After Narcissistic Abuse Link

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
This is entirely different from us. The worst threats for us, are those that we learned to do to ourselves. They may even seem like the best things about us.

Yes.

I love this post.

This is entirely different from us. The worst threats for us, are those that we learned to do to ourselves. They may even seem like the best things about us.

Docility, hope, loving natures, nurturing, acceptance, compliance, imagination, humor, fantasy. Even a certain femininity, that looks like vulnerability, slight confusion, self-deprecation, deference, the oh so attractive humor of making fun of ourselves, of putting ourselves down. Oh how attractive that has been. YUCK.

We may have been prototypical females, so as to not threaten everybody. And completely defanged and confined ourselves and our power.

Oh how we may muzzle our angry voices. Strident and oh so unattractive. Out. Damn SPOT.

I think we arrived into adulthood eunuchs. Completely castrated females. By ourselves.

Oh, Copa. This means ~ that we can see it ~ means we are undoing it.

Sacred ground.

I would say not eunuchs. I would say we were taught that any power was grounds for an attack by the Witch Mother. That any power, any value (writing ability; the capacity to think, even) was where they would destroy us. Throughout our lives then Copa, we will have never once laid claim to any strength. Not beauty. Not sexuality. (How well does this fit with beautiful young females at the mercy of the narcissists of the world.)

They did that to us, Copa.

But more and more, they are just who they are. We are reclaiming ourselves. All these good and strengthening parts of who we are that we were afraid to access, Copa...these too will come through now, legitimate.

I love this post.

I could not have thought it on my own.

Thank you, Copa.

I am feeling these new ways of feeling, a little bit. When I say I have been sitting with the feelings. But Copa, I haven't been able to name the feelings. Or to anticipate or shape these new awakenings.

It always seems we must have come into full repossession of self.

And then, we burst through into another reality altogether.

This was lovely, Copa.

I feel incredibly ~ like, I had no idea that is where we were going next.

Good work, Copa.

:O)

Yay for us.

***

Really, I do not like Hillary Clinton. I believe it is because she represents the me, that dangerous me, that I cut off. As does my sister. Except that is far more confusing and conflicted. Because I hate her and she hates me. Or is it ourselves we hate?

I think Hilary is alot like the sisters.

Copa, I think you do not hate the sister. You hate yourself for her. I found legitimacy in hating myself for my sister through fully accepting the pseudo mom role. My sister hates me because and somehow, whatever the because was and however obvious it was that my sister is who she is, I just kept circling through that same morass. That it was okay for someone we know to hate us to tell us they love us and stab us in the back and we think that is fine.

I feel badly for me.

I should have run away from home when I was five, like I did. But I had nowhere to go. I still would have been better off.

What if Dolly had never escaped the brutal owners, Copa? what if she had not risked everything, even being hit by a car, to get away.

Who would poor Dolly think she was, today.

Cedar
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
Cedar, if you would be so kind, would you give us references for the one or two readings in the past few days, those most elucidating and helpful to you to understand the residual effects in yourself, of having been parented by a narcissist?

I did not bookmark them Copa, but if you google recovery narcissistic family of origin, so much good material will come up. I will try to find some of the sites I explored and will list them here for all of us when I do. Today, I came across these:

https://soulreclaim.wordpress.com/

http://blog.melanietoniaevans.com/how-to-transform-your-family-of-origin-wounds-part-1/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-legacy-distorted-love/201105/the-narcissistic-family-tree

The sites I found were more relevant to me than what is coming up today. I can't remember what I searched for. Something to do with recovery from malignant narcissism, maybe, or with healthy response. I don't want to be in that place anymore where I need to know what happened. I want to know how to think about it, and how to recover myself.

But I can't find them, today.

Huh.

***

Though I don't understand how whether someone else acknowledges our sensitivity (or our degree of sensitivity in relation to them) has a place in the process of recovering our strength, that concept seems to resonate for New Leaf, so I included this one that came up in my search today, for her:

http://1solutionfocusedcoaching.com/2013/01/10/sensitive-children-in-the-narcissistic-home/

Cedar
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
I am reading "The Highly Sensitive Person" and discovering many things. I posted a thread on exploring sensitivity.
That is my quest while looking back and understanding my family dynamics. I feel that if I learn how to embrace that part of me that was looked upon as a fault, I can grow stronger.

Yes I agree, Leafy.

Holding ourselves with compassion begins with refusing to hold ourselves in contempt. It is very hard, requiring bravery and courage, to explore this stuff.

You are being brave, Leafy.

:O)

***

Do you believe it could be that your family fastened on a part of you that you felt badly about because you felt badly about it? Could you have cut that part off from the rest of you in a effort to save yourself ~ a child's effort?

The question might be why you believed that anything ~ sensitivity or anything else about you or about your siblings or about anyone at all ~ could be a wrong "thing". Humans are composed of so many things. We are like symphonies in that way.

Cedar
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
The interesting thing is that initially, we felt as they intended for us to feel about the things they intentionally did, those dirty rats.
Cedar, I still do feel the way she intended me to feel. Humiliated. That somebody (she, my sister) could, would do that to me. I have not gotten over it. It still horrifies me as much as it would have if somebody violated me. Perhaps even more.
We never saw the patterns, the triggers for contempt or love or shame.
See, Cedar, I did. I always did see the patterns. But my screams to myself were to some extent mute. I give myself the credit that I stayed away. But I did not look away. I had no mechanism to stop the train wreck video, playing it over and over again in my head.

Like PTSD.

As if I expect myself to have done something affirmative. Like what? Killed her? An honor killing? Yes, maybe it is that. Maybe she triggers the rage and the body memory of what it was for me as a child. Towards my parents, either my mother or father. And I transferred it to her. And that emotion, the internalized rage and self-contempt never has been discharged.

COPA
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
I just kept circling through that same morass. That it was okay for someone we know to hate us to tell us they love us and stab us in the back and we think that is fine.
This piece fascinates me. The kind of train wreck fascination. (Oh. I have to remind you again for the 86th time about how looking outside the Amtrak train, I saw a white pick up truck explode in front of my face, which the train had hit. Which then turned into a crime scene, and we were frozen on the tracks for 5 hours. Poor man.)
I should have run away from home when I was five, like I did. But I had nowhere to go. I still would have been better off.
You know, Cedar. I ran away from home at 5, too. I ran away from kindergarten. I remember like it was yesterday. I remember how angry my mother was but I remember not one bit of the feelings and what may have provoked it.
What if Dolly had never escaped the brutal owners, Copa? what if she had not risked everything, even being hit by a car, to get away.
What a terrible thought. You know I gave Dolly to M because my son kept getting mad at her because she was not house trained. He brought her to his house. She loves him best still.
Who would poor Dolly think she was, today.
Road kill. Prey.

The most marvelous transformation she made was into an aggressor, a protector, an Alpha Female, in her own mind. She has never hurt anybody. But she came to glory in her own power. That is the best thing.

Do you know she gets mad at M? When he tells her to go back to her bed, that there are no more caresses. She will go to her bed, and turn her back and head to us. On strike. There is a word in Spanish that I love, "Mula." M says it to me, too, when I am mad with my nose in the air, that kind of mad. So Dolly gets Mula and so do I.

COPA
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
screeching that she walks with the Lord. That He may heal our relationship but that she is done.
I am trying to figure this out.

