Adult daughter stole entire life savings

[jeanne in CA]

Part 2-

There was nothing else I could do so I went home. My husband and I were both hysterical by this time. He got on the phone and started trying to locate an attorney for us. The attorney listened to our story and simply stated that if the sale was scheduled for two days hence there was nothing he could do for us. He said that if we were successful in getting a postponement he would meet with us to discuss options. The next day and a half were a nightmare. Finally we got word that the sale had been postponed for a little while but no one could tell us for how long. Eventually, the mortgage company postponed the sale for another month and we were able to meet with our new attorney. We submitted the “statements” and “payment history” my daughter had fabricated as proof of our claim and ended up filing a lawsuit. Based on our “proof”, the attorney was able to go to court and obtain a preliminary injunction against the sale of the home. We had to come up with a $5,000 bond on top of all the legal fees.
The lawsuit languished for several months. The mortgage company was having difficulty disputing our records and asked for additional time. Finally we discovered our daughter's ongoing financial and identity theft and realized that the documents she had given me to use as the basis of our suit were fraudulent. We immediately notified our attorney. He was not the least bit sympathetic and appeared to believe that we had tried to con him. It was not until an attorney friend of ours called him and vouched for our story that he seemed to believe us. Since we could no longer legitimately maintain that we had made the monthly payments the mortgage company claimed were in arrears, they was free to pursue the sale of the home. They made it clear that they intended to do so. That left us no other option than to file for bankruptcy for the simple reason that we did not have the funds to pay the arrearages and could not get a loan because our credit was ruined. The lawsuit was still pending until just recently when we finally told our attorney to withdraw it.
The mortgage situation has been particularly painful. In addition to the indescribable stress of it all was the knowledge that our daughter stole the money in my credit union and former bank account earmarked for the mortgage payments and used it for her own purposes. Then, she deliberately created and allowed us to use documents she had deliberately forged our lawsuit against the mortgage company. She knew about the thousands of dollars we were spending on legal fees to pursue what was clearly a bogus lawsuit suit against the mortgage company. And, she knew we could not afford the legal fees and court costs of such a lawsuit because she knew she had already embezzled nearly everything we had from all other sources.
Ok, I know I said I would try to curtail the lengthy posts and promise I will do better. For any of you who are thinking, "I wish this woman would shut up already!", I will.
Once again, thank you for the prayers and support.

 

[pasajes4]

WOW!

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

The easiest way not to cave is not so see them and that is what I am determined to achieve.

"...and that is what I am determined to achieve."

I like the strength in that way of seeing.

I have accepted the fact that I will always have more questions than answers.

"I have accepted the fact...."

Again, there is strength to be found in seeing things from this point of view. I am going to change my internal dialogue to reflect these new understandings.

I don’t spend a lot of time obsessing over the fact that when she could have become anything she wanted, she chose this. Rather, I take comfort in the fact that her story is not over. As long as she is alive, she may not be lost.

Another quotable, strengthening way to see and describe; to feel and find strength.

I am messy, ugly, wonderful. difficult child is messy, ugly, wonderful.

I like this too, COM. And it is true that we are messy, and ugly, and wonderful by turns. This is humbling, a good tool to employ when I am tempted to ride off on a horse colored judgment.

I had lost myself in difficult child, and that wasn't the first time. I was always setting myself aside for someone else, to the point of ridiculousness. That is not a good way to be. It is not valuing myself and taking care of myself and learning my own limitations. It is a crazy combination of arrogance and low self-esteem.

"...and that wasn't the first time. I was always setting myself aside for someone else...."

I hadn't realized this about myself. Not consciously.

"...a crazy combination of arrogance and low self esteem."

"...not valuing myself and taking care of myself and learning my own limitations."

am learning to value myself, and I am learning how to life that new life, which is a much better, more balanced life. It is a much less reactive life, in all of my relationships. I am learning to say no. I am learning to set limits for myself and other people (boundaries). I am learning about peace, contentment, joy, serenity. I am living within myself, not through other people

"...a much less reactive life."

I think this is something similar to what Brene Brown calls "riding the edge". (Brene Brown's Daring Greatly.)

It is like emptying myself and opening my eyes at the same time. There is nothing much left to judge with when we are empty.

When we are clear.

