Any tips for defiant peeing or pooping?

[fun fam]

About a year ago, my son started peeing on the carpet in his room when he was mad. He was fully and quickly potty trained at age 2.5 (even at nighttime) and I was shocked how fast he learned. All I did was take the diapers off and he took to using the potty really quickly with little chocolates for rewards.

Then, at 4.5 years old, he started the defiant peeing. He did it for a few weeks, and I honestly pretended that I didn't even notice. He always did it right after he was really mad about something. I figured he wanted attention for it, so I just cleaned it up when he wasn't looking and pretended nothing happened. After a few weeks, he stopped completely. Then a few months ago, he started again. He also pooped on the floor in his room. E

ven worse--twice he has pulled down his pants, in public (but not when friends are around) and tried to pee on me and/or husband. The first time, we were at the swimming pool, and he said he was mad because I wouldn't let him splash his little brother. So he pulled down his pants and tried to pee on me. I was mortified.

The second time, we were at the park, and he was mad because a sprinkler got some water on his sleeve. I know these are sensory meltdowns, but he "blames" husband and I and thinks he needs to pee on us to teach us a lesson. I finally asked him why he pees and poops on the floor and/or on husband and I, and he flat out says, "because I'm mad at you! duh." He does this after he gets frusterated about anything---he fell and hurt himself, we ran out of chocolate milk, the room is too loud, he lost the video game, he can't find his sun glasses, etc. Its like a release for him.

Anyway, are there any tips for getting him to stop? We finally took some of his allowance away to help pay for a carpet cleaner for his room. After that he didn't pee in there for 2 weeks, but started again. Will he just outgrow this as he gets older?

 

[BusynMember]

I have no answer to this. You have a complicated kiddo. If he were adopted at an older age or had many caregivers and chaos at a young age I'd swear he had attachment disorder, but I think I remember that he has had a calm, loving family life since birth.

All I have to offer is hoping you get to the bottom of things soon. The hardest part for me about my own son were all the varying opinions I got about what was wrong with him or NOT wrong with him. It was depressing and confusing and not helpful at all. I'm sorry.

 

[fun fam]

yes, he is not adopted. And I've always practiced attachment parenting so he's been nursed, held, and co-slept with since birth. I don't even spank or anything like that. And husband is the same. He's a very gentle dad. difficult child is very complicated. I know he's similar to attachment disorder--I used to be respite foster care worker and took care of some Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) kids on a regular basis. I know they do things like peeing in random places and rage. And my close friend has two adopted children with Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) so we support each other all the time. (kids were adopted at ages 1 and 2 from very abusive environments) But theoretically, my son shouldn't have attachment disorder.

 

[BusynMember]

Oh, hon, I'm sure he doesn't. Attachment disorder would make no sense. These disorders tend to mimic each other, especially when kids are so young. You sound like you are a great parent. This is NOT because of you.

 

[InsaneCdn]

but.... has he ever been babysat?
A rotten-apple of a babysitter can abuse the kid in ways that cause serious behavior issues...
Or any chance he's been around your friend's Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) kids?

 

[fun fam]

No, and no. I've always been a stay at home mom. difficult child was occasionally babysat when husband and I went on date nights maybe 3-4 times a year, and by my mom who I can't imagine would ever abuse a child. He did go to preschool at age 3, but his huge meltdowns started way before then and the preschools he went to were part-time, twice a week for two hours and were very reputable.

We moved far away from my friend with the Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) kids when difficult child was 4 weeks old due to job change for husband. My friend and I talk on the phone a lot, and text, etc, but our kids hardly see each other as we are too far to get together more than every other year. (we are in different states) And our visits are always completely supervised--difficult child has never been alone with those kids and we usually meet in a park or something.

 

[BusynMember]

IC, just exposure to Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) kids doesn't make kids act Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD).

I wouldn't worry about that at all. My kids lived three years with severe Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) kid and they are nothing like him. Not in any way.

 

[InsaneCdn]

IC, just exposure to Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) kids doesn't make kids act Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD).

For the sake of the record (not applicable given Fun Fam's last post)...

No, exposure to Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) kids doesn't make a kid Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD)... but... what if the Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) kids have been or are perping on HIM?
THAT could cause serious behaviour issues in this kid... doesn't make him Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD), agreed. If this is part of the picture, then he needs a totally different kind of help.

But it looks like that isn't the source, either.

 

[DaisyFace]

Ugh! My difficult child used to pull that stuff, too. Destroyed an entire bedroom full of stuff with poop and pee. We had to toss pretty much everything she owned!

Our pediatrician and therapist had NO clue how to stop this. We *did* manage to get a handle on the more "public" episodes of inappropriate pooping/peeing by insisting that she had to wear diapers if she couldn't use the potty like other kids her age....but more private incidents of poop/pee in wrong places continued right up into the teens.

So sorry. Wish I had better advice...

 

[TerryJ2]

I'd not worry about whether it's Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) or defiance or whatever and just focus on what to do about it. Our therapist is a behaviorist, so we've had good luck with-that approach.
I would get him to clean up whatever he does--urine, fecal material, etc. Hand him rubber gloves, a disposable, cheap plastic grocery bag, the right cleaning materials (you may want to put them in tiny containers, because if he's like my son, he'll dump the entire container on the spot) and calmly tell him to clean it up.
He will have a meltdown but he's got to clean it up before he can 1) eat; 2) play video games; 3) do whatever it is he likes to do.
Once he is in the habit of cleaning it up, he will slowly realize that he's not punishing you, because YOU are not the one reacting and YOU are not the one cleaning it up.
I think it will take several weeks to get into that routine. He's going to balk and refuse. You've got to have a lot of patience and a lot of follow-through. It will be exhausting but you can do it. Eventually, he'll get the fact that you are not going to back down, that it is not getting him what he wants, and that there is a direct cause and effect.
Also, I would reward him when he yells at you when he's mad, and uses words. "Remember when you yelled this morning and you used words and didn't hit, and didn't poop? I am very proud of how you handled that. You are really growing into a young man. We all get mad but not everyone uses words as clearly as you do to express their anger."
You'll want to pretend you're reading a movie script when you say that, because it will feel so fake, rolf!
Good luck!

