Animal shelters, the SPCA, etc.

[BusynMember]

I've done a lot of work with rescue this year and I've learned some really shocking facts about humane societies. I will never donate to them again. Only 20% of the dogs and cats get adopted. They "put down" the rest. Humane societies have to take all strays so they obviously have to kill a lot of the animals we think are going to be rehomed when we take in our pet or visit to walk the dogs.
Another thing that is disheartening is a shelter can claim to be a no-kill shelter, but really be a kill shelter. This is how it works. We have a shelter just like that here and I know how it happens by somebody who works for them.
When this no-kill shelter wants to put down some animals, they simply transfer those animals to kill shelters and the killing is done THERE. Technically, they are not killing any on their premises and can STILL claim to be no-kill. This shocked me.
The only animal places I donate to now are no-kill rescues done by volunteers that are not funded by the government. These people really do care about the animals and will keep them in foster homes as long as they have to. There is a down side...they have to turn away many animals. But at least they are taking good care of the ones they agreed to save.
I never visit the humane society anymore. I can't. Any pitballs or large black dogs are the first ones to go down, as they are the hardest to find homes for. I don't want to walk a nice, friendly dog and see an empty kennel later. Even if they say "oh, he got a home" I know better. For the most part, it really means "they went to the rainbow bridge."
Just a rant.

 

[Marcie Mac]

Unfortunately, Humane Societies are in a no win situation. They could not possibly keep for an unlimited amount of time every dog and cat that gets brought in - they try and adopt out as many as they can and foster where they can. When I had only one dog, I regularly went and adopted one then found a home for it then got another. One of my dogs Danny took in from the street, only a few weeks old. The other came from a litter of Pit puppies (11 of them) which he had brought home when their owner went to jail. Thankfully he found homes for all of them, but it was no easy feat

I would be more angry with the stupid irresponsible people who do not spay their animals, or let them breed just to see what their offspring would look like, or get an animal in then take them to the shelter cause they cannot "deal" with it or its too much trouble.

I don't like animals being put down but not supporting the local humane societies is not the way to go - they do the best with what they have. Los Angeles implimated a spay law - First-time offenders will receive information on subsidized sterilization services and be given an additional 60 days. If they still fail to comply they could be fined $100 and ordered to serve eight hours of community service. A subsequent offense could result in a $500 fine or 40 hours of community service. Certain animals are exempt, but there was a hue and cry from a lot of people who were/are digging in their heels being forced to have their pets fixed

Marcie

 

[klmno]

I am a big pet sympathizer, especially for dogs, but unfortunately, I think sometimes putting them down just isn't much choice. If the dog can't be socialized or is unadoptable and there's a line mile long, what else can be done? I think there are some agencies that are great about making every effort they can and some that look for any excuse- and I'm not so sure it has to do with the "big agency" as it does with what is actually happening at the specific place in your location. Where I used to live, the SPCA really did a great job and there were a couple of private rescue groups that went to any lengths they could. The humane society and others were horrible. I heard that their conditions for the pets were even worse than the pound. That's why when I felt like I couldn't take care of my dogs anymore the way they had been used to and didn't know how long it would last so I called various places trying to find options because I couldn't stand the thought of just giving them to a private citizen that I knew absolutely nothing about, then I heard how many of them are treated and how older dogs even if they are in good health and still social are unlikely to be adopted and I'd be listed as unable to care for a dog FOREVER- I decided I'd keep them and we'd just have to work thru it. I still can't care for them at the level they were used to. It hurts me but they know they are loved, they are fed, let outside, get attention, etc, and I have just resolved that they had to make sacrafices thru all our hardships, too.

 

[klmno]

I just read MM's respaonse- the best thing to do, in my humble opinion, if one is in the position- offer to foster the pet while it's in a rescue organization or humane society. You have to keep the dog or cat at your home but the organization will help with food and vet bills. You have to make the pet available for showing to potential adopting "parents".

 

[barneysmom]

We adopted a big black Lab/Pointer mix about a year ago (he was 5 y/o then) and he is a sweetie! So loving and eager to please. And very stalwart and loyal -- he has completely won my heart. Our other dog is a rescue too, a bichon/poodle mix, about 25#. We've had him since puppyhood; he's about eight now. They make a good black and white pair. They are great friends and have learned a lot about dog-dom from each other.

