time, but many, many also do end up in prison. Since they have no real moral compass, they do eventually get caught. They do not think like you or me. They do not feel remorse. It is a foreign emotion to them; in fact, they have few emotions. People are objects.

I'm going to post psychiatric Cental's website on Antisocial Personality Disorder. They had a thread there once about funerals and how do you pretend to be sad about the deceased pesron? It was interesting. The posters were not trying to be smart alecs. They truly did not feel sadness at funerals and most said they mimicked other people's behavior, but did not themselves feel grief. One said he always feels like laughing at a funeral, and he doesn't know why, but he holds it in.

These people have something missing upstairs. As of yet, scientists are getting closer to figuring out what it is, but there is so far no 100% concensus, except that the brains of antisocials definitely respond differently to distressing situations about other people and animals than "normals" do. That has been shown with brain wave testing.

If you know somebody who is antisocial, frankly you can never trust the person. Ever. You always need to keep your guard up.

Antisocial forum: First there is an explanation, but there is also a forum if you look or want to read it.


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Witzend, I'm no sure forgiving is easy in this case. Wish me luck.

I think you misunderstand. I hope that you will give the link I gave you a read. It has been very helpful to me in forgiveness.You have to understand that forgiveness doesn't necessarily mean continuing a relationship with the person, or forgetting. Actually, Bishop Tutu recommends that you "forgive and remember" so that you won't fall into that trap again.

However, when I talk of forgiveness I mean the belief that you can come out the other side a better person. A better person than the one being consumed by anger and hatred. Remaining in that state locks you in a state of victimhood, making you almost dependent on the perpetrator. If you can find it in yourself to forgive then you are no longer chained to the perpetrator. You can move on, and you can even help the perpetrator to become a better person too.

Here is a link to a different quick article on the subject by Desmond Tutu.


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I wanted to add that in this theory of forgiveness, the perpetrator has to admit their wrongdoing and apologize, so if you can't forgive your daughter under the circumstances it's only reasonable and you don't have to.

Ergo - she isn't sorry so you don't have to forgive her, and if you forget what she did, you're giving her - and others - tacit permission to do it again.

So, forgiveness is easy as soon as she acknowledges the error of her ways - don't hold your breath waiting for it. Forgetting is more difficult because 1) you won't, and 2) you shouldn't.

It's a completely different way of looking at forgiving and forgetting than we were all brought up on.

Scent of Cedar *

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However, when I talk of forgiveness I mean the
belief that you can come out the other side a better person. A better person than the one
being consumed by anger and hatred. Remaining in that state locks you in a state of victimhood,
making you almost dependent on the perpetrator. If you can find it in yourself to forgive
you are no longer chained to the perpetrator. You can move on, and you can even help the
perpetrator to become a better person too.

This was so very important to me this morning. I think we need to understand what it was that happened, and why it happened ~ how could this person not love us enough to victimize us this way? That's the thing that throws me into the FOG every time.

But...I thought you loved me.

For me, that always leads back to what I might have done, to who I might be, really ~ no matter who I think I am ~ for that person whose role it was to help or to love me, to have done what they chose, so coldbloodedly, to do to me over time, instead.

Over time.

That is a big thing, for me. I hear that in your posts too, Jeanne. These betrayals were not crimes of passion.

These horribly destructive things were done to us, over time.

I feel like a fool about that. I am always posting here about that Billy Joel song about having been a fool for lesser things.

I really did mean that. I kept stumbling over these really bad things that seemed to swoop in out of nowhere.

Clear blue sky.


Given that I am willing to take responsibility for pretty much anything that happens within a ten mile radius


there are times when I feel like I must be this big dope, or someone who is stupid in some way that doesn't show up in other ways. How else could these things keep happening to me? Reading The Sociopath Next Door (which I just finished yesterday) clarified so much about that for me.

Just before The Sociopath, I read "Keeping The Love You Find" (Harville Hendrix). The value in that book is that he gives a concise description of how to determine your childhood woundings and trace how it is they affect your life as an adult, in your relationships.

