And the "charity" begins

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by meowbunny, Jan 6, 2009.

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  1. meowbunny

    meowbunny New Member

    Turns out county health requires a verified pregnancy test -- home doesn't count. So, she found a local Christian group that issued the test for her. If she fills out a questionnaire, they'll give her all kinds of free stuff -- a crib, bassinet. etc. She's really proud of herself for finding this with the help of her friends. I just tried to not throw up.

    So, the baby will get what it needs all from the largesse of others. She won't have to earn/pay for a thing. This is so wrong to me. We give to charity. We donate things and time. We don't take.

    Yes, I know, she has no money but she's not even going to make an effort to buy what her baby needs. She, the father, the father's family and her friends actually see nothing wrong with getting things this way. The concept that he could work two jobs to help pay for the child is not in the picture. Just taking from others is the way to go.

    I am so disgusted it is hard to not just walk away from the whole thing but I know she will need me and I do love her. I'm still hoping that she will seriously consider adoption but I doubt it will happen. Even if she were to go for it, the father will not and, of course, there is no way she would tell the county she doesn't know who the father is. She wants the child support, too.
  2. Andy

    Andy Active Member

    We have a similar group in town. The items given for "free" are actually earned by the girl going through various parenting courses to earn points. For some reason, that is how I remember it being explained to me. If that is the case, than your daughter may be required to learn something these next few months to get her "free" items.

    Has she not yet figured out that in order to receive child support that the father has to work? And work a job to actually EARN the amount of support she needs? How likely is he to actually contribute to the child's needs? How about his family or are they just in it for the fun child's play? Enjoy the baby but don't get involved in its needs?
  3. meowbunny

    meowbunny New Member

    Let's see, the father's family: long-time married couple; parents have been evicted from 3 homes in past year; father works, not sure what the mother does; 3 boys none of whom have been married, all of whom have had kids; 1 daughter, know nothing about her. One brother has had about 6 jobs in the past 3 months. He seems to live at his parents and my daughter's apartment about equally. Contributes nothing to either household.

    The father works. He was fired as a line cook because he worked too slow and didn't do his cleanup. He was ultimately rehired as a busboy.

    From what I could figure out, my daughter has paid the majority of the bills at the apartment. (Remember, these two were "just friends," he has a different girl friend every other week. It's a shame my daughter decided to be part of that number.) He sometimes paid his half of the rent but then would not have funds for utilities or food or something. According to my daughter, he is lazy, sloppy and dirty and does nothing to help around the apartment (not quite true given that I was over there once and he was cleaning the apartment, but it was a total pigsty -- up to and including a dirty fork on the stairs).

    Sadly, they're a good match in many ways. My child is sloppy. She doesn't think she is dirty but given the condition of her bedroom and bathroom here, she can fit in the dirty category quite easily. She does work hard and does what she can to keep her job unless her friends are all unemployed; then she will get fired just to be with them. However, she is exceedingly lazy when not working. She will happily sleep until 2:00 pm, get up and go to work or get up and watch television. Buying something she wants frequently comes before worrying about paying a bill.

    These are not two people ready to be parents. His parents will happily babysit, dote on the baby but they are certainly not someone I would want as examples for my child or grandchild, given their track records and the track records of their children.

    Honestly, I do think the boy/man (he's 26, I think) will try to be a father and support his child given the opportunity. I also think the reality is that he will do as his brothers have done. Stay at a minimum-wage job and have no chance of supporting a child. He and his family have no drive nor ambition. Living off of others is just fine.

    Oh, and this charitable organization doesn't require parenting classes. The questionnaire is to make sure you aren't going to have an abortion and are truly low income. So, it really is something for nothing. UGH UGH UGH!!!!

    Okay, I could probably go on for about 20 more pages but I'll just leave it that I am really unhappy about this whole situation. I hate that my child is willing to take from others. I hate that the father is who he is. I hate that her friends are encouraging her having and keeping this baby. There is nothing right about the whole thing!
  4. dreamer

    dreamer New Member

    I'm a little confused and a little sad. I understand you give to charity, but sometimes people have to learn to also accept as well, and by being able to accept graciously, it gives others an opportunity to feel the goodness of giving.
    When you give, what goes thru your mind about the possible recipients of your gifts/donations?

    Makeing life be difficult and forcing financial hardship onto young/immature parents to be might not teach them anything. It might crush them and the victim would be the new baby. The new baby is an innocent.
    By helping to ease the financial strains of impending parenthood, it often helps give the new parents to be the strength and ability to learn to be better parents, to do some matureing and growing. And many people who have at one time been recipients of charity later become quite charitable themself, haveing lived thru understanding first hand how the pay it forward system works.

    Many of the donated items like the cribs etc are given to agencies like this expressly for young people who have "had a lapse in judgement" "gotten caught up in the moment" "made a mistake" "had an accident" etc. It serves no good purpose to try tomake things more difficult, it would not be healthy for the unborn baby. The young mothers here are extremely generous and shareing and giving, createing their own little co-ops, shareing all their baby supplies, equipment, pooling their resources, car pooling, shareing babysitting with each other, they are actually seeming to be learning cooperative living much better than older, more secure adult women I know. I know this is only "my" personal observation here, and only "my" personal experience, but, I have been in awe of these young mothers. Yes, sadly several of my difficult children peers have become mothers in the last 2 years, and sadly several of my PCs pers have also surprisingly become mothers. But watching them, opening my home to them...I have been very pleasantly surprised.
    These girls and the young men have done a far better job being supportive and helpful to each other than any group of people I have EVER personally witnessed in my life.

