W

WearyWoman

Guest
Beachpeace - Thanks so much for the hugs . . . heaven knows I need them. I have read about Risperdal, but the side effects really concern me. How has your experience been with it that way? Your signature line mentions Fetal Alcohol Effects (FAE) for Blue. I am curious about it, as we adopted our son at birth and don't know for sure about all of the medical information. Is there any way to get that ruled out for a non-newborn? If you've experienced the rages, my heart goes out to you too. I hope you're having a good day.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
From our experience risperdal was of minimal help, although it did make enough difference to keep trying with it for a while.
The side effects were weight gain and sleepiness, and went away (gained weight was lost again) when we stopped the risperdal.

Talk to the doctor, see what he thinks.

Marg
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Ah, so you also adopted your c hild. If the birthmother drank or used drugs during her pregnancy your child is a candidate for Fetal Alcohol Effects (FAE).
 
Last edited:
W

WearyWoman

Guest
Marg, I can tell that you really understand your child, and that's what I'm striving for. I have decided to observe him more and to keep a journal. In thinking about it, the meltdowns are happening when he has to switch from his agenda to someone else's. Otherwise, he is generally a very loving kid. Also, he overreacts (in contrast to typical kids) to small things, like if somebody touches his Lego helicoptor, he worries that it could break -- and it's likea life-or-death situation. I have a lot of anxiety myself thinking about the therapists coming this week and worrying about more of the rages. We've had a good weekend with him so far, but haven't required him to do reading or writing, etc., or other things that trigger his explosions either. A discussion with the therapists is needed, for sure. Thanks for the info about Risperdal. I'm so leary of going that route and probably won't unless we run out of other options.

Midwest, thanks for the information on Fetal Alcohol Effects (FAE). Our son's birthmom said she did not drink during her pregnancy but that she did smoke for the first few months before she knew she was pregnant. She was also breastfeeding her older child while pregnant with difficult child. She had ADHD herself. Her older son developed typically, although his bio father is different than difficult child's. We have zero info on bio father. But I do wonder sometimes if it's possible difficult child was exposed to alcohol or drugs prenatally. I sure hope not, but I can't shake the fear. I read through the things listed on the report you linked, and many of those things don't fit, which is good, I guess. difficult child has autism, but as I said, I wonder about alcohol/drug exposure on top of that. :(
 
B

BeachPeace

Guest
Good Morning!
Blue was adopted at age 5 from the United States Foster Care System. We had very limited information about his bio mom's pregnancy as she did not receive any prenatal care. She never admitted to much (said she had a "few" drinks and smoked "a little bit"). She lost custody of Blue by the State after many, many incidents of abuse, child endangerment and neglect and various arrests. In the court documents we were able to find out that she was arrested for prostitution and meth possession while she was pregnant. The state listed "fetal methamphetamine exposure" in his medical record. Bio mom also has a mental illness.
Ok - whew - that is enough about that. I have a hard time reconciling my anger at the length of time it took the State to terminate her rights.
Anyway - Blue looks and acts very similar to an autistic child, but he does not meet the DSM-IV criteria. He has no physical features of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS) - and he does not meet the diagnostic criteria of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS). He has been diagnosed with Mental Retardation - not otherwise specified. His IQ has been tested as low as 60s and as high as 70. His neurologist uses the MR diagnosis - but did add in Fetal Alcohol Effects (FAE). Neurologist has expressed his frustration at not being able to specifically classify neurodevelopmental damage due to drug use, thus the MR-not otherwise specified (Not Otherwise Specified). He also has an abnormal EEG. (actually pretty common with any brain damage)
neuropsychologist evaluation added the PTSD diagnosis. That is much, much better as he now sleeps through the night without the screaming night terrors. He will still rarely "shut down" and just get into fetal position and not respond to anywone when he gets scared.
The rages come and go.....like big temper tantrums from a toddler in a 75 pound body. The last phase of increased raging was apparently brought on by an ear infection (I am a RN and still cannot understand how I forgot to check that) After looking at his labs (we have Liver Function, Depakote level, and CBC done every 3 months) his neurologist also increased his Abilify and made a new order for prn (as needed) Risperdal.
I am also worried about side effects. We could discuss that into the ground and still never have peace about it. All I can tell you is that from a medical standpoint - we do labs every 3 months, we see a neurologist (brain damage is neurological, not psychiatric) every 3 months and as needed, and we feel that we are giving him every opportunity we have to function the best he can with all of the tools available.
My daughter Indigo (almost 11) is on the Spectrum - initally diagnosis'd with Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-not otherwise specified as a toddler, then the psychiatrist changed that to Asperger's at about age 7? Anyway, she always had an increase in aggression (not any raging) with any stimulant, and finally she settled in to Strattera. Worked great for many years, then she stopped sleeping. psychiatrist added Intuniv and after a few weeks of that combo she was really having side effects. So we all agreed to try a "drug holiday" - surprisingly after a few rough weeks of no sleep, she has fallen into a good routine and seems to feel better. So right now no medications for her.
Whew. I don't know where all that came from, but I just wanted to share. Good Luck and I am glad you are here!
 
