advice needed...sibling sexual abuse??

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by worriedmummy, Apr 27, 2010.

  1. worriedmummy

    worriedmummy Guest

    On friday my 3year old little girl came out and told me that my 8 year old son had kissed her private area and touched her, also he had put his penis in her face..

    My firt reaction was total shock, I contacted an abuse helpline and they advised that I contact Social Services..

    After speaking to Social Services of Friday, they told me not to mention this to my son, carry on as 'normal' until he has been spoken to by a profesional and to keep the children apart at night and not leave them unsupervised..

    Fortunatly my sister looked after my son over the weekend to remove him from the house..I feel so sad, and so worried as to what will happen next..

    Knowbody returned my call on Monday morning, and after several calls to social services I was promised a call today..I recieved a call today and was told to expect a call tomorrow..I think this is terrible that they can leave a family, trying to get help, trying to do what is 'right' and handle this in the best possible way for EVERYONE..

    Against their advice I spoke with my son last night, there was alot of tears, alot of half truths, but with my sisters help he has admited that this happened..he has sworn that it was only this one occation and that it will never happen again..I really want him to get some profesional help, I am finding it so hard to even look/talk to him, but he is ONLY 8, and he is still my little boy..

    He has no access to the internet and we do not have sky TV/adult videos..I am a single parent family, there are no men that he is left alone with...He has not got friends houses that he goes to, he is not the best at mixing with children his own age..Although he is very intellegent, loving and kind, I would have never have thought he would do this to the little sister he adores..

    Obviously they can no longer share a room or be left alone together, and this breaks my heart..I am completely lost, and am finding this all such a struggle..

    Has anyone been through something similar? I understand from the research Ive done on the internet that it is quite common..but he is ONLY 8! not 12/13/14..
  2. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I unfortunately adopted a boy who molested and more my two younger kids. I have a few questions to ask that will help.

    1/Is he your biological son?

    2/Was he ever sexually molested himself? Many times kids act out when they have been abused. Is there somebody who may have hurt him? The most common reason for kids to sexually act out is because it happened to them and they are repeating what happened.

    3/Does he have any other unusual behaviors? Any diagnoses?

    4/What are your family dynamics? Does Dad get visitiation? If not, was Dad abusive? Any other "funny" relatives.

    My adopted son came to us at 11 and I have found that often (not always) when a child complains of abuse once, it has usually happened more than once. The kids, however, even as young as three are often afraid to tell us because the abuser makes threats, such as "I'll kill you all if you tell." I do not know if this is your situation. I'm just telling you what I learned from social services and when my two other children were in therapy. Also, unfortunately, kids always say "I just did it once." It may or may not be true.

    I think you need to put an alarm on your son's door so that if he leaves his room at night you know, and can monitor him so that he goes only to the bathroom and not to his sister's room. This isn't something to take chances with. This was not two kids playing doctor. He did this without your daughter's consent and I'd take it very seriously. I'm not sure it's common with kids that far apart in age and the fact that he did it against her will.

    I'm sorry you are going through this. I do know how it is. I wish I didn't. in my opinion he needs treatment right away if he isn't getting any. And it should focus on this issue.

    Welcome to the board.
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2010
  3. DaisyFace

    DaisyFace Love me...Love me not

    Hello and welcome!

    A few thoughts....

    First, they asked you not to question him about it because usually the FIRST time a small child talks about something like this is the ONLY time you have a chance to really get the truth. They wanted someone skilled to ask the right questions to make sure they got an accurate picture of what may or or may not have actually happened.

    So DO let them know that you already spoke to him about it. Further retellings are likely to muddle and change the story.

    Secondly, eight years old is a bit too old for brothers/sisters to be sharing a bedroom. As young as eight, hormones are beginning to stir a bit and you're going to have some natural curiosity as it is. You don't want to make it worse.

    Hopefully, you will get this all sorted out soon and your family can get some help...
  4. worriedmummy

    worriedmummy Guest

    1, he is my biological son.

    2, I am a single parent..I do not think he has been abused, I have questioned him about this and he has said noboby has ever touched him inapropriatly..He has not been left alone with any men/babysitters etc

    3, He is a very initelegent boy..and can appear older than other children his age..he has always had a problem with mixing with children of a similar age and has been struggling with making friends at school..Other than that, he is a good kid..

