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mrsammler
Guest
Not surprising. My nephew difficult child used to buy/steal prescription post-surgery bandages that, affixed to the skin like band-aids, dermally infused heavy sedatives into the bloodstream. Their effect on him was identical to a shot of low-grade heroin. The jones for a buzz, any buzz, evidently overrides all other impulses. Sad.
M
mrsammler
Guest
This is something I used to bring up with my nephew difficult child repeatedly (before I gave up on him). When he'd rant about drugs, or wanting to fight someone, or a knife he wanted to buy, etc etc--in other words, utterly immature & absurd difficult child preoccupations--I would remind him that he was 17 (and then 18) and ask him, "Doesn't it embarrass you that you are 17/18 and this is what concerns you? Drugs? A fight? A knife? Some teenage ****? Instead of the state of the world, or the state of your family, or your education, or a good book, or the people in your life that you're supposed to love and care about? Instead of some drug or a knife or a fight? Does it not occur to you that the things you care about are absurdly silly and childish and foolish, especially compared to the things that, at your age, you *should* care about?" This, of course, got nowhere--difficult children feel no shame or embarrassment. They don't introspect at all--perhaps are incapable of it.
Steely
Active Member
Mrsammler...I wish you would not have given up on your nephew. You give up on people that are 45 and still doing those things........not kids who are 20. These are kids with mental illnesses, not spoiled brats. And even if he is just being a brat, he still needs his uncle to care about him, love him, and emotionally support him. We ALL need our family to love us unconditionally - not condone our actions - but love us.
In addition if someone had tried to shame me the way you described trying to shame your nephew, I would feign any sort of emotion as well. In fact after pretending not to take care, I would have gone far away from all human contact and become hysterically upset that no one understood me.
Do you ever wonder if he cries himself to sleep at night, because he feels like no one gets him, loves him, or cares? Or because both his dad and uncle think he is worthless, so therefore he is.
God you have this amazing opportunity to be this supportive loving role model, one who has the capability of really getting a difficult child and changing world, and you have given up hope. That makes ME cry.
In addition if someone had tried to shame me the way you described trying to shame your nephew, I would feign any sort of emotion as well. In fact after pretending not to take care, I would have gone far away from all human contact and become hysterically upset that no one understood me.
Do you ever wonder if he cries himself to sleep at night, because he feels like no one gets him, loves him, or cares? Or because both his dad and uncle think he is worthless, so therefore he is.
God you have this amazing opportunity to be this supportive loving role model, one who has the capability of really getting a difficult child and changing world, and you have given up hope. That makes ME cry.
H
HaoZi
Guest
I think it is this blanket statement of difficult children in general that brought out such anger. While it might, perhaps, be true of your difficult child nephew, to lump all of our difficult children into such a category is insulting and demeaning to them and us.
M
mrsammler
Guest
You are correct. I apologize for that admittedly incorrect statement. I was referring to this particular difficult child and should've been clear about that.
T
toughlovin
Guest
I was thinking about previous discussions we have had on this list about your nephew, about sociopathy, and how it relates to my son. My son has done a lot of stupid things, is somewhat like you describe your nephew, keeps sabatoging himself, has major substance abuse issues etc etc. So right before we went on vacation he was arrested yet again... and I really started to wonder if he was a sociopath or headed that way. I did some reading and started felt he fit a lot of the criteria for antisocial personality disorder (which is basically sociopathic). I felt pretty darned discouraged.
Then this week happened and he called me and on his initiation we went to a psychiatric hospital where he admitted himself voluntarily due to feeling suicidal. He was discharged today and is going to start a day program at the hospital, again voluntarily. This is all new.... any help he has gotten before has been at our insistence or to get out of jail.
Anyway the hospital started looking at him in a way no one else has before. They too are wondering about a personality disorder but are looking at borderline rather than antisocial. A big difference. And it makes a lot of sense....
and what I get from all this is he does have a lot of pain and he is very unhappy, and in particular about his turbulant relationships. He does in fact feel things strongly (always did as a kid which doesn't quite match with a sociopath) He is now willing to look at some of his issues.... and I am praying that this continues.