It is hard though, to sit with what is, and accept it without dressing it up into something presentable. This all fits in to self respect and to the loss of respect for self and other that I have posted about when I acknowledged the truth of what had happened to my relationship with my son.

Maybe not so much respecting, as honoring.

It is hard to honor what has happened and yet, it did happen; it is what it is. Maybe what I need to learn is to honor what is. This has something to do with Jeanne's posting about not being sure how she feels, but at the same time, understanding that while her child is alive, nothing about this is finished.

did what I knew how to do, to survive, until that didn't work anymore.

I like this, COM. I don't know though whether I have chosen to see everything as I see it to celebrate what little I had left, or to pretend what I had was acceptable. I had no choice but to accept it. Celebrating what there is to be celebrated, though so much about it is hurtful...maybe we would have changed our situations sooner, had we not pieced the facts together in a way that made it seem okay to continue to try.

I cannot say the same for me and it feels so surreal. I don't know what I feel at this point. I can't say I feel love. Maybe someday, depending on circumstances. At this point, I feel like she is just someone I thought I knew and loved with every part of my being.

Well spoken, Jeanne.

Cedar

 

[Tiredof33]

Jeanne, write as much and as often as you please, it does help.

I had problems with my difficult child from a young age and he started drug use early. With all of the problems I had with him I STILL FELL FOR ANOTHER CON lasting about six months a few years ago. He had truly been laid off about four times and he was truly enrolled in college courses and on the Dean's List. Then things fell apart for him, and as a true difficult child, it was easier to lie and party on my money that straighten out his college problems. He is 36yo and I have accepted that I can not trust or believe most of what he says.

These are our children and we want the best for them. I understand your feelings, mine is older and I am fed up with his problems. So I started looking after me first and I will never go back to the old me.

While mine never stole as much money as yours did, I spent a good chunk trying to 'help'. Mine is extremely intelligent (as your daughter sounds like she is) and it is sad that they didn't take this intelligence and creativity and use it for good.

I did have a lot of guilt in the beginning and mine used it for 'poor me' excuses. I finally see him for what he is and he shows no remorse. I have developed a low tolerance for the other low achievers in my family. Life has taught me that family blood does not mean that you have to take the abuse they dish out. So many are just too lazy and greedy to work for things in life, mine included.

I still have days where I am bothered, overall I count my many blessings. I wish you peace today and hopefully your troubles will be over soon.
(((hugs)))

 

[jeanne in CA]

Thank you, Cedar.

Tiredof33- I simply cannot imagine the nightmare of dealing with drug addiction and your child, especially when time after time your hope and faith that "this time will be different." Given that he was apparently doing better, no wonder up until six months ago you were still falling for his stories. I agree with you that at 36, he is on his own to chart his own course with you doing nothing but cheering from the distant sidelines. God bless him, I hope he gets it together at some point. However, the lack of remorse is not a good sign.

I have no illusions that our daughter's lack of remorse will ever really change and I have slowly come to accept that. I accepted it because I have seen during this past 14 months of discovery I have come to believe that if she were even remotely capable of feeling guilt or remorse she couldn't have done what she has done. I have to say that is easier than having her begging for forgiveness and lying through her teeth.

I am going to be away for a couple of days and it is probably a good thing. It has been a trying week. For starters, the attorneys who said they would help us take on the banks when I met with them several months ago have just informed me that our case is way too big for them. They said it is the biggest case they had ever seen and they simply do not have the resources to handle it. I told them the case hadn't grown since I first met with them so why didn't they tell me that before! That is the second failure to get someone to represent us in what they all said was a solid case for fiduciary neglect. I need to clear my head a bit to decide next steps.

Yesterday we received notice in the mail from the IRS that they are auditing our tax returns as a result of the "casualty losses" we reported from all the identity theft. Just what everyone needs, an IRS audit. I had written them a letter of explanation detailing what had happened and sent in the police reports, detectives contact information etc. Apparently that was not enough because they want a live meeting. That means that I get to personally pour out our ugly story to federal bureaucrats. Yippee.

If I drank, I'd be drunk all the time!

 

[pasajes4]

I think you are amazing. You are still putting one foot in front of another. You have not been arrested for beating the stuffing out of your trifling daughter.