This is like when my sister wrote the letter to her then 86 year old mother to tell her she had gotten deadly breast cancer, that it was my mother's fault, and my fault, and that we are toxic to her in every way. Then, why write the letter?

Does not the letter itself belie the truth of things? I mean who is the perpetrator here? This duplicity.

Your sister saying essentially, Fxx You, Cedar. I am through. But if the Lord wants to mend YOU, go for it, Lord, but I'm out of its. She (Cedar) is a :censored2:-in piece of :censored2:. But of course Lord, IF YOU SEE FIT to resurrect garbage, go for it.

I mean, look at the hostility of this, shrouded by THE LORD. This is blasphemy, Cedar. She is putting herself on equal footing (or above) the deity. I mean, what absolute grandiosity. And sadism. Covert sadism. On both sisters part.
That is such a lonely choice.

To know there is something not right, but to justify it, rather than to address it.
How is it lonely, Cedar? She is above THE LORD. She may say she walks with him, on equal footing, but I think she feels above him.

She is saying, I have no more to give here. If you choose to clean up this mess, go for it, but I am out of here. She is condescending to THE LORD. Cedar, you do not have a chance (unless you have some secret connections you have yet to disclose.)
The sisters may have been groomed to be the grandiosity addicted abuser's primary Source of Supply. Think of the triangle that makes, Copa.
I have been wondering the past few days just what made my mother ally with my sister. I mean, why choose her, over me?

My sister is two-faced. My sister is untrustworthy. She is selfish. Why choose her?
When I am sweet, trustworthy, selfless? It does not make sense, Cedar.

I know I removed myself from the equation, but did not my mother see any of it?
the Sister places herself in the ranks of the dismissive nobility. Happily replete; sated, for the moment.

How she must have raged Copa, as her constructs fell.

None of which matters to us, really. The sisters will choose as they do. The question for us is why we believe them.
I asked M what my sister looked like when she emerged into the hospital lobby, after she and her daughters left my mother's hospital room. *He had descended earlier, to give us privacy. (Please M, don't go. We do not need privacy, as I grabbed at his leg.)

He said she looked upset. (That was after my mother had told her--get out of my medical care. You promised.) Oh, how good that made me feel, that at least she looked upset. I mean, I want to see her sweat for a change.

Instead of a circus master of ceremonies with her whip and her snarl. As I always climbed back into my cage. For appearances. And then I sneaked out to walk the high wire and dance on horses.

That is exactly as it is. I let her have her whip and white uniform and stand on the box to control the 3 rings.

While I go off and execute high wire stunts. In secret.
All Dolly needed really, was someone to trust; someone who believed she was good, and to teach her she could cherish herself and learn to relish curiosity and uncertainty and facing into the Wind.

Like us.
Yes. How I wish she was healthy, still. So she could keep pulling off high wire stunts. Formerly abused dog tumbles on the high wire, with her mistress dancing the tango beside her.
I feel incredibly ~ like, I had no idea that is where we were going next.
If you had guessed, where would we have been going, Cedar?

I never know what is happening next. I wonder if this is a defense. In fact, I am never even aware we are going anywhere. Maybe that is why I do not remember why I ran away from home. And deny that I did. I told myself I just wanted to see where the other little girl lived. Her mother called the school when we showed up.
I think Hilary is alot like the sisters.
Yes. There was a moment in the last town hall debate. She was being grilled about taking all the money for speeches for Goldman Sachs. She said, "well that was what they offered." And there was a freeze frame of her face and body. There was the most infinite contempt. And fury. She is a sister, Cedar.
Copa, I think you do not hate the sister. You hate yourself for her
Yes.

How I feel defeated by myself. How hopeless this feels. What is this hopelessness about? Where I kill myself off. I am doing it again on my thread. Who is this display of self-sacrifice for? It is not an act. But it must be.
That it was okay for someone we know to hate us to tell us they love us and stab us in the back and we think that is fine.
Somehow the key is here.

I am going some kind of parody, some kind of theater, where my body slumps over, and there is a knife in my back, with blood on the floor.

But the villain is hidden. The perpetrator. There are others in the general area. My son. But who is the criminal here? What is the crime?

We only see the victim, with blood streaming onto the floor. She says it is self-inflicted. But the angle of the knife? Not possible.

This is a murder mystery. And I have not a clue (not) who done it. Except I do. But then I don't.

COPA
 
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Copabanana

Well-Known Member
Do you think Copa, that had you and M not come in to Dolly's life, she would have grown vicious as the years passed, and more fearful, instead of more loving?
This is such an interesting question.

Because my sister became the vicious Dolly and in time, I became the more loving. (It took my whole life to get there, in dog years.)

While I can think in terms of all kinds of psychological dirty words (diagnoses), honestly, I do not know why life happens this way.

I do not as do many people on CD believe it is genetic. I believe it is partly a decision.

Which completely defies nearly all of the thinking among experts (except the Peter Bremmer type) who speak in terms of determining influences. And I have not a leg to stand on, except wanting to believe this, that we can decide our fates. Because, truly, that is what it is about--our destinies.

And I would hate to believe I had not one iota of control over that.

I believe I did.

As did Dolly, too. When I approached her cage she was such a mess. Her body was ravaged and emaciated. I cannot convey how horrible she looked. Except think about the TV commercials that beg for money to save abandoned and abused dogs. That was Dolly. The poster child.

And what did her abused and battered self do when I spoke to her? She wagged her tail. And after coaxing she came to the door and she allowed me to reach through and caress her. I believe that was a choice. And everything in her destiny was decided from that. And my destiny, too.

Because without Dolly I would never have M. Nor, he me.

I do not know if I told you before, but our romance was due to Dolly. We, all 3 of us (son, too), by accident poisoned Dolly with her mange medicine, and Dolly went into convulsions *she was living with M.

He called me in the middle of the night to take them to the emergency veterinary hospital. I was beside myself, with guilt and fear. Dolly had become blind. And after that night, for whatever reason, M declared his wanting to take care of us, the four of us. Dolly and I and Stella and my son. And he did.

At the beginning of the trauma with Dolly he had no such idea or intention. By the next day he had arrived there. The turning point, I think, was when Dolly came out of her kennel at the hospital, tail wagging and able to see our faces. She had forgiven us. And there began our lives together.

COPA
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
We only have choice in what we do with what life hands us. We can be come angry, or we can remain cautiously open. We can give up, or we can continue the fight. We do not control what life gives us, only our response.
 

New Leaf

Well-Known Member
Yes I agree, Leafy.

Holding ourselves with compassion begins with refusing to hold ourselves in contempt. It is very hard, requiring bravery and courage, to explore this stuff.
You are being brave, Leafy.
Thank you Cedar and thank you for the article. It has some key points that I will be able to use on my quest.

Do you believe it could be that your family fastened on a part of you that you felt badly about because you felt badly about it? Could you have cut that part off from the rest of you in a effort to save yourself ~ a child's effort?
I do not think I knew enough then at the beginning to feel badly about it, I was so young. It was just me.
I think I began to feel badly about it because it was the focus of the conflict. That's the way I remember it Cedar, then it became that question of who is the liar. Of course I couldn't cut it off, I tried, but there was no way I couldn't react to what was going on. It was mean and hurtful. I was like a play thing to my sibs, something to toy with.