    Yes, they come here, with babies in tow...they gather and pull out the course schedules for the college, their work schedules, they compare, re-arrange, take notes, and register for classes in such ways as to help each other out to babysit each others kids, they bring equipment, baby supplies and clothes, and swap......they teach each other, they share they hold each others hands, encourage each other, far more than any of my friends or family ever did, even tho I was 30 years old, emplyed and owned my own home, and very invlved in many church functions etc......these young girls are surpriseing me daily.
    Yes, some did accept "charity" and those first girls have passed it on, payed it forward, and the activities of these girls has changed from partying and makeup parties to play dates with babies, with the fathers here as well.

    Yes, some of them did get things from charity....and then they shared..and they learned first hand how beneficial it is to help someone, becuz they have been helped, so they know.
    Yes, I have a circle now of about 6 girls, 6 babies and 5 young men.....approx half are difficult children.....who 3 years ago were drinking and drugging......and approx half who were cheerleaders, debate team and athletes.....and my easy child who is quite academic......
    and for the last 18 months, they are ALL working together, shareing, helping each other, supportive of each other.....Their idea of a big friday nite is to get together with all the babies, and all these very yung adults will swap the clothes back and forth, in nice weather hang out at the park playground, with kids in swings, and i sandbox, or in cold weather, hang out here, with teething rings and blocks and popcorn...they pitch in and share their work schedules, share the babysitting.....

    Yes, they got handouts......yes they got charity.......
    they learned first hand how helpful getting help can be, so they are seeming to me to be more willing to BE more helpful back, now. Prior to recieving help, "charity" was not concrete, it was a vague abstract concept to them...the people who might recieve any help was they were not as interested in being charitable...they had no reason to understand the value of networking....or shareing........and now they do.

    Yes, I know not everyone rises to the occasion....but sometimes it can be surprising and remarkable, the way female maternal hormones can kick in and do what years of teaching, preaching and educating sometimes cannot accomplish.

    Many parents here need different kinds of help with their difficult children. Even very mature very secure and stable parents need help on occasion. People here need respite, and mentors, and financial assistance for a wide variety of reasons. Parenting can be very overwhelming, but it can also change people. Your difficult child has youth on her side. She may not have wisdom......she may not have money, and she may not have ambition and motivation yet......
    But noone has a crystal ball.
    Let the agencies etc help her. Thats what they are there for, thats what they do. THats how they feel good, to help people who find themself in a not so great situation, no matter if the not so great situation is their own fault or not. People do make mistakes, all kinds of people make mistakes. Highly intelligent people make mistakes, and difficult children surely make mistakes. Sure some mistakes have bigger consequences than others, and some people can and do learn and or grow from their mistakes.

    I wish we could wave a magic wand ad turn back the clock and make your difficult child be how she was a few months ago, non pregnant......but noone can do that, now. Yes, life has been irreversibly changed. Any option now will still leave behind long term changes. Yes, miscarriage, abortion, giving a baby up for adoption.....or keeping the baby.
    Your difficult child has to make the choice SHE can live with, the choice SHE can look at herself in the mirror over. ANd that decision might not be the same decision YOU might make.
    No, you do not have to be supportive of her, no, you do not have to do anything you do not want to do. BUT those agencies are there...and they have been there, doing exactly this kind of charity for these very same reasons for a long long time. Just becuz they offer that type of help does not mean people go out deliberately and get themself into this kind of situation. But this kind of help helps make things a little betetr for these unborn babies. Whether your daughter keeps her baby or eventually changes her mind and gives it up-----it is still better for there to be good prenatal care, and help for mother to bes peace of mind. That creates a healthier baby. It is societys investment in the future. No matter what your daughter ultimately does, a healthy baby is still best for EVERYONE ..includeing our society.

    I'm curious what goes thru your mind about recipients when you give to charity?
    My brother is a minister. He once told me he was very very angry..he helped a young family who came to him for help-----I mean his church helped.....and a week later my brother saw the young father working in a walmart, and my brother was quite angry - felt like he had been duped, scammed.....I asked my brother if he ever asked this young family WHY they needed help? My brother dmitted he did not. I told my brother to go and ask the family about themselves. I let my brother know that just becuz the dad had a job did not mean they could not have hard times. My brother did not understand what I meant. He went and fund out the young mom had been battling cancer, and the copays on their insurance were enormous.....the childcare costs were extreme, becuz mama had been in hospital for bone marrow transplant.....One set of grandparents, the father had had a stroke, was now a new quadriplegic, and the other grandparents lived across the country, and had an adult child at home with downs syndrome. The young father had had a better job, but in all the chaos of haveing the young wife battleing for her life, he lost his great job, and was working at walmart for now.
    My minister brother came away with a life lesson.

    Yes, young women, girls, have been getting pregnant before marriage for centuries....and yes, it can be a hard life. But I do not know why anyone who loves the girls would want to make it any harder than it is. I do not mean that anyone should take over for them.or make it a cakewalk.....but, why make it hard? Parenting is hard for mature professional married women.

    Life is full of things that happen that we do not choose. Life is full of things that happen that noone deserves. Life is not fair. And people make mistakes.

    Yeah, Im sensitive. I was 30 and maried and had good extended family relationships, my husband was a computer professional in the 1970s and 80s....and a Marine Vet of 13 yrs. I was a hard wrker...waited tables lived on streets since age 12....put myself thru realtor school, cosmetology school, supported my divorced in laws, buried my first husband at 25....and had my difficult child. And then my husband fell terribly mentally ill, delayed onset psychotic combat PTSD. Our disability insurance company we bought policy from as newlyweds went bankrupt.....MY husband was too ill, my difficult child quite difficult......and my family decided I deserved better....I did not leave my my family abandoned me.