    4, He has never met his father...we split up when I was pregnant..He has a lovely close family aroud him..aunties/grandmother/great grandmother...

    My daughter has told me that it happened son has said it has only happened once..My son has said he will never do it again, and is very sad knowing that I know as well as his nan and aunty..He has said that he knew what he did was wrong, and he doesnt know why he wanted to do this..I have told him (and he agrees) that we need to talk with someone about this..I am waiting for help from social services..Its been 5 days and im still waiting for some advice!!

    My daughter is very socable/happy little girl..She loves school, playing with her brother and family life..Whilst im aware this could not be an icolated insodent I really do hope that is is.. Even since friday when I spoke with my daughter she has been fine since..I dont think he has hurt her in any way..something happened and the next day she told me..She knew this 'touching' wasnt right, even at 3 years old she knows that her 'privates' are not to be touched by anyone.

    I am so minute I feel so angry at my son the next I just want to pick him up and give him a hug..

  5. timer lady

    timer lady Queen of Hearts

    My twins came from an abusive bio home. We had the same issue with my son towards my daughter so I understand your fears, your concerns, your frustration over not receiving immediate help, etc, etc, etc,....

    Having said that, stop the questioning - let a professional lead this. Make sure you document anything unusual that you see between your children; any nightmares out of your 3 y/o, any unusual behaviors. In the meantime, while you are waiting for help start looking for an experienced therapist & psychiatrist in the area of trauma & abuse. One for your son & for your daughter.

    Children can & will be exploring their sexuality ~ I wonder if he saw something he shouldn't on tv or in another venue.

    My children cannot live in the same home ~ it's more than they can handle. We are finally being able to be together as a family.

    I'm sending you my prayers for guidance & wisdom - for strength while you get to the bottom of this situation.

    Please don't panic - your children will react to that. And it's not time to panic anyway. Time will tell what's going on or not going on.
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2010
  6. busywend

    busywend Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I am so sorry for your pain. I agree that they both should seek counseling until the counselor decides they are dealing OK with what has happened.
    Do not let your guard down. They must not share a room - I do not think they are allowed to legally anyway after a certain age.

    HUGS! You can do this!
  7. helpme

    helpme New Member

    Oh, man, I don't even know what I'd do if I had to go at it all alone. You gotta have a ton of strength that's for sure.

    You can see my post a bit back on "sex crimes->" and hear some of my story.

    I'm still in the "let me digest this" phase about it all. So, I am not much help.
    I'm going to follow timer lady's advice and find a therapist in the area of
    trauma and abuse.

    I've been following timer lady's advice of
    "Time will tell what's going on or not going on..", but I think time
    is telling me what is happening and how difficult child is, and my mother bear instincts
    went into effect and I protected, but it's hard to believe my little boy turned out
    this way.

    I wish you the best, I'm sending prayers and hugs.
  8. Mamaof5

    Mamaof5 Guest

    As another poster said - there's a reason why they asked you not to talk to him about it. It's not only for the fact that the story gets muddled as it's retold. It's because children honest are so suggestive mind wise that things like projection onto another person happen, no cognitive memory skills in identified suspected persons involved and associative memory to others that are familiar to them rather than the "abuser". Although, it seems their stories match up almost to the "T"

    I'm not saying the above to be a B!tch or mean spirited. I'm a survivor of childhood sexual assault (age 9) and suppressed it until age 14. There's also suppression issues, the mind of a child just can't compute with the sensory stimuli of abuse like that and a lot of suppression and denial happens because they can't emotionally process it at all. If SS isn't helping you suss out a family center or a psychiatric yourself that deals with children and sexual assault. Do you have a victim's service center or something similar? Seek out the help that SS is dragging their feet about and then have that help you placed yourself deal with SS to get other services that may be needed. Pro to pro usually gets you further faster than parent to pro. Your local police department should have the Victim's Services or a Crisis Center number for you to call. Even Kids Help Line International might have some resources for you locally. Be proactive about it and then come at SS showing them you are being proactive and serious about this situation.
  9. worriedmummy

    worriedmummy Guest

    If social services have not arranged for something to happen by tomorow I will go to the doctors..If they had explained why I should not say anything then perhaps I wouldnt have..I just want to get to the bottom of this, and after 4 days of still no advice I decided I needed to speak with my son..I have done ALOT of reading on the internet, but there is so much mixed advice and confusion over this subject..

