Been thinking about genetics a lot lately...so is it nature or nurture?

AnnieO

Shooting from the Hip
I skimmed the replies, because... Being in my situation I can see some of both.

Raven's mom was simply too young when she and husband married and had him. But she did her best by her kids. Raven's not perfect (lead foot = nature, from husband), but he's very calm, listens, etc.

Onyxx had rages very young... But Jett, not so much. Now... One, bio was very, very volatile. Also VERY fond of getting drunk. And this is what Onyxx witnessed as a small child. So... Bipolar, rages = nature but violence, drinking = nurture. Or are they?

Jett is more like husband - stay out of the way, head down, glued to a screen, in la-la land. But just short of age 4 he was denied his father quite a lot until age 9, by which time this was ingrained - because he would watch TV or play video games in his room to stay out of bio's, and Onyxx's, way. So - how did he learn this stuff? Not from nurture. That had to be nature. If it was nurture, he and Onyxx would be alike. And they are NOT. Yes, alcohol had an effect - on both kids, I believe.

So now the actual test - to see how Bean turns out. because there will be a LOT of differences - nature and nurture...
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
So now the actual test - to see how Bean turns out. because there will be a LOT of differences - nature and nurture...
Except... not quite. How BEAN turns out is going to be significantly altered in nature because of YOUR genes. And that's BEFORE you get to the impact of nurture...

There's just TOO many variables to make a prediction on a specific case... the best we can do is generalities (about like the weatherman?)
 
N

Nomad

Guest
In graduate school, most of my professors said it was an equal combination.
Some said it was mostly genetics (nature). I have noticed that many of my medical doctors, think it is mostly genetics (nature). I personally think it is mostly genetics (nature) with a tiny amount of environment (nurture).
I think it is 85 to 90 percent nature
10 to 15 percent nurture
Kinda shocking!!!!
 

tiredmommy

Well-Known Member
I look at it this way: Nature is the artist's pallete we are given. We are all endowed with certain colors or hues. Nuture is the brush and the canvas; the person's caregivers and community.
 

Hound dog

Nana's are Beautiful
The thing with this debate that worries me?? Is that we know how rigid the medical community can become in their thinking about things. They've become rather rigid in their belief that mental illness is primarily genetic. While that may very well be the case.........they don't have the diagnostic tests to back it up, because they tend not to even consider a biological / environmental (not talking nurture here but things we're exposed to in everyday life) and so I don't think there is even much research going on in this area at all. The most I've heard this direction is the bipolar pattern on an MRI, I think it was.

Travis got the genetics for autism via husband's family. He got a strong genetic trait for it. As his neuros have said, it was fairly certain that at utter best, Travis would've had the strong traits, but most likely, he'd have been high functioning like his dad. BUT the Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI) from oxygen deprivation at birth.......made it more severe than it would have been otherwise. Now I know many who would say "how do they know?" Well, I can honestly reply........with utter certainty. Every one of my grandsons so far? Show strong autistic traits. Alex is pretty definite Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) and may perhaps be lower functioning than Travis.....and I would imagine being repeatedly "dropped on your head" as an infant would result in quite a bit of brain damage, hence the MRDD diagnosis (sorry I dunno the politically correct diagnosis name). Connor is a carbon copy of Travis at the same age in nearly all areas, except Travis talked a bit better but Connor is trying hard with that. So, while we can't be certain at this age, I'm fairly sure he's autistic as well. And there have been some factors during pregnancy & birth that *might* have contributed in pushing him over the proverbial edge so to speak.

There are various viruses that attack the nervous system in ways that we are only now beginning to realize. Chicken pox becomes dormant and returns as painful shingles. Polio we thought once you recovered that it was over, now we're seeing symptoms reappear in those victims as the virus comes out of dormancy. Other viruses such as strep and the one that causes rheumatic fever affect other organs, not just produce the original infection.