 

[jeanne in CA]

Pasajes4- Now THAT made me laugh! If I thought it would get me anything but arrested and bloody knuckles I might consider it. Thank you.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

With everything that is happening around and to you Jeanne, you have been invariably kind, supportive, and attentive to each of us who has posted to you. I believe that whatever it is that is coming next for you, that strong sense of integrity and intention you have displayed here will carry you through it successfully.

The real tragedy here for your daughter has to do with your changed understanding of who she is. I read something once to the effect that we should never f**** with someone who is loyal to us (they said it just like that, so I did, too) because, whatever we gain from those actions, the cost will, in the end, be too great.

The hellishness of that lesson though, is that we never wanted our children to have to learn it. And once the loyal person is betrayed, coming back will be very hard, if not impossible.

I don't know what else to say, Jeanne.

We are here for you, and at least that is something.

Cedar

P.S. Maybe the IRS audit will turn out to be beneficial. There must have been a whole series of tax evasion laws broken by your daughter. I would imagine the IRS attorneys would know just how to go about prosecuting a case of this nature.

Ouch, Jeanne. What a terrible place to be, with your daughter on one side and your financial lives on the other.

I am so sorry this happened.

 

[DammitJanet]

Jeanne, I think of you constantly. I consider myself a pretty intelligent woman, I was even more intelligent when I was your daughters age. I could have never thought up all she has done. And do remember I have investigated and caught many, many people who have committed many different types of fraud. A few cases would make you laugh your rear off. I have to say some were quite inventive. But I caught them! I would have had a very hard time catching your daughter. I dont have the experience with computer crimes.

Oh speaking of that....do you remember the movie "Catch Me if You Can"? Its a true story about this con man who lived off of forging checks all over the country. We accidentally let my difficult child watch that movie because we didnt know what it was about but as soon as it was over his father and I looked at each other and said...Oh NO! It was like a manual for difficult child behaviors. And no joke, my kid tried every which way but loose to follow in that guys footsteps. Maybe your daughter watched it too!

 

[Hopeless]

Janet - I was thinking the same thing about her difficult child.....she is like the difficult child Catch Me if You Can movie was based on.


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[DammitJanet]

I have warned parents here countless times to never let their kids watch that movie.

 

[jeanne in CA]

Cedar, thank you sincerely for your kind words. I totally understand what you mean about coming back might be impossible. I guess if and when that happens there will be a new mourning that will be inevitable with the realization that she is lost for good. As much as I don't want to see her at this point or have any contact at all, I am not ready for that, I have to admit. Only time will tell. I actually spent a lot of time worrying about what she will have to go through once the police arrest her. That may sound nuts but as terrible as her actions have been, knowing that she will no doubt lose her marriage and her home once her husband finds out, does not bring me joy in any way. I have to admit I don't worry as much about that as I used to, but I think it boils down to most human beings do not like to see others suffer even if it is as a result of their own actions. On the other hand, it is logical that suffering must be part of accountability and possible redemption.

The IRS issue remains to be seen. I will tackle it this week for sure. I feel sure she never filed taxes since she was not working of course, but I do need to ask about her obligation to file taxes on the money she stole from us. That is pretty funny I have to admit. Not sure how any of this works. It is just the latest in a long line of issues that have come up during these past few years. I have found that so often it is not our willingness to admit what has happened, but rather the unrelenting reminders of it that are so draining. I am sure it is the same for all of you in this forum.

Dammit Janet, you are always to thoughtful even in the face of your own family challenges. I had to laugh also at your investigative experience which somewhat parallels mine. I had trained investigators reporting to me for many years, many of them I had trained myself. NEVER had any of us run into anything like this. I am glad you say you would have had a very hard time catching her either. What made it so difficult was all the forged documents. They had to have been pretty good since many of the banks didn't see them for what they were either. For sure, I was in such a frenzy all the time that unless they had been written in crayons on toilet paper, I would not have questioned their validity.

