Are any of our kids at this school that had the shooting?

DammitJanet

Well-Known Member
Why? I really am curious. I am NOT in favor of the assault rifles except under the very strict situations I laid out before and if those were set out, I seriously doubt that we would see many falling into the wrong hands because they would have to be going to only collectors who had very strict guidelines in place. Now of course, all things are possible because there are criminals involved but to think that just outlawing guns is going to stop this type of crime is like thinking you are going to stop drunk driving by removing cars. It isnt the cars that are the problems, it is the people who drive the cars while drunk. It isnt the guns that are killing people, it is the people who are shooting them. A gun in and of itself cannot kill anyone. It is an inanimate object.

I have 4 of them leaning against a shelf in my pantry in my kitchen. They arent loaded but the ammo is on the shelf right above them. For most of my kids lives, the guns sat in a corner of my bedroom and half the time they were loaded. They were taught from the time they could walk and talk to respect guns. None of mine would have ever been a school shooter. They are hunters. They have hunted since age 6. The only reason we keep the ammo separate now is because we dont have the grand kids full time to teach them. We did have Keyana trained from as early as 15 months to look at the gun and say "papa gun...no touch...bad go boom"

Oh and as far as why did I need guns loaded in my bedroom? I stayed home alone for as long as a week or two....sometimes a month at a time, often without a phone at home. Even if I had a phone where we live is fairly rural and it would take a cop at least 20 to 30 minutes to get to me if they could find me. By that time anything could happen. I didnt have the option of waiting on the police. Also we have wild animals such as bobcats, snakes and coyotes that come in our yard. I dont want to meet anything of the two legged or 4 legged variety entering my home. I had to protect my small kids at the time.
 

hearts and roses

Mind Reader
truly, one doesn't need to be a maths genius or statistician to figure it out. These figures are from a few years ago but the proportions will be roughly the same now, i imagine. In england and wales, where gun ownership is illegal other than for hunting purposes, and strictly licensed and controlled, 6.6 per cent of all homicides involve a firearm and 6.2 people per 100 own a gun. In the us, 60 per cent of homicides involve a firearm and 88 people per 100 own a gun. Fewer guns = fewer people dying from guns. It's not all that surprising.

completely agree!!!
 

DammitJanet

Well-Known Member
Well we can split this thread off and argue gun rights. There is a reason why the founding fathers put the 2nd Amendment into our Constitution to make us different from England.
 

hearts and roses

Mind Reader
Our country is a very different and much more populated place today compared to what it was in 1776. It may just be time to reevaluate.

First and foremost, as we all know, mental health care in our country stinks and that truly needs to be addressed ASAP!
 

1905

Well-Known Member
We have a gun next to our back door and under the beds, ammo is right above. We have knives in our kitchen, just like everyone, we know what they are used for. Just because you have a knife in your kitchen, doesn't mean it's for killing someone. Why shouldn't we protect ourselves if we need to?

My aunt and uncle went on a vacation to the Grand Canyon and stayed in private villa. They were tied up and robbed. They were left there tied up. This was about 20 years ago. Now, my uncle always has a gun on his back and ankle, one under both front seats of their cars, and one in each trunk. Why should the bad guys get away with that?

I do understand some fears a person may have, but a swimming pool can kill you if you can't swim. It's the same thing.
 

Hound dog

Nana's are Beautiful
Take a look at the US statistics for violent crime during the era in history when gun ownership was common and every household owned at least one. It was extremely low.

I know that we seem very similar culturally to England, yet we're not. Not in a lot of very basic ways of thinking. And for good reasons. Which is why our laws have developed the way they have.

The guns aren't to blame, the person who pulled the trigger is to blame, mentally ill or not. Without a gun he could have achieved the same goal, just by different means, most especially in this modern technological age. His victims could have been more or less depending on methods used.

Our press is not helping either, this constant coverage of tragedies such as these, giving the shooters much more media attention than they should ever have, glamorizing horror, makes it appealing to the right mind set to repeat or one up the last guy.

It's also that violence has become a large part of our lives; it's in the programs we watch, our popular music, video games in volumes never seen before. Don't believe me? How many on this post stated either that they're used to it "being HS or above" or "it's different because of the age group". Really? It should be equally horrifying regardless of age group or amount of victims. This was senseless loss of life. Yet it isn't because we've become so accustomed to violence that it does not phase us the way it did a century ago. We see it but are apart from it, disassociated from it. It doesn't affect us personally. Back then you didn't see acts of violence unless it affected you personally, it had more impact and you did not grow accustomed to it.