Between the two, and especially here, in our discussion today, I am clearing so much that was toxic to me, so much that I didn't understand.

("GRRRRR!" Jeanne roars. "Cedar's hijacking my post, again! Oh, that Cedar." "Right you are, Jeanne." Cedar says, not even bothering to blush. "But I think this is all bound up together. Each of the things being discussed today addresses an individual layer of betrayal. That we can see it all at once like this means we can see how the layers fit together. Through doing that, we can see what it meant for us that these things have happened to us. With Witz' post, we can then determine to forgive. Which is about letting go, about getting out from under the terrible judgments we inflict on ourselves.")

Nancy was right, about the loss of face. I never thought about it like that. Because it happened, I assumed I had it coming. Assumed that, whatever I thought I was doing, whatever I thought was happening, I was mistaken.

How then, would it be possible to trust myself again about anything? And that, pretty much, is how my life has been. There are some things I simply stopped doing. Other things, things I could not avoid, I have done and then, waited with baited breath for the world to come crashing down.

The information in the Hendrix book was so helpful to me, Jeanne ~ especially in relation to the books/discussion on sociopathy, forgiveness, and loss of face. I remember your posting about nightmares, anxiety, and difficulty sleeping.

I think that happens to us when we force ourselves to cope during the day, when we force ourselves to remain rational while awake. It all comes out in our sleep...but you have nothing factual to understand what happened, how it could happen, why it would ever happen, to you.

Your own child.

The things discussed on this thread have been very helpful to me, in that regard.

I think the biggest problem bigger then that she robbed you or you questioning your ability to forgive her... at least the one problem that I would have most trouble with is she made you "lose face".

Remember I posted about the therapist and counter-transference. I saw him because of the blame I was carrying around about what happened to my daughter. I was so unsure about what had happened to her, about what I had done to her to make her do what she was doing that I became afraid to parent, to have authority, even to advise my son on his clothing choices. It was at this time that whatever went wrong with the therapist happened.

So, I was pretty much devastated on every level.

One of the series of things I did at the worst of it was to go back to school. I became a Hospice volunteer. I took ballet classes. Each of these activities was demanding in their own way. When I had taken the degree, become effective as a Hospice volunteer, and learned to dance...I was a person who was more than the person who had been destroyed.

So...I lived.

The worst part about those with this
personality wiring is that they are charming on the surface and very able to fool others into trusting them.

Helpangel, I so get the "saving face"
and shame issue. These kinds of actions mark you and make others who know about them
see you differently.

They do. We see ourselves differently, too.

I do.

The cold and calculated way this was done does not seem to me to be the chaotic, scattered, desperate thinking of a drug addict.

I agree. From what I have seen with difficult child son, and how differently he behaves than difficult child daughter, I agree.



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I really needed it this morning too. For several weeks.

To forgive is not just to be altruistic. It is the best form of self-interest. It is also a process that does not exclude hatred and anger. These emotions are all part of being human. You should never hate yourself for hating others who do terrible things: the depth of your love is shown by the extent of your anger.

I'm going to have to check out his "forgiveness project".


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I have found your story and all subsequent posts so compelling. The breadth of the deceit involved should act as a cautionary tale to any of us that have been stolen from. Aside from the forgiveness aspect there are practical issues that arise. My husband and I have discussed them and intend to act on them in the next month. My 2 difficult child's have mental issues and both have had addiction problems. Booze, drugs, gambling...they have been better, been reformed, been worse. The scenario changes much as the seasons do. We are not wealthy by any stretch, but have been careful throughout our lives so to be able to take care of ourselves in our dotage. We have wills and have, after be both have passed, left our estate to our sons 50/50. Yikes! Our will was done when they were well and unencumbered. Would we want our adult sons with all the vices and illness they have acquired to have a lump sum of money in one fell swoop? No. Hell no! Emotionally, as a family, the future looks uncertain. husband and I haven't been successful in helping them in the past. But to give them resources beyond what they have would have been able to earn given their present lifestyles seems unwise. So we are meeting with an estate attorney to set up trusts for our sons and our special needs grandson to mete out small sums of money over time to enable them to survive and perhaps give them a chance to get well.