I have not see the movie but intend to do so within the next few days! You may have been joking about my daughter having patterned some of her actions after it, but it is quite possible. Here is a summary of just a few more of her tricks:

The Comcast email problem- sometime after all the problems started I began to notice that I was not getting all the emails that I was supposed to get. I was communicating extensively with banking officials from all over who were supposedly working on our accounts with several banks. I contacted Comcast and complained but they had no solution. I was so frustrated because I constantly awaiting responses that would not to come. Eventually I would get an email from them the indicating that they had emailed me earlier. I discussed this issue with my daughter and she suggested that I have them copy her as a precaution. That way if I did not get a response through my Comcast account, she would get it and forward it to me. This went on for a very long time. Once I discovered the id theft in 2013 and learned that she herself was posing as all of the banking officials I had been communicating with, it became clear that there was never a legitimate problem with Comcast. Any problem I had had been of her creation.

Her “I’ll buy you a present but you have to pay for it game”- In March 2013, shortly before Easter, my daughter, granddaughter, and I were back in PA where she supposedly had several work-related assignments. Before I put her and the baby on a plane to return to CA she went to a very expensive chocolate shop there and bought a lot of Easter candy forher husband, his family, and my husband and I. I was so touched by her thoughtfulness towards everyone. After I discovered the identity theft and got my legitimate bank statements, I found she had made the purchases with my money.
The month before, in February, my husband and I went to their house to celebrate my birthday. My husband had given her $100 in cash to shop for gifts for me from him since she was better at picking things I liked. I later discovered she kept the cash and charged the gifts to my bank account.
This same scenario played out for my Christmas and Mother’s Day gifts as well. Note: the gifts she gave me for Christmas were all from Macys. She told me she got them with her “employee discount.” My Mother’s Day presents were accompanied by a beautiful card she had made where she told me what a great mother I was and how much she loved me.
Her “I’ll buy other people things but you still have to pay for them game”.- This is another version of that game only in this version, she buys presents for other people and charges them to my bank account. Examples? For her husband’s birthday, she bought him a set of golf clubs costing nearly $700. For her dad's birthday she bought him a golf shirt and a gift card to a golf course. For Father’s day, she gave him another gift card and a beautiful handmade card telling him what a great father he was. For Christmas, she and I went to Sam’s club and she bought gift baskets for all of her great aunts and uncles from her, her husband, and their baby. I thought she was so thoughtful. Once again, after I discovered the identity theft and finally got my bank statements, I could see she had charged everything to my account.
Her “You entertain the baby while I check out game”- She was frequently shopping for things for the house, the baby, or herself. We would shop the mall schlepping from store to store until she found just the right thing. I just accompanied her since I had no money to buy anything. When it was time for her to check out, she would just say, “Would you mind entertaining the baby while I go pay for this?” I would wheel the baby around outside the store while she made her purchases. After discovering the identity theft, I could see these one purchase after another charged to my account .

The girl had an endless bag of tricks.

 

[Childofmine]

I actually spent a lot of time worrying about what she will have to go through once the police arrest her.

Jeanne, I so get what you wrote above. I think it shows how "normal" we are, what you said above.

Because we still care about someone we gave birth to, even though that person has chosen to do all kinds of things that we could never have imagined, and do not in any way support or condone, and would never even consider doing ourselves.

These are our CHILDREN. These are people we did every single thing in the world for so they could survive.

What a wonderful and miraculous system God created when he deigned to have people give birth to other people---tiny, helpless precious people---and through that love and support and nurturing---through the very food that they receive, all from us----they become more precious to us than gold. Than anything. Ever.

We learn how to give and love and go outside ourselves. It is the highest possible calling, I believe.

And then these people, who we nurtured and loved so completely, they turn on us like your daughter has done to you.

They steal from us and lie to us and use us like my son has done to me.

I know it's mental illness. I know it's addiction. And on some level, this is not them. But it is still them.

Do they feel remorse, guilt, shame? I don't know if your daughter has or not.

My son has never said he is sorry for all that he has done and all that he has put me through over the past years. I don't know if he is sorry or not. He is sweet and kind and loving, most of the time. Sometimes he is not, especially when he has decided I am going to do something for him, and I stand firm in my No.

I also know it's not about me. And your daughter's cold-eyed, calculating behavior is not really about you, Jeanne.

It is about them.

This morning, in an Al-Anon meeting, someone talked about how she doesn't know what it is to crave alcohol or drugs so completely that she would do ANYTHING to get them. And she has worked through all of her negative feelings over the years to today, when she feels compassion for that person.

I have flashes of tremendous compassion for my son. Especially when I don't have to bear frequent witness to his behavior and his thinking, and especially now, that I have taken lots of precautions to guard against his predatory ways.