What I have noticed is that a lot of really troubled teens with bad behavior have had some kind of major loss in thier life. Your nephew had a big loss in the death of his father... that is huge and he may have had no idea how to cope and then the drugging etc was a way to deal with his pain..... and some of his horrible behavior can be due to plain old drug addiction. Your nephew clearly needs some serious help and I hope he gets it somehow some day.
Now that is not to say that you should have stayed in there and continued the sacrifices you were making. I actually don't think you should have. At some point you have to step back... especially as an uncle. No reason to mess up your own life for his bad behavior..... and from what you have said before it sounds like your sister enables him big time and now that he is 20 he will not get help as long as she continues to do that.
But it may be if he ever really got some serious psychiatric help they could really help him.
In my reading about personality disorders it talks about how borderline is underdiagnosed in men and often men with borderline personality are misdiagnosed as antisocial personality disorder, in other words sociopaths.
TL
Then this week happened and he called me and on his initiation we went to a psychiatric hospital where he admitted himself voluntarily due to feeling suicidal. He was discharged today and is going to start a day program at the hospital, again voluntarily. This is all new.... any help he has gotten before has been at our insistence or to get out of jail.
Anyway the hospital started looking at him in a way no one else has before. They too are wondering about a personality disorder but are looking at borderline rather than antisocial. A big difference. And it makes a lot of sense....
and what I get from all this is he does have a lot of pain and he is very unhappy, and in particular about his turbulant relationships. He does in fact feel things strongly (always did as a kid which doesn't quite match with a sociopath) He is now willing to look at some of his issues.... and I am praying that this continues.
What I have noticed is that a lot of really troubled teens with bad behavior have had some kind of major loss in thier life. Your nephew had a big loss in the death of his father... that is huge and he may have had no idea how to cope and then the drugging etc was a way to deal with his pain..... and some of his horrible behavior can be due to plain old drug addiction. Your nephew clearly needs some serious help and I hope he gets it somehow some day.
Now that is not to say that you should have stayed in there and continued the sacrifices you were making. I actually don't think you should have. At some point you have to step back... especially as an uncle. No reason to mess up your own life for his bad behavior..... and from what you have said before it sounds like your sister enables him big time and now that he is 20 he will not get help as long as she continues to do that.
But it may be if he ever really got some serious psychiatric help they could really help him.
In my reading about personality disorders it talks about how borderline is underdiagnosed in men and often men with borderline personality are misdiagnosed as antisocial personality disorder, in other words sociopaths.
TL
Steely
Active Member
mrsammler said:
Ummmm............what do you think this board is about? You defy me????
Many of us deal with what you dealt with for only 14 months - EVERY SINGLE DAY OF OUR LIVES - because they are our KIDS - and we choose to get them HELP. We choose not to 'give up', or 'disown them' even when they are 2000 miles away, homeless, on drugs, and committing crimes - because they are our KIDS. We LOVE them - UNCONDITIONALLY. That doesn't mean we take their cr@p - but we never give up HOPE, nor do we deem them permanently un-salvageable.
As for crying oneself to sleep - you have no idea what pain that kid has. His Dad died - and he spiraled - just because he didn't show to you or anyone else his pain - it is evident and obvious it is there - or he would not have acted out in this horrific way. How could you know what pain or introspection he has? Just because he didn't show some Uncle that side of him, doesn't mean it isn't there.
H
HaoZi
Guest
Again, this is a generalizing of all difficult children with (to my eyes) no real regard for the very wide variety of underlying disorders. For some difficult children it is a physical problem (like Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI), for example) that expresses as difficult child behavior. Chemical imbalances, physical or emotional abuse, traumatic experiences like death or divorce, etc. To generalize in such a way is akin to saying that because a body decomposes a specific way proves the cause of death to be the same in every case.
