After they've left home...

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by witzend, Mar 17, 2008.

  1. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    I've been hi-jacking everyone's threads for far too long lately. I just can't figure out what to say, I guess, because nothing seems very urgent or pressing.

    Update on M - and I may have related some of this so far.

    While I was on my cruise, husband helped M move into a rented room in a house about 3 miles from home. Not a great neighborhood, but not the absolute worst, either. Just almost. Before I had left, M had called husband with the news that his girlfriend had given him a "move by" date. I told husband that we could give him a couple hundred bucks to help out getting a place, but we weren't taking any action, signing anything, and for now it was a one time only offer. And, the coup de gras, we only have one bed in our house - ours - and he can't move in with us. So, he helped M move and M came to the house while I was gone. husband told him that until he's got some miles on his big boy shoes, husband wouldn't be allowing him to be in contact with me, because he owed me more than an apology, he owed me maturity. husband also told him that M had hurt me, hurt husband, and nearly ruined our marriage and we weren't going to invest that much of ourselves in him again, or at least not at this point in time. I'm fine with that. My emotions about M are pretty flat at this point, and that's good.

    Update on L -

    She did get a job. Again. She's doing data entry for a company that processes paychecks and payments. That's fine. She is still seeing her old boyfriend but not living with him. She is also dating other men. I don't know and I don't want to know. We see her infrequently.

    What's ticking me off is that she acts as though she is still 14 years old sometimes! husband's birthday was last week, he had to work late, I had a 7 O'Clock appointment and she texts me at 4:30. I knew I shouldn't have answered it. "What are you doing for husband's BD?" We didn't have formal plans, but she invited herself out to dinner with us. Long story short, she showed up half an hour late with her boss (whom we've never met) in tow without asking us. The kitchen was closed at that point and we had already ordered. We went to our favorite tiny expensive exclusive restaurant. He boss sat and talked on her cell phone to people about work. She didn't even excuse herself and step outside! :furious:Then the woman monopolized the conversation all night! I mean, I get it that you might have to ask your boss (although I don't think that is what happened), but we were calling and texting "Where are you? We're ordering now!" and she could have answered her phone or called to ask. Not that we would have said no, although we might have, but I don't know because I wasn't given that opportunity!

    Then on two different occasions she has come to my house for social functions, brought friends, shown up in advance, and expected food for her and her friends while I'm trying to set up. The first time she got defensive when I said they could reheat pizza. "But Mom, they're my company!" I plain told her "They're not my company, I wasn't expecting them I'm not stopping for you, and you all need to help out if you're showing up early. I'm tired and I have been working all day, and I need help" "Mom, don't start that!"

    The more recent time, she showed up with a friend that I was expecting for bunco, and they both disappeared. I found them in my room. Not something I'm fond of because things go missing from my room. I don't think it's her, but I just don't like people hanging out in my room (it has a sitting room and such) when what they are at my home for is not taking place in my room. Nothing takes place in my room for anyone other than husband and I! So I went in there and asked what they were doing? Her friend was crying. Lauren says "We're busy, go away."


    Excuse me? This is my room. I just looked at her and said in that special mom voice "L..." You know. With an extra octave or two for good measure. She says "We're talking about something private and it's not something for everyone to hear." I looked at her friend and said "Are you OK? Is there anything you need?" "I'm fine, thanks, no I don't need anything." I said "OK, well everyone is out in the other room, and you guys need to come out and join us." "Mom, (three syllables) don't be that way! You guys (you guys? She wanted to join the group!) aren't even playing yet." Me, in the MOM low soft voice "L..." "I know I know mom, We'll be right out!" Me: "You could be nice to me once in a while."

    She's also demanded an i-pod for her birthday, and actually expects me to manage her i-tunes for her as well. She even asked me last week "So, should I go out and buy myself an i-pod this weekend, or should I wait until after my b-day?" I told her to wait. I also told her she had better get her computer working. The little brat. I hope she's happy with a shuffle. She won't be though. I'm sure she expects me to get her a Nano or a Classic. Fat chance. I got her a certificate for a massage and pedicure for Christmas and told her we needed to go spend a girl day together. I've asked twice, and she just doesn't have the time.