Sorry this is a little Occupational Therapist (OT) for this thread, but I just had to brag about my dogs.

I have a heart for animals too (especially dogs), and keep an eye on the rescue scene.

 

[GoingNorth]

I'm going to weigh in on the other side. I have extensive shelter experience working with dogs and cats both. The sad fact is that many animals are unadoptable due to health or temperament issues.

Years ago, a shelter I was volunteering at took in 45 German Shepherd dogs that were seized in a puppy mill raid.

I was the one doing the temperament testing and basically playing 'angel of death'. I was the one who decided which animals were suitable to go into foster care, and which ones could be rehabilitated and rehomed. Sadly, some of these dogs were so badly "broken" that euthanasia was the only option. They were either chronically ill or had such bad temperament issues that they were plain dangerous to handle.

I also volunteered for many years at a true charity run no-kill cat shelter. They were overrun with free ranging cats, the bulk of them unadoptable for various reasons. Illness ran rampant in that shelter.

Euthanasia would've been a mercy for some of them.

 

[susiestar]

We have a very unique situation in our town. We have animal control that is run by the city and a humane society that is private. They are in adjacent buildings owned by the humane society. They got the land (a huge parcel) from a will, along with a substantial amount of money. The animal control is where all animals go when they arrive. Those that are sick, biters, etc... stay there and have a 10-14 days to find a home. Usually animals who have even half a chance of being adopted are taken next door by the humane society after they are sure they don't have a disease (town law says a specified number of days in quarantine is mandatory to make sure they are healthy). The humane society has a TON of volunteers thanks to several very active board members who taught school in our town for decades. They publish a wish list every month or so and usually get everything they want on it. You CANNOT get a beer flat from a convenience store in this town because they are pledged to the Humane Society for litter boxes, though lots of people ask for them for various reasons. Our c stores even deliver them - each chain has 1 person who picks them up a few times a week from each store and drops them off. That way the animals get clean litter and boxes and there is no spread of disease. We also have a HUGE vet college that takes care of animals who are in accidents, etc... for the Humane Society and several private vets who do really cheap spay/neuter for both places. My vet is one and she is truly excellent with them.

Our Humane society hasn't killed an animal or sent one to be killed in almost ten years. Even after the collapse of the economy they still took every halfway healthy animal that came into animal control. We had a private shelter run by a lady who ended up with a houseful of cats with FIP and/or feline leukemia and they even set up a facilty to care for those animals when the lady ran off the people who were helping her with them. The only time the animals were euthanized was when they were so sick they were in agony. In a year they were the ONLY animals that were euthanized, and they restarted their no-kill count.

When I put our bird on Craigslist I was clear that before anyone could come and get her they had to be cleared by the humane society and animal control. Two people who really watned her both had history as avian hoarders and they thanked me for calling. I finally sent her to live with a woman who's cat was mourning the death of their bird. As Goldi was mourning the death of our Freckles, it was a good match. I still get updates even 2 years later.

Humane Societies do NOT want to kill animals. They often simply have no choice. There are always a few who like to do it and they often are run out of the organization in fairly short order. When we lived in OH the SPCA would kill any animal who needed any kind of medical care. Even ear mites were a reason to kill an animal there. yet when we took a cat who bit - on purpose bit kids - to have him put down (no choice because in OH if you own an animal who has bitten someone and it is adopted by another person, even through a shelter, YOU are still liable if the animal bites anyone at any future time in his life. We KNEW he would not stop biting because we worked with him for months and he just wouldn't stop. We also knew that we would be bankrupt if he bit someone, so we had no choice. We tried trainers, even a cat psychic and nothing worked. It was the first time we had an animal put down except for when one got very ill. It almost destroyed us because we were so heartbroken. But then the SPCA tried to adopt it out - at a KIDS DAY function!!!!!!!! I had a fit because the papers they had had my name and husband's on it so when it was in its' new home and bit they would have come after US. OH is that litigious a place, or was then.