M
mrsammler
Guest
I grant the complex varied causalities that present as difficult child behavior. I have learned that from this forum as well. I didn't mention all of that merely for the sake of concision. But yes, I do see that--i.e., I don't think that all difficult children have personality disorders, or even that they have a personality disorder at all. I can't help but wonder if GFGness is, in fact, an as yet undiagnosed sort of temporary mental illness (when it's not driven by Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI) or other physical/neurochemical abnormalities) that presents heavily in some kids in the teen years and then, hopefully, tapers off into normalcy in the early or mid twenties. My point is that it presents very similarly to borderline/narcissistic/anti-social personality disorders while it's in full bloom--in some difficult children it is probably the very personality disorder itself in its earliest stage of presentation. But for many, hopefully most, it's this strange undiagnosed mental disorder that is a merely an extended but passing storm. And I don't fault parents and family members who hang in there and don't give up--in fact, I very much applaud them--and I don't fault those who do, if that's what their experience presses them to do.
flutterby
Fly away!
You can defy me all you want. You just described my difficult child 2, who isn't even my blood. And I dealt with it for more than 14 months. A couple of times he lived with me. And, yes, I still care about him. I don't feel contempt for him at all. That's such a strong, negative word. He's a (now) 19 year old kid with untreated mental illness and drug addiction.
You do realize that the behavior you're describing is what you see with an addict, right? Yet, you go straight to sociopathy every single time. Further, sociopath isn't even used in psychology today. Instead, it's called ASPD (Anti-Social Personality Disorder). There is talk of adding a subcategory of ASPD in the DSM V of ASPD with sociopathic tendencies, but it is not currently used. Whether your nephew has a personality disorder, another mental illness, grief, or just old fashioned drug addiction cannot be determined by professionals while an addict is using, so I'm not sure why you think you can make that determination. I also deeply resent every kid on this board being then compared to your single, short lived experience' thus, they don't care, they're sociopaths, whatever. You apologized on this thread, and you have before. However, you keep doing it.
None of this is new information. This has been given to you before. I have to wonder why you are here? You do not have a difficult child in your life, and you don't seem to be interested in learning about the illness that causes the behavior. Nor do you seem to be interested in learning about treatments, or anything else the members here look for. Are you looking for validation? Because speaking of the contempt you have for your nephew, and you haven't spoken of your sister in a good light, is not going to get you that here.
You do realize that the behavior you're describing is what you see with an addict, right? Yet, you go straight to sociopathy every single time. Further, sociopath isn't even used in psychology today. Instead, it's called ASPD (Anti-Social Personality Disorder). There is talk of adding a subcategory of ASPD in the DSM V of ASPD with sociopathic tendencies, but it is not currently used. Whether your nephew has a personality disorder, another mental illness, grief, or just old fashioned drug addiction cannot be determined by professionals while an addict is using, so I'm not sure why you think you can make that determination. I also deeply resent every kid on this board being then compared to your single, short lived experience' thus, they don't care, they're sociopaths, whatever. You apologized on this thread, and you have before. However, you keep doing it.
None of this is new information. This has been given to you before. I have to wonder why you are here? You do not have a difficult child in your life, and you don't seem to be interested in learning about the illness that causes the behavior. Nor do you seem to be interested in learning about treatments, or anything else the members here look for. Are you looking for validation? Because speaking of the contempt you have for your nephew, and you haven't spoken of your sister in a good light, is not going to get you that here.
Mattsmom277
Active Member
Defying or otherwise, I feel no "contempt" for your difficult child nephew, nor any difficult child on the board, in the news, etc. I may feel "contempt" for some actions of persons, but that does not automatically breed "contempt" FOR the person, OF the person.
There is a big difference from deciding to detach from a person who is a difficult child, has a mental health issue, or addictions, that isn't helping themselves and is too chaotic to continue to be involved with, vs writing the person as a whole off with "Contempt" and some pretty drastic words to characterize them.
I think that perhaps this forum isn't the place for you if you cannot see that while we have often posted appreciation for your attempts to help your sis and difficult child nephew, we also cannot prescribe to the "contempt" theory nor to some of the harsh terms, the finality of the way in which you speak of difficult child's.