In my work with children I see this over and again. People look at kindergarteners as so cute, so innocent, with some of them, there is nothing further from the truth. They are little people with pretty well formed personalitys. Some are manipulative little tyrants, those darn rascals. It is amazing what some of these kids stoop to. I see a pattern of dominant kids picking on the shy more reserved ones, kids acting out, bullying and outright lying to get out of trouble.
Working with kids helped me to see what I went through.

I think my sis was very convincing of her "innocence". Her bullying was done covertly, the only witness was my brother. They were allies. He lied for her. From a very young age, we played outside unsupervised.
Sis would bully, I would cry, an "inquisition" from mom of sorts would ensue, and I was outnumbered. I was the liar, it was my "imagination". So the focus was on my reaction, not the bullying. The bullying was denied by my sibs and I think my mom believed them. I was labeled from then on. I was the "problem" child. "Don't be such a sissy, leafy."
I was easily drawn in to my sisters feigned friendship over and over.
I do have some pleasant family memories, but most of my growing up is overshadowed by this dynamic. It was unrentless.

It is denied still, shoved back into the past under lock and key with my FOO. That in of itself can be hurtful. So, yes, I am being very brave, because I am standing up and saying what happened to me was wrong. My folks should have seen what was happening. They didn't.

I was repeatedly told over and again that I was just too sensitive, while my brother and sister would wait until they were away from my parents view to leer and cackle at me triumphantly. I would retreat to my room and vow to myself not to play with my sibs, but I was made to go outside.
This would put me into hyper vigilance.
Sis had a way of charming me into trusting her which always turned out badly. I was the victim. This was not "normal" sibling rivalry. It was torture. When I told on them, I was then subjected to the " stop crying you are too sensitive, get tough" talk, more secret leering and teasing from my sibs, followed by an onslaught of ramped up bullying "for telling".
There was no way out.
So I fell into perfectionism, trying every way I could to be the perfect child, perfect grades. It was never good enough. Nothing I did made it stop.
The bullying continued on into my pre teens and teens, instead of my brother as a sidekick, sis recruited her friends. They pulled more than a few pranks to embarrass and shame me.
I was not allowed to speak with her at school, or any of her friends.
I did make friends of my own, I was not sad and crippled outwardly, but I was on a fast road to self destruct.
I hated my life, I hated myself.
I became a d c and dabbled in drugs from 8th grade on. I cut school. I ran with the wrong crowd. I wanted to be high, anything but what I grew up fighting, feeling, I didn't want to feel.
I was tired of being miserable.
I had low self esteem and didn't much believe in myself. I didn't really aspire to much of anything, except to be loved.
I wanted children. I wanted to be a mother and make things right by my children. Maybe this is why when my two went off the rails it sent me to a pit of despair. Like Copa wrote, they were my Sleeping Beauty Kiss.
The question might be why you believed that anything ~ sensitivity or anything else about you or about your siblings or about anyone at all ~ could be a wrong "thing". Humans are composed of so many things. We are like symphonies in that way.

Cedar
We are like symphonies and I celebrate that. I love people, I am fascinated with what makes people unique individuals.

The wrong " thing" about my sibs is the pleasure they got, by hurting me.

They were children.

They were children, who went uncorrected and it festered out of control.

I wasn't beaten or starved, or anything like that.

But my spirit was beaten.


The end result was I went through many times when I didn't care properly for myself. Self sabotage. I took on the role of bullying myself. How strange is that? Reading up on it, it is quite common.

I go back to that place and time when deep feelings cause that old "button" to be pressed.
I become my own tormentor.

Recognizing this is important for my healing. Also, I have this propensity to feel guilty about these memories, as if I am whining and lamenting over trivial stuff. I had a roof over my head, food on the table. Parents who loved me. They were a bit lacking on the emotional side and hugs department, but they taught us values and tried their best.
I am grateful for that.

Reading articles about the effect of sibling bullying helps to reel in those guilty feelings and wondering who is the liar. It validates for me what my FOO will not. Why would they? It wasn't validated from the get go.

It must have been super confusing for me as a child to have this happen daily, and nothing done about it. So I wonder, did I somehow start to feel that I must have deserved it? Do I resort to self sabotage because that feeling of worthlessness is "normal" for me? Do I need to constantly fight the hard fight, swim against the current, because I grew up that way?

I think so. I think even when the stressors are removed I can be my own worst enemy. It is a whole different learning curve.

I love my sibs, but find the old dynamics with my sis creeping in when we get closer. She still wants to have control. Knowing this can help me have somewhat of a relationship and gives me tools to be more cautious.

I do not think I would have ever gone to therapy for this. Reading and learning here has helped me tremendously. I believe my story. It was a horrible thing for me to grow up subjected to constant belittling, teasing, gas lighting and trickery. I no longer need that to be validated by my sister or my FOO, because I KNOW what happened to me.

The real work now, is learning to take better care of myself, and prevent myself from sliding into self sabotage.

Thank you Cedar and all.....

(((Hugs)))
leafy
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
People look at kindergarteners as so cute, so innocent, with some of them, there is nothing further from the truth. They are little people with pretty well formed personalitys. Some are manipulative little tyrants, those darn rascals. It is amazing what some of these kids stoop to
Two sides to that, though. Unfortunately.
For my kids? By grade 1, they had LABELS from TEACHERS. "Non-compliant" was a big one. Otherwise know as "bad attitude".
When the reality was... unidentified disabilities and learning differences that made the classroom environment almost impossible to survive in, much less thrive.

I wonder how many "rascals" are really just kids with issues, who are falling through the cracks in a different way.
 

New Leaf

Well-Known Member
Two sides to that, though. Unfortunately.
For my kids? By grade 1, they had LABELS from TEACHERS. "Non-compliant" was a big one. Otherwise know as "bad attitude".
When the reality was... unidentified disabilities and learning differences that made the classroom environment almost impossible to survive in, much less thrive.

I wonder how many "rascals" are really just kids with issues, who are falling through the cracks in a different way.
True that IC.
Fortunately, we have a really caring, kind staff who are on top of things and work really hard to get kids the help they need.
I will say that kindergarten has changed so much and is more like first or even second grade now. I think it is hard for little bodies to sit still most of the day and do work. I think this causes problems for many kids.
Sorry for the bad experience and labeling with your kids Insane. That is not right. It hurts.

We have a good team here, who work hard to do the best for kids.
Sometimes it backfires and parents don't want to recognize their kids challenges. That frustrates my friends to no end because they know a kid probably has special needs but the parents refuse to see it..........they have done some very good work with kids coming through our little school.... It pains them to see kids struggle, knowing they need help but parents will not even acknowledge it.

(((hugs)))
leafy
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
People look at kindergarteners as so cute, so innocent, with some of them, there is nothing further from the truth.
I disagree. I do not believe that the appearance, the overt expression of aggressive behavior in children so young, says much of anything about their true nature. To believe this, really, is kind of like the idea of a bad seed, wherein adults have little or no responsibility.

Let me tell you why I think the appearance of aggressivity or passivity in children so young, does not say much.

Some children turn their sadism against themselves. To me, this is as bad or worse, as turning it against others. Some kids hide their sadism, and call it something else. This is dangerous too. Because eventually it gels in a way in the personality that is frozen and hidden and because it is called something else, it is harder to confront and work out. It is no less destructive to themselves and to others if it is called another name.