And that is just with viruses, how many more out there that we're aware or unaware of that do similar things and might be affecting the chemical make up or structure of the brain? Then if these viruses make their way into a person who is already genetically predispositioned for a certain disorder...........and the virus attacks the right combo of elements....... I dunno. But at least I'm open minded enough to question if that could be a potential cause.

That goes for all the other environmental factor possibilities as well while leaving parenting totally out of the equation.

But medical science stays pretty much close-minded (unless they stumble across something by accident) and stick to the genetic/parental blame game and don't want to look in other areas. Because while parenting and genetics play a big role, they're not the entire picture, and common sense points that out when you can have children raised in the same house hold come out totally different.

So, in my opinion, this is why as far as mental illness is concerned, we're stuck in the dark ages.........and at this rate we may never get out of them. Because while I understand people with mental illness need the medications offered now, I don't believe necessarily they're the *right* medications.......targeting the *right* things. And that probably will be taken the wrong way. But look at it this way.........if your body needs a certain chemical to function properly, then it should not need ever increasing amounts of that chemical to continue functioning properly. Yet with medications, doses are increased at regular intervals usually.....depending on the person. Eventually they're useless and have to be switched out for something else.

Maybe I can make this make some sense this way. I've been taking lasix (a strong water pill) for at least 15 yrs or more. For the first decade my dose never changed. At that point it needed to be doubled to compensate for the reduced function of my kidneys. I've been at that new dose for 5 yrs. Mental illness (as far as we know) is not a deterioration of brain function of any form. It is believed to be the body simply isn't producing enough of certain chemicals that affect behavior. Ok. Fine. If that is the case..........then once you find the dosage that produces the right amount of chemicals, it should not alter. Why? Because brain functioning is not altered.

And I know some pretty darn smart psychiatrists who are beginning to think the same way.

Nichole went on her medications at about age 15, maybe 14. No argument that at the time she needed them. She took them until she was nearly 18. And not once during those years did she even make it to the starter dose. Because her psychiatrist started people off way below starter dose level and very gradually built them up......because if it was something going to last over a lifetime, you run out of options quickly starting out at a young age and upping the medications too quickly. Her fear of finding a psychiatrist and going back on her medications to deal with some anxiety issues.........that they'll 1. start her too high and 2. won't be as careful increasing doses (as in leaving it the heck alone if it's working)

I'm not saying medications are wrong by any means. But you have to look at the ordeal we go through with our kids (and sometimes ourselves/other family members) with medications...........and wonder if they're barking up the wrong tree.

That's what irks me. Travis has now had 2 neuros who teach neurobiology in medication school as well as neurology. Both very smart men. Both very ticked off at the status quo because they both firmly believe that mental illness is neurobiological with a strong genetic base, with other contributing factors, and it seems the medical community doesn't want to listen to that. They want to attempt to medicate the behaviors away without really trying to discover the cause. That would be like attempting to treat diabetes without having any idea of what caused the behavior issues with high/low blood sugar.

We ask such questions and debate the topic..........and seem to be able to think somewhat outside the box because as parents of mentally ill kids, we have a vested interest. Seems that those who don't have a vested interest just want to medicate behaviors (mask symptoms) and hope it goes away.

Sorry............I seem to have climbed up onto my soapbox this morning. But when you have as many mentally ill loved ones as I do, it can be a rather touchy subject.
 

TerryJ2

Well-Known Member
Lisa, I agree. I posted a piece on the news board on this very topic.
It is interesting, though, that some of us started out believing one thing and after yrs of parenting, believe the other ...
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
Mental illness (as far as we know) is not a deterioration of brain function of any form. It is believed to be the body simply isn't producing enough of certain chemicals that affect behavior. Ok. Fine. If that is the case..........then once you find the dosage that produces the right amount of chemicals, it should not alter. Why? Because brain functioning is not altered.

Ahhh.... but. When the body produces what we need naturally, everything is in balance. But somehow with medications, there is a tendency to become medications-resistant... the body in dealing with the delivery mechanism, eventually finds a way to "not accept" the medication. Some people have this as a major problem... I have a family member who cannot be on any one pain medication for more than 6 months, because after that it quickly loses effectiveness. Has to be off of that one for at least 5 years before it works again. Some kids have to switch which stimulant they are on, because they have become medications-resistant to the first one. Again... this only affects some people, not everybody. I suspect the same is true of MH medications.