This board has members who didn't walk into a life for 2 years to try to help, it is chalk full of parents who have their own children struggling with some pretty major issues. We've seen it ALL here, up to and including the difficult children that thrive and overcome, to the difficult children who may never see the light of day but from behind prison bars. We have many of us had to detach from difficult children and not involve ourselves in their lives. One thing never heard here before in all of my 12 years as a member, is such blatant loathing and writing off of a person simply because that person has not been "reached" and assistance offered did not impact change in a difficult child.
With respect, I would personally like to state my own opinion (I speak only for myself) that I find it very uninviting to read posts where there is blatant loathing, contempt and characterization of "unreachable" from a poster regarding a difficult child. Again speaking only for myself, I find it harmful to the community to have posts so blatantly scathing and hateful sounding. It is bound to get peoples hackles raised as it seems to be offensive to not only me but to other members, to read posts that are inflammatory in part.
I have seen much growth and learning in your posts over time. I have also been given good food for thought from many of your posts. I believe everyone can contribute in a forum such as this and add to the dynamic, the thoughts of members, the growth process we are all going through. I also think that in participating in such a closely formed collective membership with many very long term members, it is vital that one considers what they've typed before they've posted.
I do not mean to cause offense and I truly hope I haven't. I just feel that as a long term member, perhaps by speaking how I'm feeling with some posts might be helpful so that all members might think about why they are here, what they hope to gain and what they hope to offer. Approach is everything.
There is a big difference from deciding to detach from a person who is a difficult child, has a mental health issue, or addictions, that isn't helping themselves and is too chaotic to continue to be involved with, vs writing the person as a whole off with "Contempt" and some pretty drastic words to characterize them.
I think that perhaps this forum isn't the place for you if you cannot see that while we have often posted appreciation for your attempts to help your sis and difficult child nephew, we also cannot prescribe to the "contempt" theory nor to some of the harsh terms, the finality of the way in which you speak of difficult child's.
This board has members who didn't walk into a life for 2 years to try to help, it is chalk full of parents who have their own children struggling with some pretty major issues. We've seen it ALL here, up to and including the difficult children that thrive and overcome, to the difficult children who may never see the light of day but from behind prison bars. We have many of us had to detach from difficult children and not involve ourselves in their lives. One thing never heard here before in all of my 12 years as a member, is such blatant loathing and writing off of a person simply because that person has not been "reached" and assistance offered did not impact change in a difficult child.
With respect, I would personally like to state my own opinion (I speak only for myself) that I find it very uninviting to read posts where there is blatant loathing, contempt and characterization of "unreachable" from a poster regarding a difficult child. Again speaking only for myself, I find it harmful to the community to have posts so blatantly scathing and hateful sounding. It is bound to get peoples hackles raised as it seems to be offensive to not only me but to other members, to read posts that are inflammatory in part.
I have seen much growth and learning in your posts over time. I have also been given good food for thought from many of your posts. I believe everyone can contribute in a forum such as this and add to the dynamic, the thoughts of members, the growth process we are all going through. I also think that in participating in such a closely formed collective membership with many very long term members, it is vital that one considers what they've typed before they've posted.
I do not mean to cause offense and I truly hope I haven't. I just feel that as a long term member, perhaps by speaking how I'm feeling with some posts might be helpful so that all members might think about why they are here, what they hope to gain and what they hope to offer. Approach is everything.
M
mrsammler
Guest
I've encountered this response 3 or 4 times, mostly in my early involvement in this forum and almost never since then: my point of view is verboten. I should leave the forum if I can't cleave onto a set, predetermined, acceptable position in line with whoever is unhappy with what I've said. At the same time, I've been told that my perspective as one of the very few males in this forum is valued. My perspective--entirely wrt my own difficult child nephew and not anyone else's difficult child (I have underscored this heavily and repeatedly)--was and is fully earned by experience.