Because of the thefts we have explained to our younger son, (our elder is in no shape to hear this right now) that we are doing this and that the executor of the estate will be one of my best friends from grade school. She has difficult children of her own and will not be swayed by my sons' playing the sympathy card as a family member might. We have also said that substance abuse, incarceration, mental illness or our untimely demise is a game changer. There is a small part of me that is afraid of their ruthless behavior and mistreatment of us and our property. Jeanne, your daughter has already perpetrated crimes against you and your family beyond what one can imagine. The elaborateness and deliberateness of her actions are sobering. Please put some safeguards in place for your financial future. We don't have the kind of kids that are going to take us under their roof or probably even give us bus fare to the nursing home. They are takers. Shore up what you have left and let her know her future financial prospects will fall squarely on her shoulders. I hate to think this way. It's maudlin and scary. But sometimes the best way to take care of an adult child is to take care of ourselves first. Good luck and I am so very sorry for your difficulties and your heartache.


one day at a time
Tish and Jeanne, this is something all of us should think about, you are right.

Right now my will splits it all up between easy child and difficult child with my sister as executor. Since I am getting married in November, we are going to redo all of our documents, since he has two daughters and I have two sons. I also don't want him to be put in the place of having to give/not give assets to difficult child.

So we are going to work through this in the next few months.

It's hard to know what and when and how much, if anything, to people are drug addicts.

And yes, having someone who has good judgment in dealing with this sticky issues when we are gone is key. I hate to even put that burden on anybody but it would need to be someone who loves the difficult child and understands the road we have been down already.

I'm sorry that both of your sons are in this state, Tish, and it sounds like you and husband are one united front. That is a blessing.

Happy Fourth to you today! Hugs.

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
Would we want our adult sons with all
the vices and illness they have acquired to have a lump sum of money in one fell swoop?

We think about this, too. In a way, it's the final insult, the deepest cut. Neither child would be able to afford the taxes. And what about those things considered family heirlooms ~ what in the world do we do with those things that mean nothing much and everything in the world?

The history of a family...gone.

The future of a family, destroyed.

I do think about this question.

difficult child daughter had been given all the old family photo albums, all the old family movies. She loves to watch those old movies, kept the photo albums out to be looked through by anyone, went through them often with her kids.

All those irreplaceable things are gone, now.

Given everything else that is destroyed, I know I shouldn't even be thinking about those kinds of family history things. This question of what to do with whatever is left has me thinking about that, this morning.

There are other things too, of course, that have been lost or sold.

We have also said that substance abuse, incarceration, mental illness or our untimely demise is a game changer

Untimely demise.... difficult child son told me once that he'd had his tarots read. He was to come into his inheritance at 42, he said, meaningfully.

It was chilling.

These are the woundings we don't talk about, don't post about, the words we hardly let ourselves know our child spoke.

I'm sure I took it wrong. Truthfully, I suppose we all think about the natures of our inheritances.

difficult child just turned 39.

There is a small part of me that is
afraid of their ruthless behavior and mistreatment of us and our property

The elaborateness and deliberateness of her actions are sobering.

Please put some safeguards in place for your financial future. We don't have the kind of kids that are going to take us under their
roof or probably even give us bus fare to the nursing home

That would be the scariest thing imaginable ~ to be dependent on either of my kids for anything.

But sometimes the best way to take
care of an adult child is to take care of ourselves first.

There is no one else to take care of us. It is wise to acknowledge that.

In fact, we may need protection...and probably will.

t's hard to know what and when and how much, if anything, to people are drug addicts.

Nothing should go to drug addicts. difficult child daughter destroyed or sold everything she had and went through $7000 cash in just a few months. Even the love she felt for her own children could not stop what happened. If we want there to be anything left of whatever we have, it is going to have to go to the grandchildren.

I wonder whether the threat of leaving whatever we do have to a specific charity in their names would force our addicted kids into straightening up?

It is an interesting question.

Tish, I hope you post back to us on how you decided to handle this.