    Life was HARD. Ha! Life growing up for me was hard,, whew! I thought I paid my dues.....thought I had done my homework properly.
    I was On My Own with a severely mentally ill combat vet, and a difficult child.....then I had easy child.....never dreamed that would happen, I had 14 miscarriages......and surprise, had my son....special needs. And then? Wham! My autoimmune illness struck me down just after I finished nurseing school.and I was a quadriplegic.

    Yes, my family I came from, my mom and siblings..they pointed fingers and said see? You should have left your husband when he first got sick.
    Nope, they were no help, no support, not even moral support.
    Life can be SO hard.

    No, there was not respite here. no, there was not wrap around here.

    Life was VERY hard.

    Why did I not leave my husband? Becuz I LOVED him- he was my best friend in the whole world.
    He did not choose to fall into catatonia. He did not choose to disassociate.
    I did not choose to lose ability to walk, or use my hands feet arms and legs.
    I loved him, I loved our children.....and yes.we kinda DID live on love.
    My mom married 3 times in all, each time for better finances. My one brother married for love and worked his fingers to the other brother became a minister, but in a very elite sister married extreme wealth. My 30 yrs younger than me brother grew up wealthy, but lost his dad at age 10 and mom at age 18 and our sister stole all the assets and my once wealthy brother is now destitute.....(I have invited him here)

    Our house is 900 sq feet. My husband has been on soc sec disability since 1990. His cognitive function is infant level. Most of the time, anyway. I have been on soc sec disability ----ug, paid at my pay rate of being a coffee shop waitress....since 2000.
    easy child had a full academic scholarship to a private university should have started this fall past. Except her preg made her life threateningly ill, her heart was affected and so were her kidneys. SO she transfered to our community college. ANd made straight As first semester. (YAY)
    Soooooo.......her and baby will be living here.
    AT least till she is done with college.

    I lived the very hard life on the streets. I worked the jobs 20 hours a day 6-7 days a week, since I was 12 years old. I canot bear the idea of my child working quite that many hours like I did and still not haveing enough money for food or dentists visits or a safe car......or living in rat infested places or firetraps etc etc. ANd I cannot cannot bear the idea of MY grandchild living that way either.

    My hope is that I teach by example.I say I love them, I put action behind my words. I am the role model for how I want my kids to treat other people. Yes, my child MIGHT accept help from some agency.BUT......I also expect her to GIVE in some way back somewhere, as well.
    Peole can all pool their gifts. My difficult child has been helping with the newsletter on a computer for our county ANimal COntrol in a volunteer capacity. easy child has been involved with Operation Snowball, as a volunteer counselor for 7 years and has been contributing to Big Brothers Big SIstser for 2 years. My son is only 13 but this morning he begged me to let him donate blood? (where did THAT come from? LOL) and HE has just begun working with Illinois teen institude as a volunteer.

    Yes, sometimes people need to take, or recieve......and sometimes they need to take or recieve FIRST before they SEE the value...and then often they will then learn to GIVE.

    Please do not begrudge your daughter the things she got or will get from a helping agency. Help her LEARN that giving helps the world go around, but remember in your heart.....learning to ACCEPT is giving someone else the gift of giving.
    Remember too, that if you are not able to be there helping, there will be others who will likely be willing to step in TO help her. And yes, they most likely will be total strangers, helping agencies.....and no, of course they do not know she is a difficult their eyes she is a girl who made a mistake. And they will be willing to help her becuz it makes THEM feel good.
  5. meowbunny

    meowbunny New Member

    Dreamer, I understand that people do need help sometimes. Hard times do happen. Illnesses happen. Things we can't overcome happen. However, for her to go looking for everything she can get is wrong. Period.

    Frankly, I would prefer if you just did not respond to my threads. I'm venting. I'm not telling my child how wrong and immoral I think what she is doing but that doesn't mean I don't feel that way.

    I will support her as much as I can. I have said that repeatedly. I'm sorry you have had a hard life. Mine hasn't been easy the past few years but I will survive. So will my daughter with my help. I don't have to approve of her choices and I certainly cannot condone her present behavior. But don't tell me to not begrudge what she gets without earning it and with no real need other than getting pregnant.

    This is a healthy young woman and the father is a healthy young man. He could get two jobs if needed. She's physically capable of working for several more months. Instead, she's taking time off from work so she can see what she can get for free. This is not right and is downright inexcusable.
  6. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    MB, you are absolutely right about the way that you feel about this. It isn't the way you raised her to be. He isn't a fit parent, and she's going to be a mom for all of the wrong reasons. And it's not unreasonable to assume that she is going to use her situation to garner sympathy and "stuff" and to keep herself from having to get a a job. It's just sad that she is choosing to throw away a chance at a better life than living off of handouts from charities.

    This is a really long road. She's on track to make a lot of bad decisions. I don't blame you at all for being this upset with her. And the county. If the county demands a verified pregnancy test, the county should provide it, but that's another discussion altogether. It's sad that whoever is offering the crib and the this and that aren't also offering a babysitter and college funding so that she can get a decent job and make a better life for herself instead of planning how to live on the dole.