W

WearyWoman

Guest
Beach - Wow, and thanks so much for sharing. Blue has sure been through a lot, and I'm so sorry to hear how slow the system was in terminating parental rights. We adopted our oldest difficult child (now 16) through the foster care system, and he had been in foster care for years before his birthmom's rights were terminated. Like your Blue, our older difficult child suffered through the non-termination period while the state dragged its feet. The day we went to court to hear if the judge was going to terminate parental rights for him, another foster family walked out of the courtroom before us. The foster dad was so angry at the result of their proceeding, he said, "The state never terminates parental rights unless the bio parent practically kills the child." That really scared us going in, as we couldn't imagine our foster son going back to that environment after living with us for years. Amazingly, the judge did terminate parental rights on the spot, versus scheduling yet another future hearing. I guess we were one of the lucky ones.

It sounds like you received great evaluations and treatment help for Blue. The EEG findings are fascinating. I'm glad to know that tests exist as indicators. Does Blue have any issues with cause-and-effect thinking? I suppose his issues all depend on the specific areas of his brain that are affected - so sad that the bio mother cared so little about his welfare. I'm sure your little guy will have many good things in his future, thanks to your love and care.

We've taken our younger Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) difficult child off the afternoon stimulants, and we're moving his Clonidine earlier in the afternoon to see if he has a smoother time. So far, he's been a little too hyper, but it's better than the rages. Therapy starts up again tomorrow, and that will be the real test.

Thanks for posting!
 

TerryJ2

Well-Known Member
I totally agree with-the others.

However ... (you knew that was coming ... ;))
in answer to this two-fold question: Do we just let him do whatever he wants to do so that he doesn't have a meltdown, or do we keep trying to help him adapt to requests and instructions? Maybe there is a middle ground somewhere

I would say choose your battles. One thing we have done is allow difficult child to eat in the LR in front of the TV on occasion. I used to insist he come to the table at dinnertime, but he ruined so many meals, it just wasn't worth it.
Now we tell him which nights are family nights and as long as he gets his way part of the time, he's okay with-it. (Of course, he's 13 now, which makes a big diff.)

I never allow difficult child to get into the car with-o a seatbelt. He nearly took off my arm once by kicking me, but I will not budge on that one. He's much better at remembering his seatbelt than my easy child is now.

Our therapist outlined a plan for me to actually create rages in my son. Sounds weird, but it worked. It took wks and mo's but it was worth it (now that it's over ... at the time, I thought I'd lose my mind). I would pick up difficult child from school, (that's an automatic assumption of stress; he's tired from school, plus it's a transition) but I also brought a snack. He would say "Where are we going?" Some days I'd say "Home" and go straight home. Other days, I'd say, "Grocery store, post office, and dropping something off at a friend's house" (or whatever). Then I would deliberately change the order, guaranteeing a meltdown.
Sometimes I would drive around and let him rage. Other times I would pull the car over and tell him to be quiet.
I can't believe he never kicked out the windshield, because he came very close a few times!
He ruined many CDs at a huge cost, but he was so young, I never had him replace them.