Jo, I liked your post because you said Mental Health in this country needs to be reevaluated ASAP, you couldn't be more right. That is where our focus needs to be right now. Most of our severely mentally ill people are walking the streets, a danger to both themselves and society. Yet they go untreated because the severely mentally ill do not voluntarily go for treatment even if they can afford to do so......they don't believe they're ill. It's next to impossible to get them into treatment, and if you do manage there is no long term treatment available because those facilities are nearly completely gone.....what facilities remain have long waiting lists. Society likes to believe we became more "humane" when we closed state hospitals ect. We developed psychiatric medications and believed they were the "cure all". Well, we've had enough time now to see both are untrue. Now our mentally ill crowd prisons (so much more humane huh?) and nursing homes where staff is not trained properly to deal with them. Many more live homeless on the streets unable to cope in society. Extended families are left to deal the best way they can, while given no real means of doing so. We of all people should know that only too well.

I probably didn't explain myself very well. I just "woke" up after basically no sleep for my 4th day and haven't yet taken even a sip of coffee.
 

hearts and roses

Mind Reader
You are exactly correct, Lisa...even those people who have access to mental health care and can afford it, resist it. Case in point, my mother in law. She is a clinically depressed person and has been for forty years...yet, she refuses to acknowledge it or accept it and get help. Or, my husband who can admit that 'at times feels depressed' but not acknowledge that he, like his mom, has long term clinical depression that waxes and wanes, like most people with chronic illnesses.

Part of the issue is cost and availability, as I've experienced lately when young to find difficult child a psychiatrist...next to impossible in my area unless you're an adolescent or geriatric! There's also the societal stigma attached to acknowledging a mental disorder....people hear labels and assume instead of researching or finding out the truth about aspects of whatever mental disorder their child or family member has. I hear people talking about someone in their family with a mental disorder and when they say the name of the disorder, they lower their voices...as if it's a dirty word. And this attitude and these perceptions go all the way to the US capital (not a political statement) and involves insurance companies, lobbyists, and the almighty dollar. The only times when the state of mental health is addressed in the media is when something tragic happens. Suddenly, everyone is asking, "What are we going to do about the mentally ill?"

When I was growing up, we had mental institutions...they existed under deplorable conditions. The residents were not treated, they were drugged. When human rights groups came out to protest these conditions and resources dried up, mental health patients were released back to their families or placed in half way homes in cities, on their own. Just think how many of us have tried to find good inpatient care for our difficult children. Everything is outpatient dr or clinic visits that last from 15 minutes to an hour. Some people need more than that. I'm definitely not suggesting we go back to housing all mentally ill people in institutions, but we do need to find a middle ground and make mental healht care a priority and affordable for everyone who needs it.

The continued debate over gun control and mental health care is so disheartening...we are a small group of people. How long would it take for us to find a happy medium on these issues? And we expect our government, state and federal, to be able to just change overnight? Give it a few weeks, I bet this issue dies down and be dead in the water again.
 

muttmeister

Well-Known Member
I'm reading with interest your discussion on guns. First let me state, I come from a family that hunts and I own a gun. However, I don't see the need for the general public to have assault rifles and the kinds of guns that are made only to kill a lot of people in a short time.

A friend of mine, last night on Facebook, said that this is progress; people used to kill each other with rocks. I pointed out to him that it would be very difficult to kill nearly 30 people in a short time with a rock. I don't think many people in this country would ever suggest that we should get rid of ALL guns but why do we make it so easy to do these things?

If you look at the statistics from all over the world (as was stated above) either guns are the problem or else Americans are horrible, blood thirsty nuts who go around killing their own more than any other nationality. I have to believe the first is true and not the second.

ON one hand, this is modern life in America. We have these mass killing occasionally and controlling guns will not totally eliminate the problem but you can't tell me that if we made it harder to get a gun and regulated the kinds of weapons people could have, that it would not help.

I also agree with those of you who have pointed out that it is a mental health problem. We are absolutely awful at making help available for people who need it. They often don't get evaluated, they don't get treated, they don't get medicated and facilities to help them are not available. Perhaps, given the power of the gun lobby and the futility of trying to get anything done on that front, the mental health issue is one we should all be focusing on first.
 
This tragedy does indeed break my heart, and for so many reasons. I cannot imagine how the parents (and other students) at this school are going to move forward after this experience. It goes without saying that the parents and families of the deceased children and staff members have a long journey ahead of them. The Christmas season will never, ever be the same for them, or really anyone in this town.