NOT every humane society is like that. I know ours isn't because I have been involved and I know the people invovled very well. I am heartbroken and horrified to have a brother who refuses to spay his border collies. he thinks it will 'damage' his male and when he was given a female he thought he could make money. He cannot even give them away much of the time. He got into a LOT of trouble for tying three of them to the fence at the humane society - he said he was going to and someone I knew recognized him from seeing him with me at school when I picked up my kids. So they called me to ask if I knew who would tie puppies to their fence. he was on camera. I have NO idea how it worked out, he probably gave them some labor and promised to not do it again. But I am still HORRIFIED by his behavior. While they would not have killed the dogs, it was still shameful, as is breeding them. My mother has wanted a rhodesian ridgeback for decades and finally got my father to agree to get one. So my bro gave her one of his as a "surprise". To show how he "appreciated" her, gag. She has always been very very clear that she NEVER watned a dog with that kind of coat, but she has one. They have adjusted, but were NOT happy about it at first. Took my mom almost 20 yrs to get my dad to agree to another dog, to a rhodie, and she ended up with a collie.

 

[donna723]

I think some of this is different depending on the area. We are a rural county with two small towns and have a county run animal shelter that is run by county employees, not the Humane Society. But here, the Humane Society is a group of volunteers who do what they can to help. They raise funds, they donate pet food, and they assist with adoptions. Unfortunately, our county facility IS a kill shelter because they have no choice. They have neither the room or the funds to keep the constant stream of animals that come through their doors. We have people here (idiots) who never spay or neuter their pets and once or twice a year they're dropping another litter of puppies off at the shelter. And our little county, for a while, had one of the highest unemployment rates in the whole country, and apparently a lot of people just abandoned their pets or couldn't afford to keep them. It's horrible! There are several of the Humane Society volunteers who have built kennels at their homes at their own expense to keep many of these dogs, then list them on Petfinder to help get them adopted, rather than being euthanized at the shelter.

I actually got my youngest Boston, my boy Trace, through the Humane Society. He was very lucky in that when he was found badly injured, he was first taken to the vet instead of directly to the shelter. Sheer luck in that the lady who found him was a good friend of one of the vet techs there. His injured right eye had to be removed, his other injuries were treated and he was neutered - the Humane Society paid for his medical treatment. When he was medically stable, a Humane Society volunteer brought him to her home where she and her husband had built a heated/air conditioned kennel that can house up to 14 dogs. The more dogs they can bring to their home, the fewer that will be euthanized, and most of the food and supplies are donated. They took care of him there and then when I found out he was there I ended up adopting him. They were delighted that I adopted him because it not only got Trace a loving home of his own, it made room for them to bring home one more from the shelter, hopefully to also be adopted. Of course, there is no excuse for awful conditions in any shelter but not all Humane Societies are the same.

And there is a HUGE difference in local Humane Societies and the Humane Society of the United States, the national organization. Only a tiny portion of the money donated to the HSUS actually filters down to the local animal shelters. They are mostly a lobbying organization and the majority of their funds go towards advertising!

 

[susiestar]

I wish ALL states had spay/neuter laws with stiff fines. I would LOVE to see backyard breeding abolished and all breeders subject to strict licensing and standards. That goes for all animals, not just dogs and cats. We got Capn Morgan from the Animal control side, though he would have gone to the Humane Society. There were 2 that thank you and I liked and both were set to go to the Humane Society. Morgan hadn't been neutered yet and the other one had. The vet he was to be sent to is our family vet and she vouched for us so we took him home on Fri when she couldn't neuter him until Tues.

Ours is amazing in that they do an unannounced home visit 15-30 days after adoption. Someone knocks on your door to see how the animal is adjusting and what the conditions are life. if they don't approve they take the animal with them. If you don't let them in the police come and you HAVE to let them in or give the animal back. period. It is in the contract and right before we got Morgan it went into the Animal control contract that the Humane Soc would be doing an inspection. It is AWESOME except that the first time I learned of this a guy showed up at my house at ten at night to "inspect". We couldn't get anyone at the shelter to verify that he was coming out so I refused to open the door. When the cops came I explained that we had no idea they would come late at night, my husband was at owrk and I had a toddler at home. It apparently was teh last time an inspection was done after 8 pm because the cops told the guy to come back at another time and wouldn't let him in. He tried to take Freckles (this was when Wiz was 1) the next day but I had already called the head of the Board of Directors to explain. Apparently he was NOT supposed to be out that late. I am still glad they do the inspections though.

Our shelter and animal control also keep a list of people who have either hoarded animals or brought in a lot of animals that were not strays that they found. If you call to see if a prospective adopter is on the list they will tell you. It helps keep the hoarders from getting more animals again.