I put phone books in the car for him to shred, too. Sometimes if I were going inside, say, when he was 5 and I had to run to the grocery store for 1 quick thing, I'd let him sit in the car and shred phone books. Unfortunately, he'd find the one or 2 nice books I had and shred those, too. I asked him why he did that and he said, "It relaxes me."
Good thing he learned to use words because when he was much younger, I thought he was being spiteful.
If I could go back in time ...

Anyway, aside from giving him (and myself) a quick break, I normally did not leave him in the car alone. I had to put up with-the raging.
After a few tries, he calmed down. And so did I. I learned that I could cause a rage by doing X,Y, Z, which gave me a huge sense of empowerment and comprehension I hadn't had b4. And of course, it taught me what NOT to do, LOL!

It also taught him coping skills. It taught him that even though he wasn't in total control of his environment, the world was not coming to an end. I was still his mom; we're still in the same car; we're still doing the errands, albeit in a diff order; he still goes home to the same house and sleeps in the same bed.
Quite often, I'd start a parrotting or call-and respond conversation that went, "Who's in charge?"
"Mom is."
"Louder."
"Mom is."
"Who's in charge?"
Sigh.
"Come on."
"Mom."
"Louder!"
"MOM IS!"
It helped get some of the stress out of his system, even though he didn't want to admit I was in charge, but yelling can be therapeutic. :tongue:

It took him yrs to calm down to where he can say/shout he'd rather not go somewhere (he still shouts when he doesn't want to do something and we're working on that), rather than have a total rage.
He was way ahead of other kids I saw who were still raging out of control at age 9, for example. (Don't get me wrong; he still rages. He just doesn't do it in public any more.)

You won't get rid of all the rages, at least at this age. Your goal is to recognize what trigger the rages; how NOT to ramp him up; and to teach him to communicate to you that he is feeling out of control and needs a break. (Too bad the time out card didn't work. What a shame, for something that is supposed to work. Grrr.) Eventually, he will learn the feeling of an oncoming rage and prevent it by either walking out of the room or just telling someone he's not feeling well or is agitated, and to give him space.

I hope this helps and doesn't confuse you more!
 

TerryJ2

Well-Known Member
WW, thanks for the background info. It is always a struggle, trying to figure out a difficult child's bio history. The fact that the bio mom had ADHD is a very good easy child of info for you.

Beach, wow, now that I've typed in all that info on transitioning and our car rides, I honestly don't know if that would work for your son. If he had neurological damage from meth or other drugs, I don't know if therapy would be the same as neurological issues for Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) that is genetic.
Anyway, take it or leave it, as you wish.

I'm right there with-you in regard to anger against the state/gov. etc. They take way too long to process paperwork. These are children's lives and futures in the balance, not just a pile of papers that you get to on a Mon morning.

Never mind. I'm preaching to the choir. ;)
 

Marguerite

Active Member
Terry, the method you describe sounds harrowing. It is an important lesson for a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-ish child to learn, but I would use gentler methods if at all possible. Of course, it is not always possible.

Our method is slower perhaps (I'm not so sure though; when difficult child 3 is provoked to raging, we lose a lot of progress and have to start over) but it has worked for us.

It's much the same as yor method, but e vary things less and push as close as we can to rage point, but no further. Then after we get home from the change in routine (or whatever it was) we tak about it. "We just challenged things, and we're OK. In fact, we had a new adventure, we discovered new things and when we look back, there were some fun things too. And next time we have to go to that new place or change the routine, you will remember tat we did it this time and it worked out OK."

What upsets difficult child 3 is when we get off the regular path (literally) and he worries that we are lost. Sometimes we are a little lost, and he gets upset if we don't seem to be taking it seriously. Last tie we did this, we were on the way back to Sydney from Canberra and realised (or thought we realised) we didn't have enough fuel to get to the next service station. So we saw a road sign pointing into the countryside mentioning a town we'd vaguely heard of and turned off. It was a winding country road, getting narrower and more decrepit. When we found the ton there was no fuel station; it had been shut down years earlier and the relic looked like a museum piece. Our only choice then was to continue on a back road towards Canberra again. Now, our sense of direction told us that we would eventually see a sign to Canberra, but to head back to the highway would guarantee we would run out before we got anywhere. Our only hoe was the back road. difficult child 3 was getting increasingly anxious and sarcastic; we had to stop and explain our logic. When we finally fund fuel (we found another larger town, not quite back where we had started from) we were back on the highway and we had some photos I'd taken form the car of a couple of lovely historic towns we want to go back and see. When we have time, and fuel! And difficult child 3 has the experience that we were off track but not lost, and everything was OK. Keeping everyone's cool worked best. It took effort, but he now has a better understanding which he can extrapolate to new situations. If he had raged more, the lesson would have been greatly reduced and his focus would have remained on his anger and on justifying that anger.