    Get as angry as you need to and vent all you want. Then pull yourself together so that you can face up to tomorrow. She'll be pulling some other stunt that will get your goat up, I'm sure. There will be a day that she asks for your advice. In the meantime all you can do is let whatever she is up to blow right over your head because you shouldn't have to waste your energy being angry about her knuckleheaded decision. You have made your position about what type of a grandparent you can be very clear. There will be lots of tomorrows to live with. Let her be, but please don't be so angry at her. It's not going to change a thing and it will drive a wedge between you when she might need to ask for your advice.

    Big hugs
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2009
  7. dreamer

    dreamer New Member

    I kno many many people who unless they do have kids would sleep long wierd hours, not be as clean as you might hope etc. I also know lots of professional "success" stories who are lazy and disorganized and slobs at home. CHildless people ofen have no compelling reason to keep more regular hours or clean homes....
    Yes, my dtr attended something today where they have guest speakers and do role playing, and swap childcare items.and they earn coupons they can redeem for childcare itmes.....they learn how to change diapers, how to tell if baby is sick.....the daddies can attend, too. this group is specific for teen parents..BUT I remember my wealthy sister going to similar, and she was neither low income nor a teen or single......but there was still a similar thing just for new mothers, any age, any income......

    It can be hard..culture shock to see how different differnt families of my kids friends live. The diffierent lifestyles, values, levels of housekeeping etc. The different priorities different people have in life.

    I first began to notice when I worked in the nurseing home. My own mother was the oldest person I knew in my life (her parents were gone before I was born, and she was 15 when I was born) I had no clue what an elderly person was.LOL. I remember we had many patients who had no living family, some had outlived all family...(it was the County Nurseing home.....formerly called the alsmhouse or poor house) we had some people who NEVER had visitors.....and then I would be around town and realize some of the people around town were related to the people I was takeing care of.......and they NEVER went to visit. Yes those of us who worked there would wonder, what kind of person was our patient to have family so close who NEVER came to visit? Sure we figured out, hmmm.our patient must have been a real jerk......or......sometimes it was the patients family that were the jerks.
    Then we got some new nurses in who came from another country......and THOSE nurses sure made us think even more.......they asked us outright--how can you DO this to your elderly....bring them here and leave them here, why arent you taking them to your house and taking care of them? becuz we have to go to work? Our new nurses had different value systems.......

    Yesterday my easy child and her boyfriend were sitting discussing various family members ....easy child was trying to explain my FAVORITE aunt to boyfriend. My fav aunt was .mentally challeenged. Formal education ended by grade 6. She was..slow. She was also very large, and had at one time worked as a fat lady in a circus, seriously. she was 6 ft 4 and weighted 700 pounds when I was little. She had this weird tiny house with no floor, just dirt, ceilings were only 5 ft high, so she had to walk around stopped over. She was working graveyard shift in a factory. She was my dads oldest sister....she lived next door to my moms family.and as a good neighbor, she would do the home nurseing of my moms dying mother while my mom was at school. Later my moms one sister was in a TB sanitarium..and my dads sister took in all 7 of my moms sisters kids while moms sister was in sanitarium. This included the 3 kids born to my aunt while she lved in the TB sanitarium. (yeesh)
    Dads sister did this for free. in addition to watching me.......and many neighbor kids.
    when my brother was born, she took him, too.....fed all of us, was at all my aunts and uncles beck and call, 24 7.....
    everyone judged her harsh, becuz she was not very smart at all........and her home was awful, decrepit etc......and tiny......(2 rooms) aunt NEVER turned AYONE away.ever. My aunt had very little, and never had enough food, BUT she always fed EVERYONE who was within a mile.
    She also let anyone and everyone sleep there. You could wake up any given day and find people smushed all over her tiny house, in chairs, on the floor, even sleeping on sink, in bathtub and on kitchen table.

    She sure had a VERY different value system than most other people I knew. As everyone grew up and noone needed her to babysit or feed them anymore, most everyone moved on and away. My aunts health began to decline. She could not work. As a teen, I realized she was not getting proper nutrition, medical care etc.I wound up supporting her.......lovingly......everyone else made fun of her, citicized her etc. She was dirty....she was messy.......she was uneducated.....not smart.look she did not provide for HERSELF. Nope, she sure didn't. Instead she was the most giving person I ever met......and I felt honored and blessed to give back to her.

    Her values were extremely and vastly different from anyone else I have ever met. BUT that woman OOOZED love and shareing to the most huge degree ever. Her heart was pure unconditional love for anyone and everyone. And when I was a difficult young teen, she took me in.put me to work in a boarding house......not for money but for meals, not yummy meals, but belly filling mels.

    Her personal value system was so different, and she was criticized, but it is her life lessons that run like a videotape thru my mind every single day.

    SOmetimes things are not how they seem on the surface. and somethings do not seem so important, but......sometimes they are.

    My brother has a PhD and is a minister his wife is a social worker. My sister married extreme wealth- her husband is a medical professional in a wealthy family. If I were to die tomorrow..I would NOT (and I put it in writing) let any of my siblings finish raising my children. They are cold heartless noncareing people. My other brother drives a truck. He lives in a tiny house. His wife does not work......he is the ONLY one I consider to have enough heart to take care of MY children.

    I have this tiny tiny house. I do not work, my husband does not work.....we have 900 sq ft. and almost daily we have between 3 and 6 EXTRA teens and young adults, and now often many toddlers and babies hanging around here with us. If you had told me 5 years ago it would be like this, I would have said NO. I did not think I liked kids much, especially older kids.
    These kids come and hang out and visit with me, and with husband.......they seek us out, they seek out not just the kid of mine they came to hang out with. but all the kids intermix. It sure is not becuz we have any cool videogames. Or great snacks. Or much room to fit. and we only have one bathroom.