 

[BusynMember]

While I recognize that they have to do it (euthanize) it breaks my heart and I don't like that they are secretive about how many animals they put down. After all, it's publicly funded. in my opinion we should get that info.

I'd love to foster animals, but I rent and landlord is nice and lets us keep our animals (we'd move otherwise), but he doesn't want me to foster. I asked him.

Anyone live near Dogtown? That place sounds so great that I'd like to take a vacation and visit one day.

 

[gcvmom]

They are mostly a lobbying organization and the majority of their funds go towards advertising!

And supporting PETA!

 

[DaisyFace]

MWM--

At our shelter - there is a large sign that informs everyone that due to the extreme overcrowding at the shelter, animals are euthanized at such-and-such intervals. They receive literally hundreds of unwanted dogs and cats every month. There simply is no place to keep that number of animals. As it is, they keep dogs three and four to a kennel just to give them a chance to be adopted.

They are collecting donations to expand the facility.

 

[donna723]

"And supporting PETA! "

Yes they do, gvcmom, and I'm so glad you mentioned that! I was absolutely shocked to find out the the HSUS actually supports those raving loonies that are involved with PETA! There are a lot of uninformed dingbat celebrities out there who support PETA because they think it makes them look good but Google them sometime and read some of the stories in the news if you want to see what they are really about! And PETA actually euthanizes something like 95% of the animals that they have taken supposedly for adoption because they believe that they are better off dead than to be "enslaved" by human owners! Don't even get me started!

The HSUS rakes in millions in donations with their tear-jerking TV commmercials but if you want your money to REALLY help the animals, donate directly to your LOCAL animal shelters or Humane Societies.

 

[flutterby]

Our local humane societies are no-kill, unless the animal is chronically ill or dangerous. And they tell you that up front. Even so, they still have special-needs pets as long as they can get a foster for it.

I adopted Jewel almost 5 years ago from the Humane Society that picked her up from the dog warden (pound) where she would have certainly been euthanized.

That said, I have seen some local, independent rescue groups who are so zealous that they try to save every single animal. All animals are not adoptable and trying to adopt them out, only to have the animal returned over and over again, is more damaging. One of our local rescues (that is no longer functioning), was hellbent on adopting 2 dogs together. They were littermates who survived freezing to death in a field - their mother and other littermates froze to death - and were taken in by a man who ran his own kind of rescue, but the dogs were not socialized at all. It almost sounds like a hoarding situation. Anyway, when these dogs were 3 years old, he gave them to the rescue to adopt them out. These dogs were terrified and while one was able to overcome and adjust, the other wasn't. I watched on their adoption page as those dogs were adopted out and returned at least 5 times, until they finally adopted just the one out separately. When I suggested that the other one wasn't adoptable, I received their wrath. in my opinion, it was cruel to take her out of the only environment she felt safe in and try to place her in a home because that's what they think should happen with every dog no matter what.

 

[gcvmom]

I'm so glad you mentioned that! I was absolutely shocked to find out the the HSUS actually supports those raving loonies that are involved with PETA!

Yes, and did you know that HSUS is actually one of the main entities behind this huge push in California for the mandatory spay/neuter laws? I know this because my own mother is one of the "activists" fighting so hard to stop the spread of this policy in her community and any others she possibly can. On the surface, the intent seems all well and good, but in reality, it does a lot of damage -- constitutionally, ecologically, politically.... I don't want to debate it all here as I know there are passions on both sides.

People just need to be sure, as with any issue, that they thoroughly research who is behind an issue before deciding whether to support it or not. Follow the money, and you'll find out who's really in charge of something.

 

[donna723]

Not all "rescues" are the same. Some are very good and some are no more than animal hoarders who do more harm than good. A reputable rescue group is very, very careful to place the right animal in the right home and carefully screens applicants and does home studies. Their "client" is the dog, not the adoption applicants. A dog who is not good around small children will only go to a home without small children, and a dog that does not get along with other animals will only be placed in a home where they will be an "only child". A good rescue group has the dogs living with foster families who can often re-train them towards better behavior. That's one bad thing about animal shelters in that they will usually let an animal go with whoever will have it, then if it's not a good match, the people bring the dog back to the shelter again.