    I did ring two support helplines..but neither were any help..

    thank you all for your kind words..
  10. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    The last poster brought up something important. First off, make sure you find somebody who understands sexual molestation, even if it turns out it was just one time. Secondly, my daughter doesn't remember the abuse that happened to her. She blocked it out. This is common. She is in counseling in case it suddenly overloads...she has a caring person she can and has talked to about everything and anything. I don't think my son remembers much either. Kids block out any sort of sexual contact, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. That's why the victim often can not give a straight story...they kind of remember and they kind of don't. We took both kids to a pediatrician who does sexual abuse see if the kids were hurt in any way. My daughter and son both had suffered some "more" than just molestation and we were shattered and shocked too. It's never easy.

    Make sure you focus on your daughter as much as your son. Even while the sexual stuff was going on, my daughter (who was about 4 at the time) acted fine. She either didn't remember after the times it happened or was just acting fine on auto-pilot. Although I don't think your panicking does any good, and agree that this is the time to keep a level head, you also need to be open-minded for any stories that may come out. Seuxal curiosity does not mean a boy so much older than his baby sister acts out on her. At least, this is what we were told by both the experts and CPS. If it makes you feel better, both my daughter and son are very well adjusted, I think because they got a lot of professional, specialized therapy early on. The boy who did it...the 11 year old...I don't know what happened to him. He was taken from the home after that and we didn't really want to know what was going on with him after that. But he had always acted like the perfect child to our faces.

    With your son's social deficits, I'm wondering if he is on the autism spectrum. I can see a kid with Aspergers maybe not understanding that this is very inappropriate. Has he ever been evaluated? (((Hugs))) Been there/done that/have the shirt.
  11. DaisyFace

    DaisyFace Love me...Love me not

    Yes they did kind of leave you hanging without any information. And they should know that Mom's are worriers. Not hearing anything always makes the worrying worse...

    on the other hand--they may not have said anything because they may not have wanted you to worry un-necessarily over a worst-case scenario.

    MWM makes a very good point about a child with Aspergers or a developmental delay not really understanding that this was not appropriate. He may have touched his sister without "intent"--if you know what I mean.
  12. worriedmummy

    worriedmummy Guest

    To 'help me' sorry, new to this site and cant find your original post, only the replies..can you post a link?

    I do not think my son has Aspergers etc..although he has never been tested..Its something else I can bring up when we eventually do get to speak with someone..I will insist that we are refered to a specialist in this area, I do not want this to be handled badly and it to be detremental to either children..

    I have tried not to panic, and have carried on as normal school runs/after school clubs/dinner etc..I am handling this in the best way I can..There has been no shouting or yelling or threats of any kind..My son knows what he has done is wrong and has spent the evening upstairs reading books/watching tv, he is also aware that we are waiting for someone to talk to..I have not talked with him any further since monday night regarding what has happened..

    I have also started to write down any odd/unusual matter how small and will take this to who-ever we are refered to..

    Unfortunatly we are in a 2 bedroom house, I have seperated them and will be sharing the bunk bed with my daughter.. I am in a Council House, the age where children have to have a seperate room is when the oldest is 10 years old..

    Im sorry to hear what happened to your children Midwestmom, and it is reasuring to know that your children are settled and recieving the help they need.

    I feel very dissapointed in how Social Services has handled this..Frustrated is an understatement..

    Tomorow is another day I guess..Thank you again for all the advice and replies, it helps to feel not totaly alone in this situation..