    I think they come becuz my aunt..we share what we do have.....and we care. One of PCs friends who comes lives in a huge mansion with a pool inside the house and a bowling alley........he likes to come here better than going home. even when I ask him to help me take out the garbage. LOL.

    Your daughter might not mind the babys fathers family as much as you think.
  8. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful


    I've been reading and not replying because well, I do try not to hurt anyone if I can help it. And what I've got to say I'm sure you're not going to like. Although it's not in any way meant to hurt you. I do feel it needs to be said. And I hope I can find a tactful way to say it.

    Your daughter being pregnant is not the end of the world, not for her or for you. And this baby is certainly not going to ruin her life. Only she can make the decisions that will determine the course her life will take. Young women have gotten pregnant out of wedlock for thousands of years, and will continue to do so. It happens. Most become wonderful parents and providers for their children. And as for those who don't, well....let's be realistic, there are plenty of non difficult child parents out there who stink at parenting and providing for their children. Being married at conception or birth of a child has nothing to do with it.

    I'm sorry but I take offense at your attitude toward charity. It is absurd. Climb down off your high horse and join the real world. If there were only those people who "give" to charity, who in the heck would be receiving it?? If you don't want to help difficult child financially, that's your choice. But if you don't, someone else is going to step in and do it. There is nothing wrong with that. difficult child must qualify for the assistance to get it. They don't just say "Here, we've got all this to give so come and get it" sheesh

    Personally, I happen to think it responsible of difficult child to go out and find services she will need to help her with the baby given her current situation. She went on her own to do this. Sounds pretty grown up to me. So she doesn't have a job that pays a fortune. Ok. Fine. But she has one. Give her some credit. Having a low income job isn't a crime, regardless of whether or not you're a difficult child. Nor is it morally wrong. You say she should work 2 jobs while pregnant.......Let's get real. When she keels over from exhaustion or starts having pregnancy complications due to over work, do you plan to take her in?

    So what if she receives some items from this organization for the baby. That is what the organization is there for. Would you prefer the infant sleep in a dresser drawer? Do without clothing because difficult child might not be able to afford it? What about WIC and food stamps? I suppose those are wrong, even though they will keep both her and the baby healthy, giving the child a chance at a better start?

    You want difficult child to act like a grown up. She's acting like one.

    No. The situation is not perfect. It would be better for her to have her GED. It might be better for her to have a college degree. True. But she has neither and is doing the best she can with what she has. How many times do we advise parents here on the board to use these "charities" to their benefit? Or is it only morally wrong for your child to do so?

    You've spoken of "supporting" her.

    How? Because I'm not seeing it at all. All I've seen is judgement and criticism. And odds are, even if you haven't spoken them aloud to difficult child, she's reading it in your body language and attitude. You've decided her life is over because of this baby. Which is nonsense.

    And if you haven't guessed.......yes I'm steamed. I'm ticked off for difficult child, and she's not even my kid.

    Why am I steamed? Because so far every move she makes is wrong as far as your concerned. If she wants to keep the baby, it's wrong. Why? Because she is low income and unmarried and will have to use the aide of govt programs and charities. As I recall you seem to believe that babies/children "suffer" do to such programs. Reality check. I was raised with such programs. (happened to turn out just fine, thank you) Four out of five of my grandchildren currently use those programs and charities. And surprise! They're as happy and well rounded as any other child. Bigger surprise, their parents aren't lazy, good for nothings "taking advantage" of either the system or the charities they use. All involved parents work to the best of their ability and or go to school fulltime. And bigger surprise! They happen to give back to those same charities whenever they have the opportunity.:surprise:

    I know you love difficult child. So how about truely supporting her? Sure, she went to a charity for things for the baby. Great! She didn't come to you with her hand out expecting you to provide, did she? She's not waiting until the baby gets here to figure out how she's going to feed, clothe, and provide the things it needs. Good for her. If she goes to WIC and such and happens to qualify.... Wonderful. She's making sure that she and the baby have what the nutrition they need to be healthy. Does she want to get her GED? Terrific! Let's find a way to make it happen before the baby gets here. She thinks college is a good idea? JUMP on it! There is FASFA and welfare provides the money for the sitter.

    Growning up doesn't happen all at once. Often it's done in baby steps. Those baby steps aren't always what we'd like them to be. But you take what progress you've got to work with and keep supporting them forward. If difficult child has to make use of every darn govt service and charity out there in order to provide a safe home for this baby while getting her GED and college education, I say cheer her on. That's why they are there. To help people improve their lives.

    So my friend, now that I've written a book. difficult child can do it. Baby or no baby, she can be anything she wants to be. There is nothing stopping her. But it's a heck of less scarier road when you've got someone there reminding you of that and cheering you on, instead of deciding that you're life, and the life of your child is ruined.

    difficult child is 22. She is an adult. You say you want her to act like one. Just because you would prefer she terminate the pregnancy for reasons you believe are sound, doesn't mean that difficult child has to agree with you. Your "moral" standards are not necessarily hers. That doesn't necessarily make hers invalid or wrong.

    If I've hurt you, I'm sorry. It wasn't my intention. I think you've gotten carried away in your own feelings and emotions and a reality check was in order.

  9. dreamer

    dreamer New Member

    please accept my apologies - I misunderstood, and did not realize you did not want any different perspective or someone elses experiences or whatever. I wont reply anymore. I'm sorry. I do wish you and your daughter the best of luck.
    I'm sorry I was posting my last post while you were posting your reply back to me.
  10. meowbunny

    meowbunny New Member

    DL, I did not say she should take two jobs. I said the father should.