I think the key here is the flexibility and the hopefulness to be able to say: I can be mean and I can be hurt. I have feelings and so does the other person. I will try to be open to the idea that I could have and still do hurt other people, while intentional or not. I can bear to accept and take responsibility for that. Similarly, the sensitive person might say to themselves. I can and have caused hurt. It may have indirect. But still I will own it. I will work on trying to recognize when I have done so and to find my power voice and I will take responsibility.

With respect to our schoolyard I think that one key is seeing all the kids as the same, and not different. To see the kids as different is to buy in to roles, and to risk helping to perpetuate stereotypical behaviors.

An alternative way to respond is to support the seemingly more aggressively behaving children, to not only take responsibility for their aggressive behaviors but to express their own pain, sadness, or vulnerability--which are equally there within them.

In this way the aggressive-appearing kids come to be able to feel safe and strong enough to express their weakness and sensitivity. And perhaps that they may have been, even, victimized. To express that too.

And to encourage the more reserved or passive---appearing child to express directly their own anger and grow their power-voice, instead of wielding their power, under wraps, by denouncing the other kids, openly or in hiding as perpetrators. Or just as harmful to them, to come to believe about themselves that they are victims.

Sometimes people, young and old, stomp out the appearance of their own vulnerability, because they are afraid. If they can come to feel safe enough to feel and be more vulnerable and expressive, they have the potential to develop compassion for themselves and for others.

I can be strong enough to hear the other person's pain without being diminished, because I can feel and express my own. I can be strong enough to see the other person's sensitivity and the way I may have hurt them, because I can allow myself to be who I am in all things.

It is to see both sides. That yes, I may suffer, and I may have suffered at the other's hand, but yes, I have caused suffering too. By not taking responsibility for my own anger and sense of vengeance, however covertly expressed. Sometimes, even concealed to myself. I am equally responsible as are others, as having limited myself by my self-serving beliefs about myself and others.

There is nobody to whom this would not apply. Myself, one of the first. I have hurt my own mother and sister to the extent that they have hurt me. I have been powerful and acted powerfully with regards to them, as they have towards me. To the extent that I could not see my responsibility, I am responsible now.

I do not want to be a frozen person, unable to see large parts of myself.

Everybody has the capacity for aggression and/or submission. Everybody can be harmed and harm. Sensitivity can be every bit as aggressive, albeit, covertly expressed. Passive-aggression is aggression still. The appearance of sensitivity, of submission, can be equally a means to manipulate and to cause hurt.

Neither aggression nor submission have anything to do with innocence or lack thereof. Children who behave aggressively on the playground may be victims in their own homes. They may be modeling what has been done to them. And when they have been victimized, they cry too.

When my sister tattled about me, telling lies, I may have cried too. I was a highly sensitive child. I remain a sensitive adult. I have also tried to be other things, too.

Aggressive children, can be victims as much as the more "sensitive-appearing" children."
They are little people with pretty well formed personalitys. Some are manipulative little tyrants, those darn rascals.
The expression of sensitivity can be a way to control or dominate a situation. This can be a way to "work" your environment, every bit a strategy as dominance. Power comes in many guises. There was a wonderful book I once read called The Powers of the Weak. I think the author was Elizabeth Janeway. The only difference between power strategies of weaker groups (and Individuals) is that they are covert.

My sister was a tattle. And she crowed in private about how she was able to "win" through presenting herself to herself and others about being the victim of others. When she had contrived and manipulated the entire thing, as if she had been the general in a war. It was aggressive. It was domineering. But it was covert. She controlled it all, with the appearance of victim-hood, when it was dominance and aggression. The only difference is she called it another thing.

My sister was able on a limited scale to wield power directly and openly in her work and her life. When she openly had power, unfortunately, she became a bully.
It is amazing what some of these kids stoop to. I see a pattern of dominant kids picking on the shy more reserved ones, kids acting out, bullying and outright lying to get out of trouble.
Again, I say, there is an element of sadism, the potential to bully in everybody. It is how it is channeled. And how it is dealt with by parents and other adults.

I am thinking of my own son here. He was bullied to the point where he had to be put in a non-public school. He was bullied by teachers too. Like I think Insane does, I believe teachers influence bullying, by picking sides. They do so based upon their own psychologies.

COPA
 
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New Leaf

Well-Known Member
I apologize if I have offended you both Copa, and Insane. What I had intended to say is that people do not understand the capacity young kids have to be mean. All kids.

We are all imperfect humans.

"Innocence" was the wrong word to use.

Of course there are so many variables as to why young children act out as they do.

Personalities are very complex.

I am not a psychologist, just a person trying to figure out what happened with my FOO while growing up.

Trying to figure out stuff that has been buried for a long time.

I did not seek vengeance on my sibs. I just wanted to get away from the onslaught. I did not "tattle" and plot and make up stories to get them into trouble. I was too afraid of them. It got to a point where I didn't tell, because the retaliation was too heavy.

I am sorry your sister did that to you Copa.


Again, I am sorry if I used the wrong wording to convey my thoughts.

My son was bullied also. He hated kindergarten. Who hates kindergarten?
I feel sad.

leafy

:backingout:
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
people do not understand the capacity young kids have to be mean. All kids.
I differ with that. First, Freud and before him Hobbes, believed children to be cauldrons of evil, of toxic emotions, including incestuous desires and murderous fantasies.

Second, I think people do realize that kids are a mass of complex emotions, desires and behaviors. But they do not necessarily make a big deal over it.

Because believe it or not the ability of a child to behave as overtly mean, to my way of thinking, is a way healthier sign than is the suppression of all aggressiveness by the child.

Mean behavior can always be curbed. By adults and eventually by the child herself. But if a child has been broken to the point where she suppresses all aggressive behavior and turns it inward towards herself, or twists it or hides it, to be expressed covertly, this is way harder to deal with and harder to extinguish.

If one is able to accept their own complexity and ambivalence, they are better able to respond to children and other adults and even their own children, with more equanimity. It is what is feared and hidden, from the self, which hurts us. Not the slings and arrows that come from outside of us. Because what we hide from ourselves, makes us vulnerable, not the attacks by others.

New Leaf. I was in no way offended. I just have a different point of view.

This is a public forum. There are people who will come after us and will read our words. I feel responsible to make clear my own. That does not mean I do so because I am hurt or in any way upset. I write from the desire to represent what I feel is useful, from a position of integrity and a desire for and valuing of knowledge and the belief in growth and change.

This is what I believe:

Our self-deceptions make us vulnerable. Or what we fear to see.

My biggest vulnerability with my own son is what I do not want to see or to forgive in myself. Because this is where I get hooked.

I think I am not the lone ranger. If an adult has trouble owning up to their own meanness and actual cruelties perpetrated, or even to look at the possibility that they can be mean and have been, they may tend to overreact to behaviors of children and adults and misinterpret it. This goes for any other quality in oneself about which one feels conflicted.

That is what I think.

Now, I do not agree with either Freud or Hobbes. I believe that to interpret the behaviors of babies and children as malicious or evil, is to project and to inject the value-laden thinking of adults, already misshapen, onto innocents.

I think babies are at first neutral. They are neither good or bad. They just want to eat and sleep and feel good and loved. The values come later. They learn them based upon how they are treated and how they interpret the world.