    Has anyone had one of their own children do this to a sibling? if so, what was the outcome?
  13. helpme

    helpme New Member

    here's the link

    as far as siblings, most people here do have multiples and even though they might be
    going through they might not have this same problem as you and I, their problems
    may include drugs, sex, and / or illegal activities. You will rarely see a post that doesn't
    have or show the

    effects on siblings or family or others,
    that doesn't have some enabler, ex, other sibling, grandparents,
    doesn't have some stupid laws or court issues or child protection agency or school issues,
    the love, pain, and frustration a parent feels for their child.

    reading, supporting, and following posters and their families here will make you laugh,
    cry, anger, frustrated, and so forth. everyone seems pretty used to it though, since
    we are all used to the mixture of emotions involved with difficult children and parenting as a whole.

    whoever put this place into action, the people who run it and all, as well as the people
    helping each other deserve a standing ovation, worldwide.
  14. JJJ

    JJJ Active Member

    Here is a thread from the archives:

    I would get both children into therapy ASAP. I would also write down your safety plan (how to ensure that they are never unsupervised together - take daughter in bathroom with you when you need to go, etc).
  15. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    I haven't read all these repsonses (sorry) so I might be bringing up a point already covered. But if you're sure there has been no exposure to abuse first hand or been abused himself, rremember that at that age it could be a kid a school telling about stuff like this and other young kids are hearing it and getting the idea to try it at home- so your son might not be re-enacting his own abuse (that never occurred) but the abuse of a kid he knows at school and has heard about. I think DSS should ask questions about that, too.
  16. Marguerite

    Marguerite Active Member

    A point I want to emphasise here on the possibility of this boy having experienced abuse - PLEASE be aware, abuse can happen from other children. After all, the concern here is a young boy behaving inappropriately, isn't it? So if he can, so can others. And much worse. This boy may have just done this the once, but he may also have experienced abuse at school or somewhere similar.

    easy child was 5 when she was molested in the school playground, right under the noses of very vigilant teachers. The abuser was a 7 year old boy she had known since she was a baby. They had been in the same child care centre. He was always the boy with the quiet mean streak, the one who would ride his dinky over the babies' fingers then just look at you blankly if you scolded him. Then he would wait until you weren't watching and then do it again. His dad was a large man, always smiling and fairly jolly. The dad served on a few committees in the child care centre and also at the school. I remember the father being very vocal against the idea of kids as young as ours needing sex education, or lessons in how to be safe.
    easy child didn't tell me about the abuse for 2 years. When she told me, she gave little detail and wouldn't say any more. She was distraught if the subject was brought up and only told me on condition we would never talk about it. I got her into counselling but it was useless. She has since blocked it out although she knows intellectually that something happened.

    What easy child told us - the boy got her behind some large playground equipment and removed her pants. He told her he as going to have sex with her and that it would hurt. He also said that if she told anyone, he would send his father round to our house to kill me (her mother) by running me over with his lawnmower. She was terrified for me as she told, scared that somehow this boy would know she had told even though neither of them were at that school any more.

    I am certain that boy was abused, probably by his father (hence using the father as a figure to threaten with). But he was out of our reach then. Plus there was no way we could tell the police because easy child was terrified of involving them and would not have cooperated with them.

    Since then I've known of other cases (different schools, unrelated) of kids in Kindergarten being molested by older boys. It's really nasty and it doesn't get taken seriously by schools when you tell them (although it was in easy child's case - they began to insist on the protective behaviour classes and to boost their playground vigilance beyond merely watching the gates for strangers coming in).

    In this case - get a professional counsellor involved, someone who understands how to question correctly. Let the counsellor deal with it. I would also get someone to assess the boy in case there is some underlying social immaturity such as Asperger's. It may well have been not intended as harm, but it can be a symptom that indicates a need to check things a bit more.

    It could be something as simple as klmno suggests - the boy hearing about an incident from another kid - or it could be an indication of his own abuse experience. But if you let a professional counsellor handle it and CPS eventually get back to you wanting to do their job (belatedly) then the professional counsellor will have material they can share with CPS. A sort of "here is what you would have done, here is the response I got."

  17. worriedmummy

    worriedmummy Guest

    Do you think it is possible that his 'issues' have just grown in time? Rather than having heard something/ it possible to just be born this way/brain wired a bit 'wrong'?

    From a very young age my son has been facinated with girls..At the age of 2 he used to want to be a girl, and told me this hundresd of times..At any opertunity he would wear dresses, wigs and high shoes..On one occation I found him to have my knickers on underneath his clothes..and have found knickers under his bed..He refused to play with boys at nursary and still struggles around boys at school/park etc..

    He has since grown out of wearing girls clothes/underwear ( but I did catch him with a tu-tu on last week and nothing else) and has had a couple of friends that are boys at school over the last year..Although he has experienced some bullying and I have been into the school regarding this and the bullies have stopped..