    Honestly, I understand her needing medical assistance and have no problem with that. But the actively seeking out what she can get from wherever for no other reason than because she is pregnant is my issue. She made the choice. She should not be asking the state to pay for that choice. She should not be asking other people to give her stuff.

    If she were ill; if the father were ill; if there were complications to the pregnancy, it would be different. To me, that's what charity is for. That's what state assistance is for -- to help those who have no other avenues, who need help. She is healthy. The baby's father is healthy. There is no reason nor excuse for her to lie to state agencies (she's telling them she lives alone and has no support whatsoever), to actively search out what charities will give her things.

    As I said, she needs the medical assistance and I'm totally for her getting that. She has no insurance. She is working. She has no way to get medical care without help. That's a lot different from asking for every dime she can get out of the state and charities. That's reprehensible.

    by the way -- She has not said she is getting any of this aid to further her education. She's getting it because she can, which is pretty much what I thought she would do the second she told me she was pregnant. She may change after the baby is born and try to improve her life so that her baby's life is improved. For now, that's not the case.

    As I said, she will be a great mother. There is no question of that in my mind. She will love this child unconditionally. Whether she will sacrifice for a baby, I'm not sure but I think so. I'm angry at her stupidity. This was not a boy friend. This was a week or two of friends with fringe benefits. To not use protection was inexcusable. She was just starting to get her life together and making some real, obtainable plans for her future. Now, her only plans are to see what she can get from what agency.

    As to terminating the pregnancy, I knew that was never a choice she could make and never suggested nor implied it to her. She would not have been able to live with that. I do hope she will consider adoption. She does not have any serious genetic issues that we know of. If she could be strong enough to give her child to someone who would truly cherish it, I think it would be a blessing. Again, I'm not sure she is emotionally capable of doing that and I won't push. I will suggest that option but I will accept whatever decision she makes.

    I won't pretend to her that I'm thrilled she's pregnant. At the same time, I won't tell her what I think of some of her choices while being pregnant. As I told her, I will love the baby if for no other reason than because it is part of her and I love her. I will be there for her as much as I can. I won't voice my disapproval of some of her choices while she's pregnant. I'll even do my very best to not let them show in any way.

    However, to me, this baby is a disaster at this time. Her willingness, no desire, to find the easy way out is nauseating. Sadly, she's doing exactly what I thought she would do -- find whatever avenues are available to her that she doesn't have to work for. All I can do is hope that she sees this is not the example she wants to give her child and work to truly better herself. We shall see.

    So, sorry, I won't be getting off of my high horse any time soon.
  11. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Woah nelly! Oh, no you don't! You don't get to have your cake and eat it too.

    Excuse me? So let me understand. It is her decision to keep the baby. So your stand is that the state shouldn't be responsible for the baby, correct? Then why is it ok for the state to pay for the medical care for her and the baby? Because if she's seeking medical assistance because of this pregnancy, it's exactly the same thing. In addition, she shouldn't seek out and use these services in order to work or go to school for the same reason. The state shouldn't be responsible for the care of a child she chose to keep. She should have to pull herself up by her bootstraps and make it happen all by herself. Too bad, so sad. Well, then. I guess your opinion that her life is over is pretty darn accurate.

    Good grief. I thought we'd gotten past the dark ages. difficult child made a mistake, a stupid one. Granted. It happens. Life goes on.

    Time to be a bit realistic. difficult child is pregnant. Her job isn't great because she didn't finish hs and doesn't have the education for a great job. The father of this baby is a lazy "friend" not even emotionally committed to difficult child, let alone the baby. Despite what the father says at the moment, he can skip out at any given moment and not be required to do anything except pay minimal child support. Because I'm assuming if the father is as lazy as you say, he's either not going to work, or not have a decent job.

    So? What do you expect the girl to do? You've already stated firmly that you have no intention of helping her at all financially. Nothing wrong with that. I happen to take that stand myself.

    So, difficult child has a crappola job and a baby on the way. Plus an "iffy" Daddy to be at best. She is determined to keep her baby. Not that surprising really. Now, with this crappola job, how do you expect her to feed, clothe, and provide the items this child is going to need if she doesn't seek out the help of others? Would you prefer, in order for difficult child to meet your high moral standards, that she and the baby do without the basic necessities of life? Because if she tries to do it your way, she's going to get to try to choose between food, clothing, utitilities, and rent. Which one would you prefer her to leave out?

    difficult child has the right to keep this child whether she's rich or poor as dirt. There is no right or wrong to that decision. She is going to need to seek the assistance of services and charities until such a time that she can do it alone. If she attempts to do it the wrong way, she'll learn the hard way that the system doesn't work that way. She's young and inexperienced. She'll learn whether she wants to or not. Hopefully along the way, she'll also learn that she's going to need an education to survive. As you said, we'll have to wait and see on that one.