The reason why medications are pushed as the treatment of choice for MH? Guess who is paying for MH research.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I am actually appalled at how quickly some psychiatrists or tdocs (who aren't even supposed to diagnose) drum up a disorder. "I saw him one hour and didn't test at all and he has ODD and ADHD." Um, really? Then, of course, out comes the prescription pad and an iffy diagnosis gets medicated with iffy medications.

I've been in the psychiatric system since I was 23 and had my first hospitalization for suicidal depression while pregnant. I have seen A LOT of growth and more understanding of different issues, BUT I still see the psychiatrists hurry with the diagnosis. and prescribe medications way too fast...sort of like throwing everything at the patient to see if anything sticks. I am appalled, especially with kids who are on five medications, to try to address every single symptom. Too many medications rarely work and can make one feel even worse...I do believe some people kill themselves because they'd rather die than be a zombie all their lives. I don't think doctors really understand that medications should be given CAREFULLY and with as few as necessary. They also don't tend to take our complaints about side effects seriously. Often, their answer is, "The dose is too low." HUH? Ever try lowering the dose or admitting the medication isn't working?

I realize this is off topic, but, having been a psychiatric patient from age 23 to now (58 1/2) I wanted to chime in on what I've seen. And experienced. The mental health system needs A LOT of work, even though they are better than when I first started out. There is still a lot that they don't know. Yet many psychiatrists, sadly, are arrogant and will not admit that they haven't a clue what is really going on. I am so tired of the overmedicating. One day I'll write my Lithium story. It almost killed me in two ways...the dose was toxic (and the doctor wouldn't believe that the lithium was causing me to feel dreamlike and unreal AND the feeling of being in a dream was intolerable so I wanted to just die and stop feeling so bad). This was all due to a psychiatrist's stubborn refusal to believe that the Lithium was causing the problem and he kept upping the dose. It is a rather long and frightening story. I took a whole bottle of Valium to try to kill myself over this incident.

There is A LOT of this doctor in many psychiatrists. And they scare the bejeezus out of me.
 

Hound dog

Nana's are Beautiful
MWM

Hon, you're not the least bit off topic. Because that is also a huge part of the problem. And in my opinion part of the "environmental" aspect.
 

AnnieO

Shooting from the Hip
But somehow with medications, there is a tendency to become medications-resistant... the body in dealing with the delivery mechanism, eventually finds a way to "not accept" the medication. Some people have this as a major problem... I have a family member who cannot be on any one pain medication for more than 6 months, because after that it quickly loses effectiveness. Has to be off of that one for at least 5 years before it works again. Some kids have to switch which stimulant they are on, because they have become medications-resistant to the first one. Again... this only affects some people, not everybody.
This works with me and certain pain medications - Lortabs now have zero effect on me, thanks to dental work, except to make me puke, same as Vicodin (which actually makes me sleepy AND puke which is a BAD combination). Dentist has to use a LOT of novocaine on me now. And I was on a very low dose of Lexapro - worked for about 10 months and then - it was like I wasn't taking anything. doctor increased the dose (very slightly) and that worked for me... For another 2 months... Then another slight increase made no difference.

I am actually appalled at how quickly some psychiatrists or tdocs (who aren't even supposed to diagnose) drum up a disorder. "I saw him one hour and didn't test at all and he has ODD and ADHD." Um, really? Then, of course, out comes the prescription pad and an iffy diagnosis gets medicated with iffy medications.
There are also those docs who will Rx whatever the patient/parent wants, which is pretty frightening, too. Jett on 18mg Concerta = BRAT. So it was increased to 27mg. Mini-monster. So what did the doctor do (at bio's request)? 54mg. I'm surprised the kid could stand HIMSELF. We found a new doctor and weaned him back off. He has been stimulant-free (so far as we know) for 3.5 years and doing better than he was ON the stims. And - Onyxx on 1mg Risperidone was great. But Seroquel, Zoloft, Wellbutrin, Trazodone, Benadryl - EEEE. Still, psychiatrist says Seroquel is best for her. I don't think Onyxx is taking them, to be honest.
 