    When I was pregnant with my son I found out his father had sexually assulted both my younger sisters (one a minor). This got taken to court and he was found not guilty..My son has NEVER known about this, this happened when I was pregnant..The father has since emegrated and he has NEVER or will NEVER be alowed any sort of access to my son..

    I cant help but feel that this was 'always' going to happen..I have dissmissed these feelings as I believed that there is no way that such a thing could be hereditary..

    My son has always wanted to dress my daughter in the outfits he has chosen, plat her hair before school and play 'her' doll games with her..I have insisted before that he leaves her alone to play sometimes as she can get frustrated with him always in her hair! He can be rather bossy and tease her constantly..And I have done my bast to stop this but it appears to have got worse over the last while..

    I have thought that maybe he was/or will be gay later in life..but this didnt bother me as I would always support and love my children regardless of their sexuality..

    I AM NOT dissmissing the fact something could have happened/been seen/spoken about..I am just trying to work out what has happened to make him do this to his little sister..

    Thank you again for all the replies..(please excuse my terrible spellings!)

    Im STILL waiting for a call from Social Services..I left ANOTHER message at 9am this morning..
  18. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    Yes, some of it can be "hard-wired"- genetic, in my humble opinion, and there are things that can inadvertantly be relayed to a child even if you didn't tell him about his father directly. I think you need to get this kid into intensive counseling ASAP and make sure the therapist is specialized in this area and knows the facts you just wrote here.
  19. Fran

    Fran Former desparate mom

    You are in such a difficult situation. Your emotions are all over the place and understandably so. You are shocked, outraged, anger, embarrassment and terrified.
    In addition, not only do you have to deal with the victim, you still love and need to parent the perpetrator. Regardless of why he did this, he is still an 8 yr old child who needs to be loved, protected and taught. He did the wrong thing and did not respect the boundaries of another more vulnerable person but it does not mean he is a throw away. On the other hand, you can not dismiss his choice of behavior easily.

    From the your daughters side, she needs you to protect her and love her. She will probably forget about it for a while but she will remember when she gets into puberty. These things do not go away, unfortunately. The concerns for her well being need to be a priority.

    At this point, not enough is known about how long this has been happening.
    Once you absorb this information and process it(getting past the hurricane of emotions) you can gain a little more balanced insight and plan for your family. He is not a devil and he is not an angel. He is an 8yr old flawed human.
    Do your research- talk openly with experts. Get second and third opinions and do the best you can to love and protect both children from the fallout of an unnatural relationship between siblings.

    My heart goes out to you. It is not a comfortable place to be.
  20. Marguerite

    Marguerite Active Member

    When you get your son assessed, mention the possible gender identity issues. Some of it could simply be curiosity or similar, or it could actually be a gender identity issue.

    In my opinion (based on reading and study) this isn't necessarily genetic, but it is probably congenital, meaning they're born with it. One strongly held theory states that it happens due to fluctuating hormone levels in utero; when the levels fluctuate, how long and how much can change the way the fetus's brain responds to certain hormonal triggers. Homosexuality can be one facet of this (and there is a spectrum of sexual orientation as well as sexual 'intensity') and also possibly gender identity dysmorphia.

    But I'm not an expert. I'm also concerned that it is possible for some parents to pigeonhole their child as definitely gender identity dysmorphia, when actually the child hasn't really settled on this. Any move to definitely and finally assign one or other gender to a child while under age is very controversial and really, it is open to problems as a child risks decisions being made in childhood that cannot be undone. Some gender identity dysmorphia people (I won't say "sufferers" since many of them see themselves as a third gender, intersex) are very happy with ambiguous gender and sexuality. This can be a lot more complex than mere homosexuality.

    I wouldn't go too far down this road just yet - just toss the history in there as possibly of relevance, but don't lock anything in place nor allow anyone to.

    A cousin of mine grew up with a religious Anglican father. My cousin later became Roman Catholic and was really overboard with it. He then married a Jewish lady, had three children and after ten years he divorced his wife. He then took up a homosexual lifestyle. In other words - his entire life he went from one lifestyle to another and in each case he was enthusiastically whatever-he-was at the time.

    Sometimes you never really know for sure. I know my cousin used to really drive his mother nuts, but she loved him anyway.