My belief is that everybody is served by honesty with themselves and the ability to own who and what they are. To the extent they do so, they will be able to do better within themselves and with others.

COPA
 
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Copabanana

Well-Known Member
I am sorry your son was bullied in kindergarten, New Leaf. I think this is way more common than uncommon.
I did not seek vengeance on my sibs. I just wanted to get away from the onslaught.
If not vengeance, was there not anger?

I would think if my siblings were constantly mean to me, I would feel angry and I would want to get back at them in some way or another. Even if was just to stick my tongue out when their backs were turned, or to spit in their coke or something. Not that I would have done that but I might have thought about it.

I remember when I started psychotherapy many years ago, sometimes while I was driving I would think to myself: "Gee, I could run these pedestrians over." (I do not think I had ever had that thought before.) I did not want to run them over. I did not feel I would ever do it. I had never had those kinds of thoughts before, and I worried about them. So I mentioned this to the therapist and he responded: "You never thought of that before?" (Like I was abnormal when I did not have those thoughts.)

His perspective was that it was the most normal thing in the world for normal people to have aggressive thoughts...but not act on them.

When you think about it, that is the ideal way to be. Because it means that one is not afraid of one's power or potential, because one is confident that one will check any destructive behavior. Own aggressivity and confidence of being able to check it, but to be in control, either way. That is my goal.

COPA
 
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Copabanana

Well-Known Member
I need to remember where I post.

I disturb people when I am hard on myself and when I tell too much truth on PE threads about how I feel.

I am reminding myself here, that I need to remember to segregate content.

COPA
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
Copa, I love this way you are thinking. You are thinking like a person making connections so deep there are no words, only symbols. This is a courageous act, and a very difficult thing.

This morning, I am thinking about Brene Brown's concept of the gladiator, rising from the bloodied sand. How he defines himself now, as he comes to his feet, is the only thing that matters.

That is what you are saying too, Copa.

Here is a quote for you, for your courage:

The warrior learns the spiritual realm by dwelling on the cutting edge of the sword, standing at the edge of the fire pit, venturing right up to the edge of starvation if necessary. Vibrant and intense living is the warrior's form of worship.

Hayes

And another:

The most difficult part of traditional taekwondo is not learning the first kick or punch. It is not struggling to remember the motions of a poomsae or becoming acquainted with Korean culture. Rather, it is taking that first step across the threshold of the dojong door. This is where the roads diverge, where choices are made that will last a lifetime.

Doug Cook
Taekwondo ~ A Path to Excellence


***

Cedar, I still do feel the way she intended me to feel. Humiliated. That somebody (she, my sister) could, would do that to me. I have not gotten over it. It still horrifies me as much as it would have if somebody violated me. Perhaps even more.

You were violated, Copa. By someone you knew and trusted as a sister. Imagine the depth of that betrayal; now, imagine the insidious, unremitting, unseen betrayals that went before and that surely came after.

The banality of evil.

Here is a secret: Brought up in the self-same environment, we too learned betrayal and victimization and secret alliance. We learned it first, in fact. The difference is that we refused it.

The sisters did not.

Or they would not be as they are.

Nothing to do with us.

Here is another quote:

The Talmud states, "do not be daunted by the enormity of the world's grief. Do justly now, love mercy now, walk humbly now. You are not obligated to complete the work but neither are you free to abandon it.

Bridges McCall

***

Our Families of Origin were so unhealthy, Copa. It breaks my heart a little bit to know it. I stumble over the underlying reality, and over the why and the win.

We should never have been hurt in those ways. Not us, not our sibs, not the mothers or the fathers in whatever the secret underlying dynamic of their marriages was.

No one should be hurt, like that.

***

What is done is done. We were more vulnerable ~ all of us ~ by a thousand times, as young women (or young men) than we are, now. My heart breaks, for that beautiful young woman I was. I had no idea.

Isn't that something.

Our purpose here is to ferret out the why behind those belief systems that darkened everything they covered, expose them for what they are, and heal into strength and wholeness. Whatever the others do or did is not our business. Strength and wholeness is: Nothing to protect. Ultimately then, is exactly the category you posted in the final paragraph of your last post: acceptance ~ of ourselves, and of everyone we love, without judging of course,, if we can manage it, but more importantly, without fear.

I loved what you posted.

Loved the truth in it.

Is is what it is.

***

We have been taught to believe that abject self abasement (taking responsibility whether we had anything to do with whatever it was or not) that rolling defenselessly belly up at the mercy of the thing that is destroying us, is the correct way to survive. And we did survive. But those behaviors that were necessary then, when we lived the illusion of Plato's Cave with a bullet, are worse than pointless, now.

When our children say, "Mom, I'm in trouble.", abject self abasement or seeing Mom immediately self-destructing in any of a thousand million ways is not going to help us, now.

:mcsmiley1:

Cedar, furiously working her needlework, continues.

As much as I post about the sisters, this has nothing to do with the sisters. What it does have to do with is exactly how you opened your first post: What it does to us to have been treated like that by our own families. Think how it feels to have been honked at on the highway; how it feels to be disregarded and put on hold forever and finally, to talk to someone whose accent we cannot understand. Imagine the cost to us then, when someone we love, someone who knows us intimiately, treats us as someone without value.

These kinds of things do not happen in healthy families, Copa.

So, here is the question that matters; the only question that matters: Why do we listen? What is it about us that leads us to believe anyone else's behaviors define us?

That is a very good question, Copa.

Remember the boorish man who suggested you had no boundaries?

The issue is not whether you did or did not have a boundary to call your own. The issue is why you responded as you did.

For me: The issue is not whether or not I am a manipulator. Of course I am. The issue is why I decided that destroying myself was an adequate or appropriate response.

Same dynamic.

External versus internal locus of control.

Rolling belly up.

But why? What is the dynamic there, Copa?

***

They were brought up to do it Copa, and we were brought up to take the hit. I posted yesterday about the triangle that may have existed between the three of us: Between the mother and the sister, and us. It had to have been so Copa, because we are the persons easily victimized, without defense, to sadists. Even now, as adults, we somehow believe the luncheon was not excellent enough, or the condo on the beach was not excellent enough, and that is why the sisters behave so outrageously badly. That is it something in us that calls those kinds of behaviors in the otherwise decent persons of our sisters. But Copa, if we look just a little further afield...our sisters aren't very decent people to anyone, at all.

Yet, we believe them.

Why.

In that answer lies our freedom, not only from the sisters, but from the miserable, twisted hurtfulness of our Pasts. All of it, Copa.

***

You are still seeing the sister's behaviors through the eyes of childhood Copa. Stop protecting the sister from what you know to be true about her. Like the mothers (in my case, this is certain), the sisters are not who we believed them to be. How is it we have been able to accept that, based on their words and their actions and their betrayals of every smallest decency or loyalty, the sisters do not love us.

The sisters do not love us.

Accepting that was all about beating ourselves up and believing ourselves worth less. We looked at the evidence and drew conclusions and it was painful but it is what it is.

Why then, given that we had no trouble at all declaring ourselves to have been found unworthy by our own sisters, do we have trouble believing the sisters to be less than we'd believed. What is that thinking pattern that tells us rolling belly up is a correct way to think.