I also have compassion for your daughter. For the life she must be living, because even if she doesn't feel remorse for what she has done, and is still smirking to herself about what she has "gotten away with", she has lost you, and she has lost her father, two people who loved her more than themselves. She will soon find out how rare that kind of love is, Jeanne.

I am just sorry for what she does not even possibly know or realize.

We can still love people who appear to be unlovable by all accounts. I want to still love my son. I don't want to stop, even though it hurts very badly, now, most of the time.

It sounds like you still love your daughter, and that is so understandable to me if you do.

We can give love freely, still, from a wide and vast distance, for years if necessary. A man in Al-Anon today talked about that. When he divorced his wife, his three sons' mother, after years of her alcoholism, they completely cut him out of their lives. They completely sided with their mother, and he never said to them that he left because of her alcoholism. He said she was a good mother and a good person, and he just wasn't going to do that, to them or to her.

So they cut him off completely. For years. Every Christmas, every birthday, every occasion, he wrote them letters, sent them cards, sent them gifts, and got no response. He worked hard in Al-Anon to accept their behavior and their unknowing, and he continued to love them, no matter what they did or said. He said he left it up to God, and God's time. He said he learned about patience and acceptance and compassion. And now, so many years later, his three sons have come back to him. He said they have a wonderful relationship today, all of them. He simply waited. And while he waited he loved them.

I love that he did that. That story is very inspiring to me. He was the bigger and better person, and in the end, he got back what he had lost.

I pray that happens to all of us on this board. Happy Father's Day.

 

[witzend]

And I thought it was bad when I went to the neighborhood delicatesin that me dad worked at when I was a kid, L played soccer with their kids, etc., in July and the owner asked me to cover the bounced checks & fees from the supplies that L had purchased to make Mother's Day dinner for me (I helped cook at my house & husband cleaned) with a rubber check. She KNEW she was broke & never said a word of warning to me. Instead she gave the owner - a friend of mine - excuses and I couldn't figure out why she was giving me the stink eye & finally asked ME to fix it! I still fume...

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[pasajes4]

When my son was sentenced, I knew it was necessary and was relieved that he would be far enough away for me not to be able to visit very often, part of me still grieved for him. Parenthood can be so complicated.

 

[pasajes4]

Where is her husband in all of this? How are the grands doing? If she is sentenced to jail time, how will it play out for the children? Will you or are you allowed a relationship with them? If you have already answered these questions, I apologize.

 

[jeanne in CA]

COM- I have to admit is am in a different place right now in terms of loving our daughter. Maybe I do but I can't feel it. I think I would find it easier if she were in the throws of some sort of addiction, but she is not. The fact that your son has never apologized to you is really sad but I would like to think that at some point he will. As for me, an apology from my daughter would not come close for the simple reason she cannot be believed. As for compassion, at this point I feel more compassion for your son than I do for her because by your own admisssion he can be sweet, kind, and loving. I cannot say the same for my daughter. Of course she had many many time where she projected those qualities but I now know they were simply the means to an end. Ultimately, I reserve most of my compassion for the parents who have tried so hard. At this point I cannot envision ever having a relationship with her because I can never envision trusting her.

Witzend- That is a perfect example of the kind of tricks our daughter was so proficcient at. It is at once so humilliating that you just want to die of embarrassment. I read your post and felt the embarrassment for you!

Pasajes4-I am sure it was awful seeing your son encarcerated but I totally understand the relief in knowing that far enough away that you are not plagued with guilt about not visiting often. It must be so difficult. We are noways near there yet given the length of time our case is taking.

As for her husband, he is a cop of all things. As far as we know he has had no involvement at all in her transgressions. If and when she is sent away, we hope he will allow us to help him with the children. If not, I can't bear to think about it. I have no doubt she has spun an unbelieveable tale to him about how awful we are and how if he attempts to contact us she will leave him. His world will absolutely crash to the ground once this all comes out.