    It is not reprehensible to seek out govt services and charities when you're poor and in need of help. It's reality. Obviously one you've never had to face. And you insult every member of this board who are themselves, or have family members who are needing such services to survive.
  12. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Hi. Look, I'm not invalidating your feelings. These are MY feelngs which you can chose to flush down the toilet.
    You don't like babies and that's fine. A lot of people don't. But if my daughter would have done this (Lord knows she did a lot of stupid things) I would have focused on the baby, not her. And I would have never told her to give it up for adoption, even though I adopted four kids. Being adopted has caused unique problems for them that I had never anticipated. It's not a piece of cake either, no matter how much they are loved. There is also no guarantee than an adopted couple would be a good one or a good match for your daughter's child. I adopted one boy who should have gone to another family--he doesn't speak to us anymore (you know that story). I also don't think it's a big deal that she got things that her baby (your grandchild) will need. I give to charity all the time, but if I needed to use charity at some point in my life--or if my children did--I would and I wouldn't feel guilty. My mom used to have the attitude that you didn't "take." So until I was 50 I never got help for my disability. So now I'm on disability and I guess I"m a "taker." But I still give too. When my daughter outgrows her clothes we give them to a few families we know who have made bad choices--too many children, no marriage, trying to catch up. In my opinion only, I can think of things worse than the blessings of a beautiful new baby so that I can dote on it. One is drugs. I wish my ex-difficult child had gotten pregnant rather than taking drugs. At least some good comes out of a pregnancy. Anyway, you're one of my favorite posters and I'm just throwing out my own thoughts at you, and hope you aren't upset because you are the last person here I would want to upset. Honest!!!! I hope I"m not being obnoxious--I just wanted to offer my personal perspective, which is only worth my own .02. I admit it's easy to talk because my daughters aren't pregnant either. (((Hugs))) I can feel the pain coming from you and the disappointment in your daughter's choices. But, honestly, there is hope for everyone. Maybe this will mature her. Good luck. I'll be quiet now.
  13. judi

    judi Active Member

    MB - this is obviously a very hard topic for you to digest. I'm sorry for your continued stress over this.

    I can't speak to the issue of a pregnant daughter as I only had sons. However, he has a child. husband and I do fully support our grandson. This is our decision and is morally right for us. We have been very, very blessed and do not want our grandson to suffer due to the actions of his parents. The reason I tell you this, is because what was right for my family, might not be what you can or are willing to do.

    That's okay. I've been on this site for a long time (lol). During that time, I have received a lot of advice, some of which I could use and was very thoughtful and thought-provoking but I have also received advice which made me shake my head. So...we take what we can use, think about the other opinions and maybe that will provoke some other solution.

    I wish you peace with whatever decisions you make. I will always live with regrets over my son, but none over my grandson.
  14. meowbunny

    meowbunny New Member

    I wish I could explain my objections to what she is doing. It is not about the getting help where it is honestly needed, such as medical care. That's what the system is all about. It is the actively seeking every free thing she can get, whether she may need it or not. It is the plans to quit work as soon as possible and have welfare take care of her (she has not quite discovered that welfare has changed and she needs to be a lot more than just pregnant to get the kind of assistance she thinks she is going to get). If she were using assistance to give herself and her child a future, that would be a lot different from her using that assistance to do nothing but be a mom. She's like a little girl playing mommy and expecting everyone else to pay for the doll and its accrouments. She'll love the doll, cherish it, be a good mommy to it, but others will be footing the bill.

    Sadly, my daughter is going to be one of those who make it so hard for those who need financial help. She'll take it for every dime and thing she can get. Need is not factored in. If she were to take the aid now to give herself and her child a future, then I'd swallow and accept what she is doing. That is why welfare was created -- to give you a start, to help you when you have no other avenues available. It was and is abused by some to the detriment of those who use it properly.

    MWM, I do understand that adopted kids have special issues. I do plan to read the book you mentioned simply because I'm hoping it will open up a few avenues about my child's feelings -- something she has refused to share with anyone. However, the alternative is an infant living in poverty with a mother who is not nearly ready to be a parent. Yes, the baby may help her grow up but it is a MAY, not a given. I've seen too many kids in the system because the parents just weren't ready to be parents. She couldn't even take care of her beloved cat. When she stayed here to watch the house and take care of the cats, they went at least one day if not more without food or water. I don't want this to happen to any baby.

    My attitude towards the baby will more than likely change. Remember, I only learned about it last Saturday. It is part of my child and that automatically means it has a lot of good qualities that I can't help but love. I doubt I will ever really be happy about her being pregnant this way.

    This pregnancy came about out of complete stupidity. Since the father hadn't conceived a child previously, he really did think he couldn't have kids. DUH This wasn't a young woman needing something to love so badly she would do anything to have that unconditional love. This wasn't a girl who didn't know better than to use protection. This was a young, immature woman who didn't think about what she was doing and this is the result. I expected this at 17. I didn't expect it today.

    Now, if my attitude about the whole thing bothers you, tell me to go away and shut up. It's not going to change because it is not your attitude. The baby will not come first to me. That's my daughter's job to put the baby first. She is my child and she will always come first. I am not proud of her choices nor her actions right now. I won't discuss my attitude with her but that doesn't mean I don't have to like it.

    Telling me to feel differently or implying that my feelings are not what I should be feeling is not fair. Telling me my actions are wrong, yes, that's fair. But I can't change my feelings any more than you can. Right now I'm raw and everything is on the surface being abraided into open sores every time she calls me and tells me of something else she is doing or going to do to get stuff. To be told by people I thought would understand just makes the open wound ooze. Thanks, but no thanks.
  15. WhymeMom?