Again, like Dororthy in the Wizard of Oz, we were always able to go home, Copa. We had to want to badly enough to follow the Yellow Brick Road. To make it through the poppy field. (Denial) To decipher the lies and accept that the Wizard was nothing more than a salesman from Kansas. We are coming through that part so well. Now comes the part where we realize we always had Courage. And Bravery. And Smarts. Now is the part where we face up to it that nothing was as we believed it to be but we are balking at it, Copa.

Why?

Home soon now, Copa.

The sisters are still demanding the Red Slippers, Copa, when they have their own.

It's a game.

A game we've been groomed to lose. Why is it so impossibly difficult to let go of this kind of thinking.

Our slippers are our own. Just like in that Nancy Sinatra song about the boots that were made for walking. Something tells me Nancy Sinatra's sister did not get very far when she tried to steal Nancy's made for walking boots.

I suspect the Red Slippers are like Cinderella's slipper in this way: The slippers only fit Cinderella.

As if I expect myself to have done something affirmative. Like what? Killed her? An honor killing? Yes, maybe it is that. Maybe she triggers the rage and the body memory of what it was for me as a child. Towards my parents, either my mother or father. And I transferred it to her. And that emotion, the internalized rage and self-contempt never has been discharged.

I like this thinking for myself. That I would be this slithering, cold bloodedly murderous person in my heart. That I hide it so cunningly and so well that though I overwhelm and attack and feel black hatred toward my sister and my mother, no one even suspects me and I don't know it myself. That they are so frightened of me that they accuse me of renting condos and inviting them to beaches (or letting them take their four generation family pictures at my house, instead of my Mother's house ~ or their own house) to hurt and shame them. That I am a dangerous, even a depraved, sister and a worse daughter; that I am a cold and blackened thing.

Or...it could be that this is the thinking that is as ugly as the thinking we were brought up to believe about ourselves, Copa. We have been abused. These blackened imageries are going to have been implanted in our psyches. This is what we are ferreting out and clearing now, Copa. You and I are not responsible ~ not in any smallest way ~ for the way the sisters are. Or for the way the Mothers are or were.

We were victims.

We need to recognize victim thinking and seriously consider its validity.

It is like you say all the time: "Unfortunately, I was ugly."

:O)

That is a stellar saying. I used it myself, the last time I went out and felt ugly. I just said it: "Unfortunately, I am ugly." And out I went Copa, and it was fine. It was better than fine in this way: I was real. Having nothing whatsoever to do with appearance, but everything in the world to do with illusion: "Unfortunately, I am ugly."

I love that phrase. Love the determination in it.

***

We responded well to our destructive upbringings it seems. Because we are kind people, I suppose. And that I think is a genetic thing. But we bear the twists and scars of our experiences. Clearing this material has so little to do with the actual sisters, Copa. Though it is true that once we are through it, that once we are clear, we will see them without the aura of Mother's life and death power over us. Be aware that the sisters carry the Mother's aura, Copa.

There is not a trick that they missed.

Not one.

Remember my posting about my mother telling me, right to my face, that she enjoyed the jealousy over her between my sister and I. Do you see the dynamic there, Copa. My mother, doing what she has always done. How sad, that I will never have my sister.

I never will.

I never did, but I didn't know it because I took the hit. Masochism, self sacrifice, feels right to me. Someone accuses me of something as ugly as jealousy and I believe I must be jealous. (Or that I am a manipulator without ever once knowing what that could possibly mean in a setting where, by definition, we are exploring my manipulativeness. Or whether or not you have a boundary acceptable to a fellow employee.)

How do I betray myself like this, Copa? (For all of us, this is the question ~ having nothing to do with our abusive pasts and everything to do with how we see ourselves today.)

Why, if someone says words implying you need a different boundary system than the one you created custom made for you, do you believe the stranger's words at the cost of your own self and what you know?

Why do I do the same thing.

Because that is what the internal echoes are thundering so loudly that we are missing it, that's why.

***

It isn't that every human does not think bad things sometimes. The difference is that some of us will do everything it is in our power to do to hurt, to create discord, to make drama where none exists.

That is the difference.

I love the stories about Dolly, and about M.

I am happy for you, Copa.

You have created a good life, filled with beautiful things. I love "mula". Does it mean stubborn, like a mule?

How strong M must be, in his center.

Cedar


The end result was I went through many times when I didn't care properly for myself. Self sabotage. I took on the role of bullying myself. How strange is that? Reading up on it, it is quite common.

I go back to that place and time when deep feelings cause that old "button" to be pressed.
I become my own tormentor.

Yes. But why do we do this. That is the question. And the answer is important. We cannot be strong women ~ strong enough to make any difference at all for our children ~ with this internal dynamic.

Cedar
 

New Leaf

Well-Known Member
I write from the desire to represent what I feel is useful, from a position of integrity and a desire for and valuing of knowledge and the belief in growth and change.
Thank you Copa, of course you have your perspective.

I think I have not expressed myself clearly enough. I apologize. I might be digging myself in deeper trying to rephrase but here goes. Young children have behaviors and act out in ways that surprise some people. Not all people, some people.These small, cute bundles of joy and energy are trying to find their way. In my case, growing up, I was an extremely shy, bundle of feelings. My sister was very domineering and mean, but could put on an act for my parents. They chose to focus on helping me to stand up.
Which caused me to focus on that something must be wrong with me.

I was not trying to get into a psychological discussion on passive aggressiveness or anything, just trying to explain how it may have been in my case that my sis and bro were capable at a very young age of being mean and manipulative and controlling.
I reacted by crying, and the focus was on getting me to stop crying, not correcting the mean behavior.

We were neither good or bad, we were children.

I grew up in this dynamic and it affected me detrimentally. To this day, I can sink to those feeling states if I am not careful. I am going to the core of those states here on FOO, by writing it out. Something that has affected me my entire life. I am not this poor pitiful thing anymore, but, I do have a propensity to allow dominant types to walk on me. This is the whole reason for being here. I do also, have a way of overanalyzing things and feeling hurt and withdrawing for self protection. I have to find ways to not go there. Forgive me if I am wrong, I am going against the grain to write the following.......

So, my friends, when this couple of sentences were focused on and expounded on, I felt blasted and overwhelmed. Okay, I was mad for a bit, like the point was missed entirely. You are very intelligent women and I appreciate your comments and help. Is this victim thinking? Am I taking it to a place I shouldn't?

Please understand that I am going somewhere very deep, and I may write things that you feel need correction, but I feel like my words have been misconstrued, and picked apart, rather than the context of what I am trying to get across. That was really, really hard for me to write. I am totally exposing myself, naked. Do I drive people away, because I am just to damn sensitive? Oh my God, am I whining? I am sorry but that is how it felt to me. See? I am sensitive. But I am also standing up a bit and being honest. It scares me, because I don't want to be misconstrued again. I may be digging another hole by trying to explain this...... I am not to your level of intelligence, I didn't even go to college....I marvel at your writing and sometimes am a bit intimidated. I have stepped into a room of intellectuals and I am just a farm girl. .......I have to read your posts over and over to get the fullness of them. I look words up, google names and books. I am trying to keep up with you guys and you are way beyond my level. My university is Google, really.