I realize now that I saw her through a haze of love, not as who she really was, but as a mirage. Watching her interact with family and friends, and with those who seemed to be persecuting us with their errors and incompetence, I assumed she was the remarkable person that her actions implied. I projected onto her qualities he didn’t possess, qualities that only appeared to emanate from deep inside as a result of what we taught her as we raised her. She was fully aware of how much we loved her and used her skills in deception and trickery to obscure the reality of who she was. We thought we saw the truth about her when it was really only a reflection of what she projected. Here are a few examples:

The Gaslighting Game- She frequently told me I was losing my senses. For example, if my checkbook was not where I thought I left it, she claimed it had obviously never been there. If I followed up on something she told me about, she would claim she had never told me that. If I said I was missing a check from my checkbook she said I probably had ripped it out myself and didn’t realize it. Any time I would say I was simply overwhelmed with all the problems everywhere, she would tell me, “You are losing your mind and driving me crazy with you!” In March of last year when I was driving her and the baby to the PAt to return to CA, I told her I was so discouraged with the continual inability to get anything resolved anywhere, she rolled her eyes and said, “Oh my heavens, I am so sick of your drama.” At one point I even told her I felt like someone was gaslighting me. She said she had no idea what that was so I explained it to her. She said, “Well, obviously that’s not true.”
The “You need cash? I can get you cash” game. I would sometimes need cash just to have a few dollars in my wallet in case of emergencies. She was always so accommodating. She would give me the cash and I would then write her a check to repay her. It seemed odd that my bank never bounced my checks to her but when I mentioned it, she said, “Well, after all this time, they know all about the problems with your account, so I always ask for the same banker and they cash the check right away.” After I discovered the identity theft I learned that indeed a few of the checks I wrote her did bounce, but it was because she had already emptied out the account by that time.
The shower curtain- One afternoon shortly before Thanksgiving she and I were out with the baby and she was shopping for stuff for the house. I was describing to her about her dad’s recent cleaning frenzy in the downstairs bathroom and the fact that he had even thrown out the shower curtain. I told her the bathroom looked great but until I got my bank account straightened out I couldn’t even buy a new shower curtain. She looked at me with total exasperation and said, “Oh, for heaven’s sake, I will buy you a shower curtain!” I replied, “You absolutely will not. Things are bad enough, but I have not gotten to the point where I will have my own child buy me a shower curtain.” Once I discovered and put an end to the identity theft, I immediately went out and bought a shower curtain.
Lunches out- Often times when we were together in her town we would take the baby and go out for lunch. I looked forward to that a lot. Many times she would insist on paying. I hated that. It made me feel like a freeloader. I always argued that I wanted to pay for my own lunch even as I did the mental calculations of whether or not I had enough cash to do that. I knew I never had enough to pay for both lunches, but felt strongly I should at least pay for my own. I would argue that I didn’t come all the way out to Roseville so she could both help me with some of these messes and then even pay for my lunch. Her counter argument was that it had already cost me gas money to drive out there and I always helped her with things too. She usually won. Of course, I didn’t know at the time that the money she used to pay for our lunches was actually mine.

My daughter, the latte girl- every afternoon when we were together she insisted on stopping at Starbucks. I like Starbucks but could not understand her addiction. The drinks are expensive and she typically only drank half of what she ordered anyhow. Inevitably she would ask me if I wanted anything. Inevitably I would tell her no. For one thing, I had no money. For another, if she had already paid for lunch, I was determined not to feel even more like a freeloader by having her buy me a four-dollar grande, non-fat double caramel latte or whatever. Regardless of what I said, she would order me a drink. I would drink mine down to the last drop. She would drink part of hers and leave the rest in the cup holder of the car until she or her husband had to throw it out the next day. Even her husband complained that he didn’t understand why she would buy a drink and then waste half of it. Once I managed to obtain all my bank statements, I could see that I had been paying for the Starbucks.
Like I said, she had a very extensive bag of tricks. The psychiatrist I am consulting with says often these types of personalities are very resistent to change because the person feels there is absolutely nothing that needs changing. A very discouraging thought indeed.

Thanks for listening.

 

[recoveringenabler]

Jeanne, I'm among the bunch reading along............I thought you might get something out of reading the book, The Sociopath next door by Martha Stout PHD. It is quite interesting and your daughter fits the description well.

 

[jeanne in CA]

Lol, believe it or not I just ordered it from the library last week. It is due in shortly and I will read it asap. Thanks so much for the suggestion.

 

[pasajes4]

I can't imagine the pain and anger you must be feeling.