Good morning, everyone. Thank you all so much for your messages. It is so sad yet so comforting to know that so many of us are dealing with similar issues that we never in our wildest imaginations thought we would be faced with.

Helpangel, I never thought of the do not fly list and the flagged passport. Thank you for mentioning it. I will check with the detective and see what he can tell me about this. We do have a concern that she might try to take off once confronted by the police. I certainly understand why you would think drugs are a problem in our situation. However, I still feel pretty sure that there are no drugs involved because of the way I have proven so much of the stolen money was spent. The other thing that puts me in the 'no drugs involved category" is that our daughter is physically beautiful and I believe that she thinks too much of herself, the lifestyle she created with the stolen money, and the physical toll drugs take on ones appearance to ever get involved.

MWM- I agree that everything she did was too cold and too calculated and too organized. She had to keep her head on her shoulders and her lies straight in order to do what she did. I firmly believe that money and deception are her game. I realize not that she has an "I win" attitude and will do anything to get what she wants, even if it means destroying the very people who love her. Thank you for the Psyche central website. I will check it out.

Witzend- Thank you for the Desmond Tutu article as well. The whole forgiveness thing is not a major issue for me now because until she admits, feels remorse, attempts to change, etc. it doesn't feel too relevant. I don't expect her to do any of those things HONESTLY so we are left with who or what she is. On the other hand, I am absolutely not consumed with anger and hatred for her. For one thing that is not part of my make-up. For another, if she truly is simply a sociopath, being angry or hating her seems absolutely pointless to me. Its like holding her up to a standard of conduct or behavior that she is simply not going to attain. Once again, its like hating my cat because she's not a dog. I think in the long run I will simply have a very extended grieving process if my predictions that she will never change proof true. I am in no way ready to tackle that yet.

Cedar- I know exactly how you feel when you think about "I thought s/he loved me." That has been one of the most difficult things to accept. I have come to believe that perhaps our daughter did love us sorta, kinda, in a way, but never like we have loved her and like she claimed she loved us. I believe at this point she is simply unable to feel those things like love, conscious, or remorse. That does not mean I pity her. I do not. She does not deserve pity. She deserves to be forcebly stopped and held accountable. Once that happens we will see what she else deserves. I too love Billy Joel and understand why you think of the lyrics to the song about being a fool for lesser things. While I understand it, I can't say I identify with the sentiments. I do not, and never have throughout this entire thing, felt like a fool. Mothers who do their absolute best to raise good citizens and who love their children with their whole hearts should never feel that way. I am so sorry for your heartache and for the heartache for our other comrades in arms. We are part of an army in which we simply got drafted.

Tish and COM- the estate and will issues are part of our list of things to do in the near future. Such a mess. We definitely have put safeguards on our finances at this point.

Now for the update. Yesterday, I received a very disturbing call from a detective for the sheriffs department where our daughter and son-in-law work. It seems our son-in-law has applied for a job with them and this was part of a background check. I was simply speechless at first until the detective told me that everything I told him would be confidential. I didn't have much choice but to give him a briefing on what has taken place, including the fact, that we still believe that our son-in-law has never been an active participant in any of the theft. The detective said that he has found out that there are serious financial problems there and it agreed with me that it is in all likely that our son-in-law has no idea what a financial mess he is in. I was just sick. I provided the name and contact number for our detective and also emphasized over and over that we did not want our son-in-law's professional future jeopardized by what our daugher has done to us. My husband is very very upset about the whole mess and the potential impact on our two tiny grandchildren. I have tried to reassure him that I do not believe that the babies have been impacted by the financial problems in that household because everything we saw of our daughter indicates she was a good mother and I firmly believe that our son-in-law is an excellent father. I do not believe for a moment that the babies are going hungry or unattended. It was really hard to get my husband settled down because he wants "to do something". I intend to report the call to our detective this morning and let him handle the situation. I also believe that once our son-in-law finds out what she has done we will be much more able to "do something" then by providing him with love, support, and child care while he works. I simply have to believe that eventually the right things will happen. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it for today at least.