I'll make it easy for this forum: if a moderator finds my contributions here to be harmful or so problematic as to be without merit or usefulness, email me offlist (I think moderators have access to members' email addresses) and ask me to quit the forum, and I will, politely and silently and without fuss or drama. I respect the moderators here and defer to their wisdom. But lacking that input/direction, I have to admit that I think your post seeks to silence another member because his position on his own very specific experience is unacceptable to you. I can respect your feelings about this--sincerely--but I'm not sure I can respect a call to a member to quit the forum because you dislike what he has to say, especially when his/her posts are driven by authentic and hard-won experience and are not presented judgmentally or combatively. I might judge my difficult child nephew very sternly--that is *my* experience and my position and it makes perfect sense to me, and I feel I have inarguably earned that position via hard experience--but I do not ask you to do the same with yours or anyone else's. Nor are my posts a subtle invocation for others to give up hope, judge difficult children sternly or unforgivingly, or what have you. And frankly, I find it very problematic that a member should call for another member to be silenced unless he/she is being combative or judgmental or a nuisance. If anything is transgressive, *that* is.
I'll make it easy for this forum: if a moderator finds my contributions here to be harmful or so problematic as to be without merit or usefulness, email me offlist (I think moderators have access to members' email addresses) and ask me to quit the forum, and I will, politely and silently and without fuss or drama. I respect the moderators here and defer to their wisdom. But lacking that input/direction, I have to admit that I think your post seeks to silence another member because his position on his own very specific experience is unacceptable to you. I can respect your feelings about this--sincerely--but I'm not sure I can respect a call to a member to quit the forum because you dislike what he has to say, especially when his/her posts are driven by authentic and hard-won experience and are not presented judgmentally or combatively. I might judge my difficult child nephew very sternly--that is *my* experience and my position and it makes perfect sense to me, and I feel I have inarguably earned that position via hard experience--but I do not ask you to do the same with yours or anyone else's. Nor are my posts a subtle invocation for others to give up hope, judge difficult children sternly or unforgivingly, or what have you. And frankly, I find it very problematic that a member should call for another member to be silenced unless he/she is being combative or judgmental or a nuisance. If anything is transgressive, *that* is.
flutterby
Fly away!
You *are* judgmental. Every time you refer to difficult children as a whole, you are being judgmental. Every time we point it out, you backtrack, and then you do it again. On the same thread, even, as evidenced here. You have obviously offended several members, presently and in the past. This isn't the first time this has come up.
We are parents of difficult children, who are living it and trying to survive, and help our children. Now that you have stated that you think of your difficult child with contempt, and you consistently compare all difficult children to your single, short lived experience, and we have difficult children as bad or worse than yours, do you honestly think people are going to feel comfortable posting?
We are parents of difficult children, who are living it and trying to survive, and help our children. Now that you have stated that you think of your difficult child with contempt, and you consistently compare all difficult children to your single, short lived experience, and we have difficult children as bad or worse than yours, do you honestly think people are going to feel comfortable posting?
Steely
Active Member
Thank you Flutter and MattsMom - you said what I feel perfectly.
MrS you are being combative simply by saying you have given up hope on your nephew!
This forum is about encouragement, love, hope, and wisdom.
We are here to listen to you air your misgivings about your own flesh and blood - but we are not here for you when your family member does not comply with what you feel they should do - and you write them off.
There are many other forums that you can do that on - but we are not it.
MrS you are being combative simply by saying you have given up hope on your nephew!
This forum is about encouragement, love, hope, and wisdom.
We are here to listen to you air your misgivings about your own flesh and blood - but we are not here for you when your family member does not comply with what you feel they should do - and you write them off.
There are many other forums that you can do that on - but we are not it.
M
mrsammler
Guest
Fair enough. I'll quit the forum.
H
HaoZi
Guest
I have to wonder what the cashier is thinking when someone buys nothing but huge amounts of nutmeg.
flutterby
Fly away!
difficult child 2 has drank bleach in the past to pass a drug test. He smokes pot, at the very least, every day and is never concerned about passing a drug test. I don't know what he does, but he passed an employers' drug test and he shouldn't have. Or he said he did, anyway.
I cannot imagine pouring alcohol into your eye. That has to burn like hell.
I cannot imagine pouring alcohol into your eye. That has to burn like hell.
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