As the parent of a 21 year old son with Asperger's Disorder, I am doubly saddened and frankly, terrified. Our road has already been difficult and I imagine it will only become more difficult. There is no known effective treatment for Asperger's or autism. We're really out here on our own, trying to make a plan for our adult children. I'm sure that the truth about this situation will unfold in time, but I already have my own ideas about how this disability might have caused a marriage to fail and how a mother and son tried to make a life together. Those of you who are dealing with these issues understand. It's hard to believe that this mother had these weapons for herself. My guess is she may have bought them for her son. Possibly we will never know, but I think everyone will agree that it was a very poor lapse of judgement - whatever the reason.

Around six years ago, at exactly this time of year, the 22 year old estranged mentally ill son of our next door neighbors murdered his father and his grandfather - with a knife. We knew this boy throughout his childhood and we witnessed his mental decline. His father fought hard to get him treatment, but as an adult he made a choice to stop taking his medication and stop his treatment. There was nothing that his family could do about this. The day before he committed the crime, he went to a local charity hospital and told the intake worker there that he felt like hurting someone. He was sent away, and told to come back the following week. This fact caused a big scandal here for a while, but I can tell you that nothing has changed. Mental health treatment has changed, but not in a good way - it is even more difficult to obtain. Because of this situation, my husband and I have become even more involved in the local mental health system, trying to make changes where we can. It is an uphill battle. In my humble opinion, our culture is not willing to spend the money necessary to treat mental illness. It is so tragic that a situation like this has to happen.
 

Tiapet

Old Hand
Wow! When I started this thread it was a question, a hot one I knew might get people talking but never to the degree it has. This is a good thing though. I stay out of gun control arguements. Not because I don't have an opinion, I very much do but my focus is on mental health and always has been and will continue to be until the day I die!

We NEED proper mental health care. We NEED it to be available and accessible to everyone and anyone that needs it. We NEED to have good continuity of care across systems and agencies. We NEED it to be affordable. We NEED NOT to have the stigma attached to it from years past, present and going into the future that has been placed there not only by the media coverage in how they handle stories but also the politicians that bad talk it and every and any other source that has done so!

There are so many of us here, on this board. Some of us post, some of us don't (they lurk and read but they are here and we know it! :) ) I have always made an effort to "educate where I'm at with what I know" as much as possible and I know many of you do as well. It is a very hard thing to do sometimes as we run into opposition. Opposition from our friends (or so called friends it turns out at times), family, schools, doctors, agencies, etc. It is a daunting task I know but in the end it is so worth it. Over the years this task has, and I know we've discussed this too, has caused PTSD due to the repercussions I alone have encountered with certain "people" within these stated groups. We as parents often get blamed for our children's problems when all we were doing to begin with is trying to get help for our children from the get go. Does this happen all the time? No but it does happen and that is not helpful.

Some of our kids are in such states that we worry that something like this could potentially happen now or in the future so we work very hard to access the services and supports to help them and us. Does it make us/them a target? Maybe but at least we TRY to do the right thing because we DON'T want to see this happen to them or to others. I know I don't want to have to be the one explaining to ANYONE why one of mine might have done this or to be apologizing to families either. I would be devastated. I don't know how I could live with myself (assuming difficult child's didn't take me out too) anyway. Any you know what, I'm not even just talking about killing. I'm talking about harm in ANY way because some of our kids can harm kids in other ways too.

So what do we also do? We ISOLATE ourselves from others as well because we know interactions are painful with neighbors, family, friends, etc. Why is this? Oh, it's because of this same JUDGEMENTS of others due to the stigma that has been built up of mental illness because the world at large is not fully educated on it and let's face it, in reality even IF we could educate everyone properly there will still be those who will and do deny that mental health exist to this day. I know some people like that! I believe that in general we are progressing towards education of the world in general but not enough, quick enough and I don't think properly. There is a lot of MISINFORMATION going on out there too. Who's to blame for this? Media? Who?

The other thing that annoys me is that the DSM criteria changes. I know it needs to be updated but to change completely at times? Really? For example this year's change of taking Aspergers out. Why? If we can't rely on the DSM to be consistent at the very least then how are we ever going to have any firm basis of which to go on? I understand that it needs to be update and new things added or changed but to completely take some things out when they are real? THAT I just don't understand!