Please understand that what I have written here comes from a very deep place. I feel that my wording touched upon an area that you are passionate about. I respect and honor your opinion. It's cool.
Please don't tip toe around me either. I wont break. It takes me awhile to process things and go through the feelings to get to a logical, rational place. If I have offended again, I am sorry. I am feeling pretty ignorant right now and I may or may not erase this. If I post it, I have gone completely bonkers........I have exposed my innards. I am excoriated. Yuck.

I think babies are at first neutral. They are neither good or bad. They just want to eat and sleep and feel good and loved. The values come later. They learn them based upon how they are treated and how they interpret the world.
I don't think I can even begin to match your knowledge and study of psychology.
But, I do have a differing opinion. I don't think babies are born a blank slate or neutral. I think they have some innate traits and personalities that are influenced and built upon by environment, nurturing and culture.
Yes, neither good or bad. As I wrote earlier innocence was the wrong word to use.
If not vengeance, was there not anger?
I am thinking Copa about that, was I angry? Good question. I must have been.
I couldn't retaliate, I was outnumbered. It would have been futile. I was more fearful than anything, at that young age. I was powerless.
I recall being frustrated and hurt. I was broken. Crushed. Confused.
Pitiful.
I was the tale between my legs urinating lowest dog in the pack, at home.
Literally, I wet my pants up until the third grade. It was like I didn't even listen to my own body.........
In school, I thrived, it was my place of refuge, the one place where I could have some feeling of equality, escape, it was an escape. Justice, even.

At home, it was survival mode, and how I survived was by becoming docile and invisible.
That was me, up until I hit puberty.
I didn't stand up for myself until 7th grade.
I refused to be sis slave.
Get me this, get me that....I dared say "Get it yourself". That was HUGE. I remember when I said it. My sister glared at me. She was pissed. How dare I?

Things got way worse after that.
The torment ramped up.
I did everything I could, not to be home.
I hated sis, but I hated myself more.
That was probably my anger, leveled at myself.
Still and then, all I ever wanted was to be my sisters friend. I think that is why I internalized everything into a self hatred. She was good to her friends, it must have been me. I felt broken.

Most of the stuff that happened was when I was young.
My sis and I became "friends" as adults. Then I realized it was pretty one sided, as long as I did what she wanted...it was all good. Sigh.
We are all so far away from one another.
When we argued this fall, it was because I was upset with how she had spoken to my mom, and I verbalized that. I think she was completely caught off guard.I spoke calmly and expressed she was being harsh. She exploded immediately. How dare I question her? I did not back down and shrink as usual.
The dynamic is changing and I am finally speaking my mind, and it is something she is not used to.

I do love her and my family, which makes this process all the more confusing.
I feel like I am betraying them when I write.
I am still compelled to explore it because to not is self betrayal.
Maybe I am angry now. Because I can be angry.

Surfing, sports, brought out an aggressive side, I was like a whole different person.....

I can be competitive, maybe that is my aggression?
I have never had a desire to hurt anybody, well that's wrong, I have hurt myself.
Stifled my art, stayed too long in an abusive relationship, let my two run over me.
It is almost as if the past.... I am recreating to do over.
Is that what it is?
Like some macabre de ja vu?
Reinventing self, through similar situations........
My belief is that everybody is served by honesty with themselves and the ability to own who and what they are. To the extent they do so, they will be able to do better within themselves and with others.
Of course I have done stupid things and hurt people. I am certainly no saint.

I think this is true, be honest and own who and what we are. When the definition is hard to pinpoint, that is an issue. When the foundation of the definition is built on shaky ground, it is worth examination. Then there is the whole who is the liar question? What I am looking at was 55 years ago.

This is entirely different from us. The worst threats for us, are those that we learned to do to ourselves. They may even seem like the best things about us.

Docility, hope, loving natures, nurturing, acceptance, compliance, imagination, humor, fantasy. Even a certain femininity, that looks like vulnerability, slight confusion, self-deprecation, deference, the oh so attractive humor of making fun of ourselves, of putting ourselves down. Oh how attractive that has been. YUCK.

We may have been prototypical females, so as to not threaten everybody. And completely defanged and confined ourselves and our power.

Oh how we may muzzle our angry voices. Strident and oh so unattractive. Out. Damn SPOT.

I think we arrived into adulthood eunuchs. Completely castrated females. By ourselves.
This.
This is it. This is how it feels to be me.
Oh, I have grown and overcome many things, I have found a voice here and there.

I don't feel like running people over, but I do get angry at aggressive drivers and I admit, gleefully slow down when people tail me.

I don't like the people in the non-profit who are manipulative and conniving. My friend who was so poorly mistreated along with those of us who dared oppose the craziness, wants to get back on the board and get them off.
I wash my hands of it completely. Walking away.
I don't think that is cowardly, I think it is smart.
There are other people who can come along and try to be the saviors.

So there you have it. I thank you for allowing me to write here. I do apologize if I have offended anyone. You guys are just too smart for me.
I am deciding what to do. I am feeling pretty low right now. Foolish.
I am very sad today.

I am sorry Copa and Cedar for what you went through with your FOO. It is a very different experience than mine. You are in a different place on this journey, and I am a latecomer.

I have a really bad case of the stupids and uglies, but I have to get going to work, I missed my walk, and I probably should have just gone and thought things through before I sat down to write.

Please don't be mad at me.
Going out on a limb and posting.

leafy
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
Copa risked, Leafy. You began it, but Copa valued you, the children you work with, and herself, enough to respond honestly. She told you true things. That is a rare, and very special, quality of Copa's.

Stellar integrity.

If I post it, I have gone completely bonkers........I have exposed my innards. I am excoriated. Yuck.

No.

You are choosing brave. You are choosing different patterns of response and coming into "Nothing to protect." I was reading about Martin Luther yesterday. "Here I stand. I can do no other." That may not be a direct quote. But that was the gist. The "Here I stand." part ~ that is a direct quote.

And he changed the world.

Here I stand. Innards exposed.

Nothing to protect.

I can do no other.

Leafy, this is what we do, here. We write the things that matter. There is risk in it, but unless we can write the words that matter and hear the responses, we cannot heal. We learn our own truths, here. Sharing with one another, risking with and for and through one another, we reset the courses of our lives. It is less what one of the others of us will think of us than it is about learning how we think of ourselves. That you feel vulnerable and risked anyway is a measure of how determined you are to come through this. I hear you backtracking a little, heard you fall into the old patterns for a minute there, but you chose. You came through naked.

Good. I know that is a hard thing.

We each have been there too, Leafy. You are doing well, staying balanced, finding value in yourself, in the child you were, and in the person you intend to reclaim.

I think you are doing good work.

Yes, neither good or bad. As I wrote earlier innocence was the wrong word to use.

Both good and bad. For children, and for one another as adults too, our highest function may be the capacity to model how to manage human. Naming where a human is along that continuum at any given moment is not helpful or productive. How we see and are seen, especially when we are children, matters very much. Especially for those working with children in a professional capacity, it is best to be aware of the incredible power we wield just by walking around as adults.

It takes courage to be human.

I think it does.

Copa's choice to respond honestly took courage and integrity, Leafy.

Through her courage, you can grow.

If you choose.

I think this is true, be honest and own who and what we are. When the definition is hard to pinpoint, that is an issue. When the foundation of the definition is built on shaky ground, it is worth examination. Then there is the whole who is the liar question? What I am looking at was 55 years ago.