    She needs to know that she's either a guest in my house, or a member of my house (or my dinner table), and either way she doesn't get to do that to me. She counts on it that she can bring people with her and I won't embarrass her in front of them. That won't last forever, though. But what really chafes my hide is that I sit here and stew about it, and she is such a master that she will successfully avoid talking to me one on one for another four months. Then she'll say "But that was so long ago, why are you always dwelling on unhappy stuff?"


    Even though she has no compunction about being condescending to me in front of other people, I would never do it to her. She and I need to have a talk. We are not going to have an opportunity to do it for a while, although we will see her for her birthday before our vacation, that's not the appropriate time. I'm sure she's counting on that too.

    And to top it off, husband has been childish about helping around the house and with the dogs, and I'm ticked at him and not looking forward to our vacation because all he ever wants to do is sit around. For two weeks! I swear, I'm going to go find someone fun to go out with down there and leave him to read his books by himself at night!
  2. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful


    Both girls have pulled that one on me at one time or another. Now I could care less if I embarass them and they know it, so they knocked it off.

    Sounds like you need to set up lunch at a restaurant that requires some driving to get there, then while you've got her trapped in the car you can do the talking with difficult child and she's no place to go.

    When I need to clear the air with either of my girls I don't wait for the right time. I make it as soon as I can catch them. If there is a birthday or something around the same time, oh well. Life continues.

  3. meowbunny

    meowbunny New Member

    Sorry, but grow. a. spine. The next time your daughter shows up with uninvited guests, a polite but firm, "I'm sorry, we weren't expecting extra people tonight. I hate to do this, but I'm going to have to ask you to leave now." You're not being mean, you're not being rude but you're embarassing the heck out of her. Not your problem -- hers.

    I do feel so sorry for your daughter. She's only getting an iPOd shuffle for her b'day? Poor baby. You're going to be downloading her iTunes (at your expense, I assume)?

    Can you adopt me, please? I'd love an iPod of any type. A day at the spa sounds heavenly. Trust me, I'll find the time to spend the day with you for it.

    As to the bringing of friends, it sounds like she's trying to avoid being alone or having a one-on-one with you. Wonder why? Afraid of a lecture? Done something wrong she's afraid you'll figure out? Afraid you'll figure something out that she doesn't want you to know? Something smells and it's probably not pretty.

    I love the way your husband talked to your son. The man deserves a major hug for being so honest and up front to him. Sometimes being flat is a good way to be.

  4. carolanne

    carolanne Member

    I have no problem either pointing out my kids' being rude and last minute inviting friends for a meal. The rule around here is 24 hours notice and I seldom say no to them. If it had been me sitting in a restaurant with husband for his birthday and that woman was there, I would ask her to leave as it was a family celebration....if she chose to sit there and continue being rude, the bill would have been passed to her for sure!!!

    As to the ipod, sorry no sympathy from me either. My kids have mp4s and are very happy with them. They want something better they earn the money to get it.

    You know, I don't get this sense of entitlement kids have today....and believe me, mine are right there at times too.

    Kudos to husband for handling son that way....can he give my husband lessons? :)

  5. hearts and roses

    hearts and roses Mind Reader

    Hey {{{Witz}}}. I think being 'flat' is a form of self preservation in a way. As you know, I've been 'flat' with difficult child at times, but what is even surprising to me is that I've been 'flat' with easy child as well. With easy child when she went to college and I missed her soo sooo sooo much and I was flat with her when we were discussing her move into the apt with her boyfriend. It is a way of detaching to avoid the painful emotions and it's perfectly acceptable.

    Your L sounds so much like my difficult child...she will always bring along a friend (she even calls them her 'buffers'!!). I've only lost my cool once when she once again brought home a friend for a dinner during the week (nothing elaborate and basically enough to feed only 2 since she hardly ever shows for dinner and never lets me know if she's coming home or not). I simply said, "Oh Bean, you should have told me you were bringing John home with you....I don't really have enough food for you two. Maybe you could throw together something for yourselves after we're done." They ended up leaving and went to Chilis. H almost interrupted me to say they could stay, but I put up my hand behind my back and he piped down quick.

    I think you should embarrass her if that's what it takes to get her to stop manipulating you. She has no problem doing it to you and H. And you doing it to her is not stooping to her level - it's setting down a boundary for yourself in a way that she may understand. It will pi$$ her off, but hey, who cares, right?