Every kid is different. Some can cope with my method better; some would benefit more from Terry's method.

Marg
 
B

BeachPeace

Guest
Uh Yeah Terry, lol - I am not going to provoke anything anytime soon :) I am in survival, get through each day mode. I do hope as Blue stabilizes and gets older I am able to help him process his anger and actually help teach him to control the rages. Just not now. Especially since he is not 100% potty trained. Not a pretty picture :)

WW - Blue does have difficulty processing the cause/effect thought process. Makes correcting behavior difficult as sometimes I really think he has no clue why he is in trouble.

Marg - I like your approach. Blue is mentally about 3-4 years old - so may still be while before I can implement those ideas.
 

TerryJ2

Well-Known Member
BeachPeace, LOL, didn't mean to drive you over the edge, LOL!
He's still not potty trained? Can you take him to school or on errands with-o having a toileting accident?

Marg, yes, it would have been nice to have a method that was less harrowing. Too late now. :sad-very::tongue: Trial by fire for both of us. Maybe it was a bonding experience? Still, he has improved immensely.

What upsets difficult child 3 is when we get off the regular path (literally) and he worries that we are lost.

Wow, that goes for my difficult child, too. He gets really uptight. It won't last long, though. He's better at directions than I am and soon will be reading and interpreting hwy and fwy signs more accurately and adeptly. I'm Wrong Way Corrigan. ;)
 
B

BeachPeace

Guest
Terry -
18 months ago, Blue was not interested in potty training at all. Terrified him. He started Kindergarten in Pull-Ups. Slowly, slowly, he became daytime trained - due to his history of abuse we did not push him at all. He wears underwear all the time now and will have an accident if he has a bad tantrum or gets scared (only maybe 2 x per month now)
He still wears Pull-Ups to bed - only wakes up dry 50% of time. He does take off his Pull up (by himself!) when he wakes up in the morning and puts on his "big boy" underwear.
So he was not daytime trained until he was 6, and still not dry at night.
 

Shari

IsItFridayYet?
You could be speaking of my son.

FWIW, we discovered recently, that he had auditory processing disorder and fairly severe dyslexia and launguage disorders. He passed the schools testing with flying colors, but a good doctor in Oklahoma saw it and we pursued independent testing to confirm it.

Knowing that has helped a lot with the meltdowns. Far cry from good, but its better.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
My son's birthmother was high as a kite when she gave birth to him. He had crack in his system. She never tried to get custody of him at any of the hearings. Yet it took the court FOUR YEARS to terminate the rights that she didn't want. In between we had a teenybopper social worker who decided that L's rages were because we had no idea how to parent him (this from a kid who had just left college) and she tried to remove him from us. We had so much fun! ;)

Autism CAN be caused by prenatal drug/alcohol use. It does not have one cause. Kids exposed to drugs/alcohol have a much higher rate of autistic spectrum disorder. Many, sadly, also have Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS) of Fetal Alcohol Effects (FAE) (which is Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS) light, but still it's brain damage). My son fortunately dodged the Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS)/Fetal Alcohol Effects (FAE) bullet (he understands cause and effect and has no swiss cheese thinking and never rages). It's a matter of hit or miss. I'm happy that he has Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) and not also Fetal Alcohol Effects (FAE). And he has been to some of the best experts in the country for help and evaluation. We were lucky to live in Chicago. The most prominant doctor, Dr. Ira Chasnoff (I think his name was) does a lot of research on Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS)/Fetal Alcohol Effects (FAE) and he is based in Chicago.
 