Yes. And we are overriding those things we were taught about ourselves, now. And that matters, and is sacred ground.

That's why we have to take our shoes off.

And go naked. And be afraid, and ashamed Leafy, so we can have a look at the why behind all of it and lay claim to the joy in all of it.

And this is a safe place to do that. But there are no safeguards. Each of us will believe as she believes, and each of us has to speak her truth, or none of us will get better.

It gets to be that we come to a place where we prefer naked. We prefer the risky interpretation. We want to know, and we are willing to look foolish, or unkind. (Like I always do when I am talking about my family. Like a broken record.)

So there you have it. I thank you for allowing me to write here. I do apologize if I have offended anyone. You guys are just too smart for me.
I am deciding what to do. I am feeling pretty low right now. Foolish.
I am very sad today.

This is how it feels whenever we break through, Leafy. As we continue breaking through into deeper layers, these kinds of feelings intensify. That is what Copa meant (and I meant) when we would post about how to survive it and found the concepts of work and of Germany. But here is the best thing, Leafy: Three days from now, you will be so proud of your risking. You have planted a flag, have reclaimed territory of the self today. That strength, those hidden places where the hurt was so deep that you could not bear to know it ~ those energies are your own, now.

That is real change, Leafy. For you. It has so little to do with anyone else ~ even with your sibs.

Wait and see. This will happen, for you. This is the beginning of your healing, New Leaf. It feels so awful when we risk to bring those terrible ways we were hurt into feeling up for healing. But you did it!

There is more.

It becomes ever more painful.

You can pull back, stop the process, any time you choose to.

It helps me to understand that though I may not know how to do it, holding myself with compassion ~ honest oh man I look ugly and feel worse and acceptance of that ~ that seems to be how it works.

We are safe here, and are so fortunate in that.

Because we are anonymous, we are safe, here.

I am happy for you, Leafy.

Cedar
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
You are thinking like a person making connections so deep there are no words, only symbols.
I do not understand this fully, Cedar. If you would give me an example it would help me, I think.
Brene Brown's concept of the gladiator, rising from the bloodied sand. How he defines himself now, as he comes to his feet, is the only thing that matters.
Yes. This is a beautiful concept. Coming to his/her feet. The only thing that matters. That is the first choice and most important choice part.
Vibrant and intense living is the warrior's form of worship.
I love this.
that first step across the threshold of the dojong door. This is where the roads diverge, where choices are made that will last a lifetime.
Yes. I respect myself that I got to my feet and I crossed the threshold door, and the choices I made have lasted a lifetime.

And here I am these past 3 plus years in my 60's, close to the end of my life who knows, revisiting that dojong door, questioning whether I did really get up or not, or did choose the right path, or did live intensely with everything put at stake.

Because the emotions and grief that have come up in these past 3 years plus have put stuff on the table, that makes me feel as if my whole real self has been buried, and only regurgitated like vomit, in my grief and sense of having been destroyed, the face of me.
Brought up in the self-same environment, we too learned betrayal and victimization and secret alliance. We learned it first, in fact. The difference is that we refused it.
Yes.
Nothing to protect. Ultimately then, is exactly the category you posted in the final paragraph of your last post: acceptance ~ of ourselves, and of everyone we love, without judging of course,, if we can manage it, but more importantly, without fear.
Nothing to protect. And with all of it on the table, no judgment, no fear. No grief. Just joy. Out of the closet and into the light.

I am reading The Artist's Way on Kindle. She equates creativity with light and power. Illumination of where G-d is, which brings too, the self, and in doing so, feeling and propelled by the power of G-d, whether nature, life force, G-d, whatever one calls it.

We are revealing here the blocks to both our knowing and our power.

This is not about validating each other. It is not in its essence about supporting each other. It is about knowing ourselves. So that we can manifest power, not for a career, not for domination, not for competition, not for resistance, but power to be who we can be, as manifestations of G-d and nature, our own.
abject self abasement (taking responsibility whether we had anything to do with whatever it was or not) that rolling defenselessly belly up at the mercy of the thing that is destroying us, is the correct way to survive.
This is what is at stake here. Belly up? Or not.
What it does have to do with is exactly how you opened your first post: What it does to us to have been treated like that by our own families.
I cannot find the post to which you refer here, Cedar. How far up is it? I want to look at it in relation to your comment.
when someone we love, someone who knows us intimately, treats us as someone without value.
Which is exactly the kernel of it. And we learn at their hands that child sacrifice is the way to respond. Even when we are in our sixties.
my sis and bro were capable at a very young age of being mean and manipulative and controlling.
Good for them. I wish I had had the courage and sense of safety to do the same. I had the capacity but it was turned against myself. How I wish I could have been a little bit mean and a little bit controlling. And how I wish that I had appraised my power sufficient to, and my parents amenable to my manipulation in my world.
I feel like my words have been misconstrued, and picked apart

Picking apart words and ideas is called analysis. It is one of my favorite things to do and I do it very well. I have to brag here a little bit. To enter graduate school you had to take a test, called the Graduate Record Examination or GRE. I scored in the 99th percentile in this category of thinking. And 99th in Verbal ability, competing against others, all college graduates or nearly so. I love my mind and I have worked hard cultivating it at certain points in my life.

Critical thinking is thinking that takes things apart and uses those bits of thinking, those ideas to build new ways of thinking. We use critical thinking here to change ourselves. Here on FOO we reconstrue how we see ourselves and our lives, so as to live more fully in the time we have left.

We each of us who have participated in FOO before you came New Leaf have entirely different backgrounds and values and ways of living. The one thing that united us was the desire to understand who we have been. That requires analysis. There is not another way to do it.

I don't want to be misconstrued again.

If that is the case, then I do not think you want to post on FOO. Because the biggest potential for growth is error. Because that is where we learn. By missing the mark. Our certainty about things is our enemy. It is in risking to be wrong, where we can grow.
I don't think babies are born a blank slate or neutral. I think they have some innate traits and personalities that are influenced and built upon
I agree with you. One hundred percent. I did not mean to infer that I think babies are blank slates, tabula rasa.

Of course there are temperamental and genetic differences. I am speaking here about how we respond and react to those proclivities. Those differ according to family, culture and place. Those reactions and responses are value-laden and they are what teach a baby how to act and how to think of herself. It is those responses and reactions that can irrevocably harm a child. It is that harm that was done we are trying to recognize so that we can repair ourselves.

By referring to babies as neutral, I meant that the baby does not think in terms of good or bad, she is taught. She is taught to see specific behaviors and attitudes and responses as wrong or right. Initially, she does not know or care that any one thing she does is right or wrong. Think about the gears in a car.

Neutral. In neutral the car will not travel, but from neutral lies the capacity to go however fast or direction one wants. That is not to say that a BMW and Porsche and Ford Econoline Van, all have the same potential and attributes. But it is to say that in neutral they all have their G-d given potential.

New Leaf, I took seriously your words and responded to them in a serious way. You are always free to block me, if you choose. I will understand. I will try as much as I can to ignore your posting, if that is what you wish. But when I do read something with which I differ, I will write my own opinion.

I would hope that you do not want me to muzzle myself. I cannot do that.

If you block me, I will still be able to post on FOO, you would just not see me. I would prefer to be blocked than to censor myself.

COPA
 
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