    Can you research things to do in the area where you'll be vacationing and gather all the info together and go over them with H? Perhaps planning a few things ahead of time will help him to see that it won't be "go go go" the whole time and he will still get his downtime and reading time in and you will also get to do some fun things as well. Compromise? My H always wants to plan things when we're on vacation and I like to chill on the beach. If we're not at a beach, which is rare, then I want to do things as well, but if we're on a beach, give me a book and a thermos of drink and I'm happy for the day. H tries to squeeze in something each day and gets bored if we're doing something. Also, it we're with his family, ugh, we're dragged to all these 'educational' places and events and I just want to blow my brains out after a day of looking at rockets. I mean, how many times can you go to the space station before it gets old already?? Hahaha - anyway, there have been maybe 1.3 times when I was able to convince H that we do our own thing for a day - he gets to run around and I get to chill. The challenge we no longer face is that without our girls going on vaca with us, we have to agree on what to do...whereas when they were with us we could break up as a group and do our own thing more.

    H handled M perfectly I think - good for him. As to the not helping you out, well, how about you don't make dinner a few nights in a row and see what happens? Or whatever it is that you do for him on a consistent basis - stop doing and when he asks what's up, tell him you're so tired from doing EVERYTHING else.....♥

    Hugs Witz. You're vacation will be fun because YOU will make it fun.
  6. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    I wasn't going to ruin husband's birthday by picking a fight with L's new boss. The other time, she actually called and asked if they could come but they would leave, and then half an hour after they got there she told me it was a misunderstanding, and they thought they were invited to stay. I didn't back down, I told her they were her company and not all of them were needed or invited and one of them would have to sit out. Hence the "Don't be that way, mom!" We do still need to discuss this.

    No, I won't be loading her tunes. She wants me to and has asked before. I've already turned her down on the I-Pod three b'days because she wants me to do it all for her. A shuffle was only $49, and I'm not getting her any I-Store money, either. She'll have to use it or not.

    Well, you would have to get your own I-Pod, but I'd go to the spa with you anytime, too! ;)

    I don't think there's something she's done that she doesn't want me to find out about. I think she is not a very good hostess and that by being my daughter she can ride my hostess coattails. Either way, she's out of line and we do have to talk. But I don't enjoy it any more than she does, as being a lawyer's daughter she is very good at turning everything into a debate. I know, there's no debate to be had. But with my blood pressure and other health issues, it's just not something I look forward to.

    Oh, I'm big on feeling flat with M! ;) Otherwise it's way off the charts and I'm not up for off the charts! This time he has to change before I change.
  7. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    I doubt it. He tried handing me the phone to talk to him no less than 5 minutes after I told him I had no interest in talking to him until he had proved himself just the week before. The conversation he had with M was expected by both of us, and he was repeatedly well prepped by me in advance. He will most certainly drop the ball the next time M calls out of the blue.
  8. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    Thanks, Jo I needed that. On Vacations, husband likes to eat. I can't handle all the extra weight. Daytimes, I like to sit at the pool or the beach. He sits in the room and reads. That's fine with me. Evenings he still wants to sit in the room, and do something else if you know what I mean. But after that 20 minutes, then what? And two weeks of that? Then I really would be chafed!

    We go to the same place every year, and he knows what's out there. There's cheap tours from the hotel every day. We've been on two of them in the past 15 years. I ask him to pick one, but he has not ever chosen an activity once in our marriage. He just won't. So this year I am picking an outing every other day while we are there.

    A big problem here is that he is a total cheapskate. We're going to Mexico where things are relatively cheap. I can't walk very far without tiring, so he always wants to go to the same two or three restaurants. He won't spend $5 on a taxi. I have to choose everything. I am not exaggerating when I tell you that never once in our marriage has he ever bought me a soda or a cup of coffee, let alone brought me a gift. Him choose a nice activity? Not going to happen. So, I choose everything and I mean everything. And he's not excited, because we're not spending 20 minutes in the room, if you know what I mean.
  9. hearts and roses

    hearts and roses Mind Reader

    Have you told him that he's a cheapskate? I mean, everyone once in a while, H will say to me, "You're such a cheapskate" and I always laugh and say, "Ha! Look who's calling the kettle black!" because HE is a REAL bonified cheapskate. Except when it's something he wants to do or a place he wants to eat at or try, or a show he wants to see. I don't know, sometimes he surprises me though.