W

WearyWoman

Guest
Midwest - Thanks so much for the information. I'm horrified at the thought of difficult child having Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS) or Fetal Alcohol Effects (FAE) in combination with the Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) - not otherwise specified, because I understand it is a form of brain damage - permanent and irreversible. He doesn't have the obvious facial features, but in terms of behavior - I wonder. I would love to have a heart-to-heart with his birthmom about it, but she has not kept in contact and seems to prefer things that way. I'm not sure where she is any more. I can't stop the "what if" thinking - all the unknowns. What will the future hold if he does have pre-natal alcohol exposures? I've read that 60% of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS) kids end up in jail later on for the behavior reasons you mentioned. I'm looking up Dr. Chasnoff and wondering if there is any way we can get difficult child evaluted for it. Is it too late to rule it out?
 

Marguerite

Active Member
With children, I don't consider any brain damage to be permanent and irreversible. The brain is a malleable, changeable thing and can be worked on. Read up on Norman Doidge, I love his work and think a lot of it

There is always some hope.

We are born with what we have, but we can modify the environment and give our kids the best opportunity to make the best of what they have.

Marg
 
W

WearyWoman

Guest
Marg, Yes it's best to keep an attitude of hope. Thanks for the post.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
Something we tend to forget these days - the chicken or the egg. We look at the correlation between a drug-using mother and a child with problems, but is it necessarily the drugs? Think - why was the mother using drugs in the first place? Why do people take up drugs? Or maybe it wasn't drugs, but simply someone who didn't look after herself well enough, or someone "not the full quid" as we say in Australia.

My eldest sister adopted two children with problems. "Deferred adoptions" they were called, because the children were a few months older, they had problems tat needed to be identified and had been removed from their birth mothers. What my sister was told, and what was the reality, did not match. We never found out the full truth but we extrapolated it from the things we observed. Later I met a social worker who knew the case of the younger one who told us thing tat were very different. And those children have gone on to become parents, and the findings we've had in their children also tell us a great deal.

Child 1 - my nephew. He arrived at 10 months old, unable to sit without support and unable to crawl. He was wearing a new cotton suit with a blue dummy (pacifier) pinned to his shirt. He didn't know what a the thing was, he'd clearly never had one. When we undressed him (first nappy change) we found that his foreskin was like a trumpet bell - his grandmother had been primary carer and had been of the old school that cleans under an infant's foreskin by rolling it back on itself. There are ways of doing this, and rolling it back is not one of them. Sliding it back is safer. No way was tat kid ever going to have a tight foreskin! Poor kid...

My sister had been told that grandma had been left with the baby after her "retarded" daughter had a baby, then took off. Finally grandma couldn't cope any longer (apparently she wasn't the brightest either - well, we could believe that) and relinquished the boy. My sister and brother in law went to collect the baby; the social worker took him sleeping form his grandma's arms and put him sleeping into my sister's. He stayed sleeping in her arms all the way home (no laws back then on child restraints in cars) and only woke up after she brought him inside. The poor darling clung to my sister like a koala and sobbed. But she worked with him, played with him, and within a week he was sitting unaided and crawling. She had been warned that his developmental delay was likely due to a hereditary mental retardation, but he quickly turned out to be a fast learner. His older brother still believed in Santa Claus, and this little boy at age 4 whispered to me, "We won't tell him it's not true." Streetwise.

But when it came to learning to read, this boy had problems. His older brother read "Little House on the Prairie" at age 6. This boy at 6 couldn't distinguish between "b" and "d"; "p" and q". He reversed them about 50% of the time. His teacher used to say, "He must know the difference, he gets it right half the time."
I pointed out that if he COULD tell the difference but mistook it, he would get it wrong 100% of the time. But with a 50:50 option (reversal) then getting it right half the time was purely random. he could not see there WAS a difference.
I was doing teacher training at the time and so we were fortunate that dyslexia was being talked about. I was able to direct my sister to the right people for my adopted nephew.