And more on the PETA thing ... they now have to post guards and people have to be very vigilant at major dog shows like Westminster because of the actions of PETA. These so-called animal lovers have come in to dog shows and created chaos! People no longer leave their crated dogs unattended because harmful things have been put in their drinking water and valuable show dogs were let out of their crates to run free ... some ended up out in the streets and were hit by cars or lost forever. These aren't just "show dogs", they are beloved family members of their owners.

 

[Star*]

I try not to jump in on this because I get so passionate and because I have volunteered at shelters and the Humane Society for years. We also foster at our house. 2010 we Fostered 107 animals. I don't count snakes, terrapins, opossums, bunnies - they are rehabbed and returned to the wild..

HOWEVER -- "I want to breed her before I spay her so she knows what it's like to be a Mother.",
"If I neuter him, he won't be a good guard dog."
"We want puppies.",
"We're going to breed them and make money, John lost his job."
"We cant' afford to keep this dog." (opens the door or takes Rover for a ride out in the country -unneutered or spayed)

This is the mentality that you are dealing with every day in the kennel. You can't fix stupid.
First of all - Poopsie - doesn't need a litter of puppies to experience Motherhood - she'd be happier if you never allowed her to have puppies, saggie boobies, and have all her offspring ripped away from her to go off and breed at will and make more unwanted puppies.
Next - Samson will be just as wonderful of a guard dog if not MORE attentive to you if he's not sniffing the air for a breeding female all the time.
YOU want puppies? -Oh the comments kennel workers have for that are not printable.
And the backyard breeder - Really you want to breed Puppies? What are the breed standards? Are you showing? Are you improving the breed? What are the lines and the temperments going back three generations? Idiots. You aren't breeding for good lines and temperments - you are breeding to make money - and that's no reason to breed dogs. Rover and Rovina look good - WOW. You are an idiot. Maybe Rovina's GGma was a killer. You have no idea. This is why Pit bulls all get a bad rap.


And there IS a syndrome called black dog syndrome - where it's a mental block that people think (isn't this crazy) but it's been proven that people associate the color black with evil, bad - so black dogs and cats especially have a harder time getting adopted than any other color. Crazy huh?
So then you have the people that are down on their luck and just CAN'T BARE to take them into the pound - NO of course not. Just let them loose on some country road - USUALLY MINE. Maybe he'll get hit by a car. Maybe he'll starve to death because he can't find a trash can or scavenge enough to survive, maybe he'll get heartworms from being outdoors unprotected. But SALLY SUE wanted a puppy for her 4th birthday. IDIOT. My first adoption question is WHO will be taking care of this dog? Who will feed it, walk it, brush it? If the answer is 4 year old Sally Sue - ADOPTION OVER. Unless that kid is ULTRA responsible and at least nine - it hardly ever happens that the kid remembers to feed the dog let alone walk it. Mom ends up doing it, regrets it and then uses the dog as a tool. Idiot. Yet people get angry when they are put down.

I am too - boiling angry - But I'm not sure which is better. A life being chained to a dog house - outside, unloved, untouched, in the heat, in the cold, with minimal contact, dirty water, and cheap kibble and left overs ......or euthanized. Hard call.

I've taken dogs right out of yards......Right off chains......I've knocked on doors - and angrily said ''''HEY will you come out here and stand in the sun please?" Then as the person tried to move to the shade....I've said "OH NO, please stand over here in the sun - like your DOG." and then waited while the owner got some shade or offered to help move the dog pen under a tree." IDIOT.

Dogs are like furry children.....not idiots.

Those commercials ONLY bother US......people like us and the sad thing? THOSE dogs are already SAVED if they are filming them. And the only people that send money are people like US.

And those people that are on that animal planet show that starve and abuse their animals? OMG.....O.M.G. (words fail me but you can bet I feel that the ONLY fair treatment in court for THEM would be to have the exact same thing done to them) a fine and jail time is not NOT good enough.

And I guess that's all I have to say about it ----here.

MWM - YOU ROCK! Thanks for the thread. And for exposing this farce. Support your local independent animal shelters.