    Has your H always been this way or did it start shortly after his 40th birthday? Haha - no, really, I've heard that many otherwise 'normal' spenders become real tight with the cash after they turn 40. That's what happened to my H. When we were dating and later living together he was very generous and always wanting to wine and dine us (me and the girls) and he's still generous with the girls (to a fault I think) but with me he's a tightwad. All of our money is separate and I suppose that I perpetuate this situation because, like him, I refuse to give up my personal financial independence and hand over all my money. Instead we split expenses for the home. I get a majority of the expenses for my girls, but, they ARE mine after all. But on vacas we're pretty divided. I used to become unhinged by our money situation but then I simply started making sure that I had the money to do what I wanted on vacations because I knew it'd be like pulling teeth for H to cough up the money for some fun. When daughter and I went on our 3 days in FL, we rented one of those scooters. It cost less than $75 and we had it for only 2 hours - it was the funnest time EVER. When we told H about it, he just couldn't get past the idea that we spent nearly $75 for only 2 hours on a scooter to buzz around Ft Lauderdale Beach. And we were thinking it was the best fun the entire weekend and would spend it all over again without a thought! My H is still p!ssed I bought a time share. I don't care - it's MINE and I can't wait to start using it!

    You go have fun and if he isn't a full participant in the DAYtime, then he may just miss out on YOUR full participation in the NIGHTtime. Huh~
  10. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    Oh, yeah. We've had the you're a cheapskate discussion. He knows that he is. He's ok spending bits and bobs on himself from time to time, but he never ever has so much as said "Let's stop and get a bite to eat" in 25 years. Not a coffee, not a soda, not a donut. We budget out the vacation money, I give him most of the cash, then he won't spend it. Never once in our lives have we been out at something planned where we might need 5 bucks for the no-host bar where I could actually get something to drink because I only brought my evening bag, and he left all his money at home "so I (he) won't spend it!" Not even if he can "pay himself back."

    Glad you got the buggies! I think that they would be great fun, too. Maybe husband and I will try it in Mexico, if they have a twofer seater. I know you will enjoy your timeshare. If he doesn't like it, take your girlfriends instead!
  11. meowbunny

    meowbunny New Member

    I was married to a cheapskate -- probably his only real flaw. I finally had a total hissy fit and we came up with a "compromise." I'd get $25/week (I'd raise it to $100/wk given the price of things today) to squirrel away for whatever I wanted -- a birthday present for me, an unexpected stop on the way home for a cuppa, to get a ride on a banana boat on vacation, something I wanted just because I wanted it. It ended up stopping a few battles and made things a little more fun. husband considered it part of the monthly budget so it wasn't an issue for him and it gave us a chance to do things I wanted and he couldn't grouse about the cost.

    As to your daughter and the debating thing -- mine's like that, too. If I want to get a point across that is not debatable, it is now prefaced that there will be no discussion, no debate on this one. It is a black and white issue, so nothing that she will say will make a bit of difference. If she does try to start arguing the point after that statement, I simply repeat my statement ("No guests to be brought home without prior permission by me.") and walk away. If she keeps following me, I don't say a word and just leave. It's so nice when they're old enough to leave at home alone.

    Sometimes I think our kids act the way they do deliberately. Sometimes it is done with no thought. Sometimes they are truly clueless when merrily walking all over us. Today's generation really has the best sense of entitlement of any past generation of the middle class -- it reminds me of what I've read of French royalty immediately pre-revolution. Until they are truly on their own with no mommy and daddy ready to bail them out, they have no clue how hard it can be to survive. It's part of what has brought on this housing mess -- kids think they should own a home without saving for a down payment and really can't make the monthly payment and banks bending over backwards to give it to them.
  12. hearts and roses

    hearts and roses Mind Reader

    Witz, last weekend when easy child was home we wanted to go out to dinner so easy child suggested a restaurant called Dakota's. It's not REAL pricey, but it's nice and not cheap. H says, "Whoa, no, pick someplace else - that's too expensive." I then said, "I will treat" and H says, "Oh, well than in that case, call and make a reservation!" all happy. <insert eye roll> easy child and I just laughed!