My nephew was diagnosed with severe dyslexia. We also noted he had poor muscle tone. He was a class clown - if he fell, he fell like a rag doll and rarely even bruised. Other kids would fall and brace themselves, and break bones.
By this time we were seriously considering that his birth mother's unofficial diagnosis of "mental retardation" may have been due to her inability to read - a hereditary dyslexia. Possibly some in the grandmother too.
My nephew had a raw deal growing up; his adoptive father was a bully who abused him. Nephew ran away from home and got into drugs, not necessarily in that order. He's clean now, after years of trying to ruin his life, and has about four kids (I've lost count). Of these, my sister is in close contact with two of them, both have ADHD and dyslexia. Both are getting help and doing a lot better than their dad.

My adopted niece - she arrived at 7 months, after her third discharge from hospital with malnutrition. It was claimed she was neglected, but her birth parents fought hard to keep her, and the adoption was dragged out for years. The baby was beautiful - clothes hung on her like a supermodel, but she had a bulging tummy. Blonde, blue eyes and beautiful smile. But pasty white skin, you could see the veins in her scalp in stark relief. When my sister held her, the baby would hold her body upright with beautifully straight back. But she wouldn't take her bottle. My sister kept trying to feed her and the baby pushed away. The bottle cooled off and the baby reached for it, but still pushed my sister away. So my sister, against her better judgement, put the baby in the cot with the cold bottle. The baby drank the lot then fell asleep.
And that was the pattern - the only way this baby would take her bottle,was cold, and if she was in her cot. That said to us that this baby had simply been left, ignored and the malnutrition told us she had not always been fed, either.

She grew up bright kid, did well at school but was always very demanding of attention. Jealous of her sister (my sister's natural daughter). Would steal from her sister if she felt she deserved it more. We put tat down to her rough early start.
I bumped into the social worker in my uni studies, when my niece was about 8 years old. I got more of the story - the parents claimed they never neglected her although the social worker agreed with us, the 'cold bottle" told us a lot (or so we thought). I got family info that didn't tally with what my sister was told. There had also been more hospital visits than my sister had been told.

Flash forward. Niece is now in her late 30s, maybe a bit older. She studied early childcare, she has worked for about 20 years in child care. She's smart. She's capable. She has about five kids of her own. Her boys were fine. Then she had a girl. A darling child. But she would scream at feeding time. My niece tried to breastfeed her but couldn't. I remember at a family wedding, easy child 2/difficult child 2 (who is immensely clucky) spent the entire wedding holding this baby. She fed the baby a bottle and the baby took it (much to the mother's surprise, and my sister's). I think it was pure luck, and maybe relaxation. easy child 2/difficult child 2 would have been 12 at the time, which tells me tis baby is now 11 years old.
My capable, trained niece, with four healthy older children, very nearly lost custody of her daughter. he took the baby to hospital because she wasn't feeding well. The baby was diagnosed with malnutrition. The hospital were very angry with my niece for her 'neglect' of the baby. It was only my sister going to bat for her, telling them of the problems that my niece had as an infant, that made the doctors look deeper. Also those years in between gave us a greater degree of medical diagnostics. The baby turned out to have a metabolic problem which, once diagnosed, was able to be managed with diet.
My niece now wonders if that was why her own health as an infant was so bad - it wasn't parental neglect after all, but a genetic condition.
The baby grew out of the metabolic problem, but has turned out to have other learning problems. I believe they have now diagnosed Asperger's.

My niece is a very good mother. She is also a very good child care worker. She lives near her adoptive mother and visits often. They are a close family (apart from nephew's time off the rails). She would not be a neglectful or ignorant parent. But she still nearly had her baby taken form her, and we now believe her birth parents had her taken from them possibly unjustly.

Drugs can be involved and can do damage to the unborn child, we know that. But there can be bigger, underling problems, reasons for the birth mother to be on drugs in the first place. Or simply other problems which can also connect to the reason the mother became pregnant at all (emotional issues, developmental issues, psychological/neurological issues).

Never forget that each of us is a complex mixture of nature and nurture, and nature goes very deep into the genes.

Marg
 
W

WearyWoman

Guest
Marg, it's funny you mentioned about the cold bottle. Our youngest difficult child (age 9), had all sorts of feeding problems as a baby (refulx and larygotracheomalacia too), and he only liked his bottle cold. While others around us thought it cruel, we knew he liked it that way and went with our instincts to adjust to his needs.
 
Top