 

[donna723]

Star, you said it all! The more you get in to it, the angrier you become! Back in my parents generation, they really did believe that it was better for the dog to have at least one litter before being spayed ... thankfully we've progressed since then! Now they know that, besides all the other benefits, female dogs that are spayed early, even before the first heat, have a MUCH lower incidence of breast cancer which is deadly in dogs because it quickly spreads to their lungs. The fewer times they come in to heat, the smaller the chances of getting breast cancer become. And I think a lot of MEN have a big problem with getting male dogs neutered too! It's a "macho" thing! They're projecting their own feelings on to the dog. My little Trace was neutered and I honestly don't think he misses'em!

And the "ride in the country" thing? Don't even get me started on that! When I lived out in the country there were dogs dumped just about every day! The yahoos let their dogs have puppies so their kids can play with them, then when the females are about old enough to come in to heat, they take them out and dump them! That's how I got my sweet Ms. Freebie ten years ago! She came in to my yard in the middle of a snow storm starving and almost frozen to death, and so scared that I fed her for two weeks before she would even let me touch her! And even though she does wonderfully here with me, she's pretty much ruined for anything else because of all her fears! She's terrified of storms, terrified to be anywhere else but here, terrified of anyone who isn't ME, and is so protective of me that she can appear aggressive, but it's all out of fear! She wouldn't last a day in a shelter! And the worst part was that even though I took her in, there were new stray dogs showing up every day and I just couldn't take them all in! It just broke my heart! It's not just feeding another dog, a little more food in the bowl! I paid for her spay, her shots, her deworming, her license, her flea medications, and when she needed surgery I paid for that too. All because some irresponsible person was too frickin' lazy to get their dog spayed!

 

[troubled]

Our local shelter is listed as a no-kill and they often will refuse more animals than they can handle. I am hoping that they are not sending them out to be killed elsewhere. I have had 3 adopted animals, two of them were black cats. I have a strange affinity for black cats in particular. I feel for the underdog, as usual.

 

[AnnieO]

You know... I have a fairly unique outlook here...

When I was 5, my babysitter's cat had kittens... She needed homes for them... So we took one. Spayed... To go along with the cat we already had, who was neutered.

At 9, my parents BOUGHT a purebred Samoyed for me from local private breeders - I got to meet the parents (and the humans). Good people. We didn't spay her, because we WERE going to breed her. Never happened. Only time we have EVER done that.

In my teens, a friend's cat had kittens... I took one... She lasted all of 2 weeks before the first cat (see above) and the dog ran her off.

When I moved out... A friend had a kitten who was scratching and biting the 6-month-old. I took her, had her spayed. Turned out the baby was pulling her tail. Baby + kitten = not good. (This is Weasel...)

First time I got married, a GIFT was a little black kitten. (BAD GIFT, though I love Possum dearly). Neutered.

Bubbles was a "stray" that husband and Onyxx found while walking to school one day. Someone who knew his owner told husband he had been beaten badly. Neutered - but still thinks he can... It's funny to watch.

And Squirrel - belonged to husband's niece... She couldn't keep Squirrel and her brother when kicked out of her apartment, so we said we'd foster till we found homes. Found one for the brother, but Squirrel... Well, that was 2006... mother in law had her neutered when she was with niece.

My parents have adopted 1 stray and 2 from SICSA - all neutered. They donate to SICSA on a regular basis.

H & E adopted a dog in December 2009, from their local HSUS. They were GRILLED. "Where will the dog sleep? Eat? Exercise? How many children? What ages?" Yada yada yada. Dog was supposed to be good around kids.

The dog bit. Not hard, but they had a 2-y/o. And then? Ran away. After less than a month. They have a FARM. They did a tie-out, and she chewed through the steel cable and got away. Fortunately, she was spayed. They tried to find her for months.

Then, a friend had to move suddenly and dropped off her Rottie with E & H. They tried to find her a home and then discovered she was PREGNANT. Shortly after the puppies were weaned, she killed 4 chickens, a pig (BIG PIG) and went after the then-3-y/o. Nowhere near the pups. They had to put her down. They found homes for all but one of the pups - and still trying, with that one (she's spayed now).

Years ago - E and his XW had a cat - who had kittens, and kittens, and kittens - we're talking probably 15 of them total. HSUS would not take them. We found a farm that would. From what we understand, they turned into GREAT barn cats. I seriously doubt they were spayed though. E now ensures ALL of his animals are spayed. Twice bitten...

I have no intention of having kittens I didn't ask for or a spraying tom. ALL my animals get "fixed". It's better for them, better for me...