    Ours was a two person scooter - what a blast. The time share is in mine and easy child's name, so we will split it. If H wants to go with me, great. If not, I will bring a sister or friend or one of my daughter's. I want to LIVE my life. You do too!
  13. Star*

    Star* call 911

    You little hijacker you - lol Gosh I'm still getting a chuckle out of nativity off-side kick to the curb. (Sorry it's at your expense - I can just picture you so well in my mind - and I picture me sitting you your couch waiting to play scrabble with you in between turns you are reclaiming Bethlehem) I so wish we were closer. Opposite ends of the world nearly - stinks.

    Your insight into situations and no-nonsense attitude are what I was raised with. My Mom cut us NO slack. If she said it - it was done. (Not to be confused with the King and I scene where Yule Brenner as the King stands and says So it is written - let it be done) but similar nonetheless. (author also notes her Mother does not and never did resemble Yule Brenner - and he makes a lousy cowboy)

    Witz - I often wonder if there will be a time in my near future when I sit and think "YOU child are better off without me." I have to believe that eventually Dude will find a level of maturity that we can converse upon, but I don't see it in my near future. As our lives age - and our children age - we continually rethink our values. Years ago if someone had told me that I would be a different type of person due to the GFGisms - and I also came so close to sacrificing my marriage before it is a marriage - I would have said - "Well if he doesn't like it there is the door." and now? Now I find myself thinking about how old I am, how if I do make it to 80 I'm over 1/2 as old as I'll ever be and what and who do I want in and out of my life??

    I want DF in my life. I want Dude in my life - but he's going in different directions and I guess at some point I changed and became not selfish but self preserving. I want someone to help me up the stairs when I'm tired. DF does that - difficult child does not. I want someone who cooks my dinner and loves my dogs. I want someone MY age to share things with me. Maybe I can look forward to a grandchild someday in the future? Maybe THAT will be a point Dude and I can share something. In the mean time - our paths have split and while I don't intend on making them split further - I never know what Dude will do. I just know what I'm doing now - IS NOT SELFISH. I need to move forward in my own home, with my own things, and my own life - almost like being a teenager myself again. Except this time it's not my parents that I don't need mucking up my world - it's my own teen.

    As far as coming to my house with an unannounced friend? Once. The reception was not one of happiness- And we ordered 2 pizzas - went out in the pool and when we came back in - the ENTIRE 2 pizzas were gone - I mean HUGE PIZZA HUT MEAT LOVERS - GONE - and Dudes friend stood there trying to blame the dog? Not. I locked all the doors on going out - and I know for a fact due to wet carpet he tried all the doors. FOR WHAT? To steal - according to Dude -he's just nosy. Well go be nosy somewhere else. Here it will get you prosecuted. Oh and an update on little mr. nosy? (He is currently in jail at 17 - waiting to do 30 to life for possession with-intent and a bunch of other charges - he's the brother to the darling that got Dude to be the look out on the B&E felony charge) Sounds like a nice family. No father absentee mother and grandma goes to bed at 5:30PM) there are 7 kids from 10-18.

    The one time I did come in the house and found kids in MY BED? I hit the roof (so I comp you on that) I made them get up, get out - and take the sheets and spread with them. I'm a weirdo about that in my own home. I have a hard time in hotels too. So once I freaked - it was established = you don't live here - you don't lay there (points to my bed)

    As far as the birthday - I think I'd call L's boss. I think I'd pick a restaurant you liked and let him bring her, and you bring husband. Then i would get on MY cell phone and talk through dinner, and have husband wear headphones or bring a small TV to watch a ball game. He could keep it under the table on his lap. I would hand her MY gift certificate to that spa you want to go to with her - and tell her that the Shuffle didn't work out - you knew she wouldn't like it so why bother????? Then tell her if she really wants it she can have it -but (shrug) whatever. have the waiter bring a cake - and dont' ignore a call on your phone if it comes mid HAPPY BIRTHDAY DEAR LLL (ring) hello????? HELLO? Then i'd get up, tell her that you will pay the bill - that should be a present too - and skip out of there like you were kids. Swear I would.