There are many good organizations out there like NAMI, NMH, FFMH, etc. But I wonder, if we could combine all of these into 1 world organization wouldn't the efforts be better, more focused and the money the spent/collect/get granted be better served? I mean often each of these organizations are doubling or tripling the same focus or efforts on something.

I don't know. These are just my thoughts.
 

Kathy813

Well-Known Member
Staff member
I want to say that the teachers were heroes in that school yesterday. I hear so much teacher bashing going in on the radio and cable news and have even seen it on this site. However, there have been many reports coming out about those teachers yesterday keeping their students calm while hiding them and keeping them safe. Some of them were even reading books to their students while listening to gunshots outside their doors and over the intercom.

I cannot even imagine the terror.

~Kathy
 
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1905

Well-Known Member
It's so awful. We were scared and horrified at our school in NJ, how could this happen to precious children??? Our Principal and Vice Principal came to our classes and told us to not allow access to the internet. We didn't want the children to see any of this.

My sister lives the next town over, her kids were locked down all day at their school. They didn't know if there were more shooters because the guy did have more guns. She has friends whose children went there, they are all ok. My sister had them over for dinner last night.

My cousin is mentally ill and a drug addict. She has been in and out of hostpitals and institutions it's so sad! She's usually in for 1-3 months and then she's out for a short while, then she's back in etc..She doesn't get better. Nothing really helps her. She's been in the best places and the worst. My heart breaks for them. It's a nightmare for the whole family. What else can be done though? What kind of help is there? She's almost 30, she used to work for the federal govt, she became very ill, she never gets better. Even if all the money in the world were used, how can the problem be fixed?
 

TerryJ2

Well-Known Member
I just read the news article that talked about his social awkwardness and high intelligence. Yep, it's obvious.
Now, having said I think that guns, in the right hands are fine, I do not undertand why we "have" to have assault weapons, and personally, I do not own a gun nor would I ever, ever have one in the house with-my son, who has both Aspgerger's and bipolar. Not that he couldn't find one anywhere, but I just wouldn't do it on my watch.
I have no idea what went on in that household but I am so sorry that it came down that way for his mom, and we won't know what he was thinking because he didn't leave an obvious trail. I'm guessing that he was perseverating on something and no one knew or took it seriously, because he had no outward aggression.

I agree with-so many of the posts here, that this country needs help with-mental health care and autism. I hope, hope, hope that this may be a turning point for those who are too embarrassed and stigmatized. Would you rather be embarrassed, or dead? I made that decision long ago.

d*G, what a tragedy. So awful.
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
I can understand that the right to carry a gun arose out of the ethos of the early pioneer days in America. Although I do not agree with it personally, I can also understand why people might think it made sense for people to have guns to protect themselves. What I do feel certain of, though, is that if you put a dangerous weapon within easy reach of people, they will use it more readily than if it were not. There is something about the anonymity and frightening "distance" of a gun that also comes into play; those who would never have the gall to murder people with a knife or some other way that involves physical contact have merely to squeeze a trigger for death to ensue... Who can say for certain that this tragedy in CT would never have happened if the young man responsible had not had ready access to a rifle, but it seems more than likely.
 
H

HaoZi

Guest
The only thing I've read on it is the latest from CNN.com, and it mentions nothing about mental illness whatsoever, just that they're trying to figure out why he did it. So sad and infuriating at the same time that someone would do something like this to helpless children.

ETA: If you want to go into the psychology of blade vs. gun for killing, blades are personal, close in weapons. Guns not only allow physical, but also emotional distance as well as a higher body count (often, not always, as a successful serial killer could tell you). A blade is for when you personally want to absolutely destroy someone on a very personal level and you want to do it very personally. Yes, I spent much of my youth and college learning immersed in such things.
 

DDD

Well-Known Member
One news segment about mental illness had a truthful ring toit. An expert stated that parents most often know that their young adult child has serious mental issues but that they are not able to impose help since the child is an adult. Then he (or a cohort on at the same time) stated that most of these murderers are either teens or young adults and that the school systems Nationwhide "could" have a psychological test offered to all students in hopes of providing help to those who seem to need it. Brief discussion followed. One of the positive aspects of the idea was that the student would be speaking/testing with a caring stranger...not a hated teacher or a family doctor or the parents. It seemed to me that their "might" be some merit to the idea.

The other thing that is catching my attention is "he seemed like a nice kid who just preferred to be alone and not with others". WHAT? Almost all of our difficult children want nothing more than to be with others and like others. How naive. DDD
 
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