    WhymeMom? No real answers to life..

    meowbunny, I have been down this road a few times, but with my son......the big difference is my son is at least smart enough to pick responsible women (exception is when it comes to birth control)........Both of the women he got pregnant had jobs and are working hard to become good mothers, actually the first is now married and had her new husband adopt the kids(2)....... not even sure he knows this as I have not been in contact with him for over a year....... I have no doubt he would be a loving father, he just isn't capable of being a law abiding citizen...... in my mind, not a good start for a child, to have to explain that daddy is "away" (in jail)....... I do agree there is help out there available and your daughter has as much right as the next person to ask for it, but when she may be able to work or at least have support from the baby's daddy who would be able to work then the help she receives might be available to someone who has more dire need for the help.......this decision rests with the giving agency(s) so they can only go on the information long as she is honest in telling her circumstances let them decide.......
    I'm with you in thinking "not the best start in life" for a child, but few people start with the best choices anyway, so detachment is my choice....... Unfortunately I can only enjoy pictures of my first grandchildren, because I don't think I could have my heart ripped out again after raising my son....... thinking of you and hope the baby is healthy and "mom" makes some good decisions about her/baby's future.........
  16. meowbunny

    meowbunny New Member

    Judi, she's already lying to the agencies. Her friends have worked the system in the past and are telling her their mistakes -- she's being very careful to follow their advice. Let's hope that she doesn't get caught since I understand the penalities are pretty harsh, including jail time. So, they will not know she is sharing an apartment with the father. She's using a different address than his. As I said, the easy way out.
  17. CrazyinVA

    CrazyinVA Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I do understand your frustration at your difficult child and her attitude. I think the key here is to do your best to remember what is best for the baby. If her getting all the free stuff she can get means the baby will have more of what it needs, then so be it. If NOT doing that means the baby may not have proper nutrition, or clothing, or even decent shelter, that would be a tragedy. Absolutely, if difficult child and the father are able to work to support this child, they should be doing that .. .but the situation is what it is. Sadly some people milk the system for all it's worth At least getting services means the baby will be better off. And, there's always the chance her attitude will change down the road. Forgive me. I'm famous for always trying to find the good in something, even if it's a tiny sliver of good!

    Right now, I know part of your reaction is that it's just another thing your difficult child did without thinking of the consequences, and how she's reacting so selfishly ... boy do I get that. That's a completely valid reaction. They think oh boy, a baby, it will have to love me and never leave me and everything will be hunky-dorey (my Youngest said something along those lines, out loud!). It's so unrealistic it makes you want to pull your hair out.

    Eventually, the shock will fade, the anger and frustration will subside (but not go away, believe me). Vent all you need to right now.
  18. DazedandConfused

    DazedandConfused Active Member


    I just wanted to post that I "get" your perspective on this and your anger. I know someone who "works" the system so well that it's sickening and infuriating. Especially because husband and I went through financial ruin when Daughter got ill and we had to sell off everything and move into a dump owned by his employer. It took us ten years to get back on our feet like before. husband worked so hard as to endanger his health. This person has used (yes, used!) her kids to milk the taxpayers and other charities like no one I've ever encountered before. To have it be your own child, well, honestly, I would be ranting like you also.
    You didn't teach her to follow that path and now she's in the situation she is in.

    I don't know....I think your going to have to find a way to make some peace with this as you really (I'm sure you know this already) have zero control. Other than her medical health, I would try and detach.
  19. rejectedmom

    rejectedmom New Member


    I am so sorry for your pain it is so very apparent in your posts. I know all this busines of difficult child pregnancy is new to you and you have so many feelings jumbling around in your mind. Fear, frustration, sadness, concern...etc.

    The way I see it you are still attached to the Teaching aspect of your relationship with your daughter and to the "I want her to change and be responsible." concept of parenting. I think for your own well being, it is time for you to try to step away from that. You have done as much as you can in that area.

    Ready or not your daughter is an adult and this is now her journey. Only she can make the decisions and choices as to what kind of life she wants to have and what kind of person she wants to be. Try to work on your detaching. Try to accept that the outcome may not be what you want but it is... what it is. It is the only way to find any kind of peace within yourself.

    It might help to think of the charity your daughter is getting as charity towards the BABY and not things for your daughter.

    In reality your daughter's motives are not important. The child needs this stuff and your daughter as the child's advocate is getting it for him/her. How she is doing it is not the way you taught her to go about theings and you don't approve because it goes against your personal belief system and that is OK. BUT if you want to remain a part of her life you should try not to judge her actions because that is counter-productive. It will only make you angry and negative and it will put her on the defensive.

    You say she will be a good mother. GOOD. That is what really matters. How much help she gets and where she gets it is not all that important unless she is not getting enough. The primary focus is the child and under the circumstances I think letting the "neighborhood" help raise the child in what ever way they can is a good thing.

    Do I approve of capable adults working the system and taking resorces that are better left for more unfortunate people? No, I do not. On the other hand your daughter and the baby needs a support system and if free stuff comes with it so be it.

    At first reading of this thread I didn't pick up on the falshood your difficult child was telling the agency as to her living arrangements. I am so sorry for that. That is wrong and very scary.

    The thing of it is she probably would get services without lying. Maybe not quite as much though. I'm sorry MB. I really do understand your hurt and frustration. -RM
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2009
  20. 1905

    1905 Well-Known Member

    (((HUGS))) I know this isn't the future you envisioned for your daughter. At the moment, it's heartbreaking. All the free stuff, it's ok. How many times have you donated, or helped someone? Alot, I'm sure. One day in the future your daughter will see how such small acts of charity can do so much good for others. And who knows how many she will help- having learned that lesson. If I were to do donate some stuff for a baby, your daughter is the type of person I would want to have it. She won't sell it, give it away etc... but get good use out of it. When I was a teenager, and pregnant, I was on welfare and medical assistance for a year and a half. My grandmother said , "well, we've paid into it enough years" and so have you, if that eases the guilt any. I used that as a catapult, and turned my life around. So have so many here, I notice. And so can your daughter. The hardships we all go through at times in our lives, make the good times that much better.
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