    But see you are nice - I am not so nice. :tongue:

    And as far as M. - Yeah - you're in a good place mentally. I don't know how other than he has hurt you for so long that you just got there or you put yourself there - either way I am so proud of husband I actually gasped out loud when I read what he told him about being a big boy - BRAVO man. BRAVO!!!!!

    You never did say what you brought me back - I wrote you I wanted something pretty! lol

    You are an incredible woman, and I swear you make me laugh so hard I have to cover my mouth at work and look like the cat that just ate the bird. WHo me? Laughing? In here? HERE? In my office? no....squeeky patent leather shoe.

  14. Abbey

    Abbey Spork Queen

    I don't even know how to reply. I'm exhauseted reading the post. That should say something to you.:sad-very:

  15. Shari

    Shari IsItFridayYet?

    Ah, Witz. If it makes you feel any better, you carry your burdens with grace...

    (I know, doesn't make me feel any better, either...but hey, you still do)

    I wish I had answers for your husband (cause then I probably wouldn't be having similar issues with mine). Only suggestion I have is get outta that room, spend your own $5 on a cab (if you don't have $5, I'll send it to you) and ENJOY YOUR VACATION. Might not be perfect, but at least it won't be same ol', same ol'.

    As to the 20 minutes in the room thing...have you seen the Dominos pizza commercial? The man leans out of the room and, all romantic like says "Dominoes says we have 30 minutes" and the woman looks all bored and says "so what will we do with the other 28?"

    Ka-chow. I love that one.

    Someone suggest to me a month or so ago that next time husband was feeling romantic, maybe I should remind him how much housework is an aphrodisiac for didn't work, but it sure sounded like it should.

    Anyway, I'm rambling and hijacking YOUR post. Hugs.
  16. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    LOL! Star, you have to come get your pretty gift! I know that there is a donkey in Mexico. You like Donkeys, don't you? I just don't like those wise-acre guys.

    MB & Jo, husband and I have also been on the payday allowance system for years. He wouldn't think of spending a penny on anyone but himself, and if he does, it's only because he's been asked (honey, I have no money can you buy me a pop?) and he has to pay himself back plus interest. What's even worse is if he goes to lunch on his own, he pays himself back for that too. Huh? I gotta crack up about the restaurant "Well as long as you're paying..." That's bad!

    Shari, Oh, yeah! on the Domino's pizza commercial. I TiVo'd that one and saved it for husband. He got it, but I don't think he knows why I got it! LOL!
  17. Star*

    Star* call 911

    Yeah those 3 wise guys - One is Frank one has no sense and the other is Merle.

    That's how we figured it - Frank, Merle and the other guy with no sense.

    And I'll come git my present! Whad is it? A donkey???? OH JOY!!

    So are you going to dine and dash on your L ? I double dog dare you. Then you can wait till she calls and say HANG ON I HAVE A TEXT COMING IN - uh huh.....uh huh......oh hey can't talk now - and REALLY L - you keep bringing up the past (dinner was soooooooooo two hours ago) and it's a bummer. I can't talk now - gotta go, have another call coming in - OH it's from (click)

    It does not take one to KNOW one - but it takes KNOWING ONE to KNOW how to behave like one. And honestly - be honest here - all the years of putting up with THEIR **** and continually day after bloody day of being the GOOD nae - EXCELLENT parental example - Don't you just ONCE want to be a difficult child on a GRAND a scale as they are?

    _When Dude gets his car I will take one ride in it - I'm getting in with Soda, ketchup , french fries, a chocolate bar, milk and orange slices - and I'm not eating a single bite and I'm not getting out with anything I came in with either, and when I get back in my drive I shall THROW the car door open and RUN into the house yelling back "I'll clean that up in a minute I have to use the bathroom." and never EVER come back out of the house. :faint:
  18. Big Bad Kitty

    Big Bad Kitty lolcat

    I think that you have to call it a burro if it is in Mexico.

    Witz, I read your post, and I wish I had advice. I really don't. And I am so sorry. I have lots of hugs (and I hug good) and some spare juju that I can send you.

    I am sorry for your hurting heart.
  19. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It


    No advice, but sending gobs and gobs of hugs.

  20. Star*

    Star* call 911

    Ah......BBK if it's in Mexico it's called a Burroito......

    hey witz -find any camels?