 

[Liahona]

We stapled a tarp on difficult child 1's floor. It was to make clean up easier and to save the carpet. He stopped peeing on the carpet after that. Instead he peed in the vents in his room. We moved his dresser over the vent. We also made him clean it up.

 

[TerryJ2]

Liahona, where's the "like" button?

 

[chr]

So, I just find out my 13 year old son has been peeing on his bedroom wall to wall carpeting and this past 'year' I've been blaming the cat!!!! he refuses to clean it up. giving me the silent treatment. I've been cleaning it up all along except for tonight because I just found out it was him. He is being manipulated by his father, we are no longer living together. But how do I make him stop? We do not have a big house. It's maybe a 5 second walk to the bathroom! I'm livid. I'm sick to my stomach. I don't know what to do.

 

[TargetPractice]

I agree with TerryJ2, my difficult child would "revenge poop" in his pants every time I put him in time out. He only stopped after I made him clean himself and the time out spot (luckily a hard floor in a kitchen corner) by himself--washing out his underwear and everything. He then had to finish the time out. He was about 4-5 when this was happening.

Chr, I have no experience with an older child doing this, but I would suggest therapy for your son if he's not already seeing someone. Worst case, it will help with any issues surtounding his dad. Also, maybe try taking away his favorite privileges until he cleans it up. What I can tell you from experience is that you and his father not being on the same page, especially if he is manipulating your son, will be a problem in and of itself. My ex is one of those, too, so I completely understand the issues there, been living it for 8 years.

Best of luck to both of you, fun fam and chr. Hugs.

 

[susiestar]

chr, you may get more support if you create a new post for this problem. People tend to see the old date when it was first created and then they don't look at it again.

Inappropriate peeing is a sign that he needs therapy, help. I am so sorry he is doing this, and that he blamed it on your poor cat for all this time.

I would likely remove the carpet if it is soaked with pee everywhere. I would NOT put down carpet, but the cheapest vinyl flooring or I might just use marine paint and paint the floor. It won't look great, but he does not deserve great after this. I would make him help with this work.

I would also remove his door. If you behave this inappropriately, you clearly need more supervision and you lose your right to privacy.

If you can figure out how many times you cleaned his floor and how long it took you to clean it (time taken to clean it up once multiplied by number of times you cleaned it up), then your son owes you that many hours of hard work. Yard work supervised by you, scrubbing floors and tubs, any work you don't want to do. He gave you that many hours of work and he owes you that amount of time.

As for the problems with his father, therapy could help with this.

 

[GoingNorth]

As someone who had this issue with a cat who didn't need therapy, but rather a kidney transplant, I can tell you that you may need to tear out the underlayment beneath the pad (if there is one) as well. In my case, the entire flooring had to be replaced in the living room.

I did not re-carpet. Instead, I put down vinyl flooring. Much easier with pets. I have carpeting in my apt now, and with two cats who are fairly good about the litterpan (the senior citizen has his moments), it's still a PITA and I have to have it professionally cleaned fairly often because it's light in color.

 

[Copabanana]

He is being manipulated by his father

Hi chr. Why not start a new thread. This one is from 2013.

That said, I agree with the others. I would strongly consider therapy and a consult with a psychiatrist. I can understand how stunned and grossed out by what he is doing, but it is really a cry for help. Apparently he is incapable right now to deal with what he is thinking/feeling, and/or is very, very angry. But the thing is that he is hurting himself and you by acting out his anger this way if that is what he is doing. Maybe, if there are funds to pay a behavioral intervention plan by a behavioral psychologist to give you and he a strategy to curb the behavior might make sense. I would take him to his pediatrician right off and ask what to do. Who knows. An element of this might be health related even though he says it is volitional.

 

[agentmeek]

I stumbled upon this thread through an internet search. We have 20 month old B/B twins. One of my sons will poop his pants if I let him Cry for 5 minutes at bedtime. He has always done this, and it seems as if he is angry at me. I breast fed both until 18 months, stay at home with them but the child that is more challenging is the one that has always been more attached to me. We have had a very difficult time with getting them to sleep through the night. Even now the challenging one baby B, wakes numerous times a night. Needless to say I did not do CIO, nor would I regardless of this issue. Why does he do this??? Any ideas?

 

[BusynMember]

Hi. This is a very old thread. You may want to start a new one or others might not see it.

Two comments. What is cio? Secondly most toddlers are not totally potty trained so young. My very bright granddaughter is 2 1/2 and still i full time diapers. in my opinion it's early to stress over this.

 

[AppleCori]

Hi and welcome, agent!

I agree with SWOT--a lot of kids (especially boys) aren't ready to be fully potty trained by 20 months. I wouldn't push it.

I am not sure that I would classify this as "defiant". I had a friend whose son would have a bowel movement when he got excited to go somewhere. It wasn't consious decision. It was just the way his body reacted.

Having had twins myself, I do know that often one will wake the other up at night or keep the other from going to sleep. Is it possible to separate them at night?