Hound dog

Nana's are Beautiful
Good point IC, except pain medications and psychiatric medications work under different principals and in different ways. Although I'm not a biochemist by a long shot. I somehow managed to pass biochemistry for nursing with an A, but that's not saying much either as I still believe that was a bonafide miracle. lol


MWM, I hear you! I quit 2 docs simply because all they did was write scripts. Seriously, that's ALL they did. Not a question, nothing. They relied on a therapist to diagnosis (not my kid!) and then just wrote whatever script the parent wanted to curb whatever behavior they wanted to see gone.

It took Nichole an extremely long time to warm up to her last psychiatrist simply because she took the entire hour to talk to Nichole and I both, and well.......she wasn't stupid, Nichole didn't get away with squat. lol The doctor wasn't perfect, but I really hope Nichole is able to find her because she's practicing in that general area.

Just makes you wonder. I bet at one time diabetes was thought to be a behavior problem, since the symptoms of blood sugar issues triggers odd behavior. I know at one time asthma was believed to be a behavioral/mental disorder, as was epilepsy. I could probably make a long list if I did a bit of research. But these things were only believed to be that way until they developed tests that could prove it was something else going on. Know what I mean??

And yeah, I know who funds research and why. Due to that, I don't see any real research being done on mental illnesses anytime even in the distant future.
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
Good point IC, except pain medications and psychiatric medications work under different principals and in different ways.
But... stims work the same way... (first-hand experience with those).
Not sure that's the same mechanism as APs and ADs... THOSE, I don't know so much about at the detail level.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Step, good point. Some doctors will give you Prozac if you ask for it. Very sad. I am very mistrustful of psychiatrists and todocs.
 
N

Nomad

Guest
I use to think it was closer to 50/50. And then we adopted a child and I made friends with several parents of adopted children.
All of us now have adult adopted children and ALL OF THESE ADULT CHILDREN ARE MENTALLY ILL.
I'm fairly sure that 100% of us now feel that genetics is significantly more influential than the environment.
I had a doctor for a short time (he was actually the doctor of a relative and I went to him briefly...between docs). He had a son (bio) and a daughter (adopted). He often spoke about his son and never about his daughter. I gently asked the nurse about it. She quietly said that the daughter was adopted (I didn't know this at the time) and was "not well" and had caused tremendous grief to the family for many years. They had spent tons of money and time trying to get her help. Their son was studying to be a physician.
In my family we often talk about how even the most basic of things...like food is different for our adopted difficult child.
She eats completely different foods even though she grew up in our house and ate the same foods her entire life.
Our son eats mostly like us (Mom and Dad), yet difficult child eats very differently. That is just a small example.
One of the weirdest things is the child of a friend of mine. The mom (my friend) was basically a housewife. Her husband has a PhD. Her mother (grandma) lived with them for much of the time. She was a nurse. They had a bio son and an adopted girl. They did everything in their power to help the girl. The son is a very successful businessperson. She (the daughter) is diagnosis'd with a mental illness, is an alcoholic and is often homeless. IN an effort to help her when she was in her teens...they tracked down her birthmother. Guess what? She is mentally ill, an alcoholic and often homeless. They were in SHOCK! It was as if she was NEVER in another home, with lots of nurturing, special care, special schools, family values, intellectual stimulation, etc. It was if none of that ever happened...their daughter followed the pattern of her birthmother exactly....
 

DammitJanet

Well-Known Member
Lisa....I take a boatload of medications and I have rarely if ever felt loopy except when the county mental health psychiatrist took me off my normal medications and put me on lithium and zyprexa. medications I had never been on and didnt need. On my normal medications that I have been on for years and years, I am fine and you cant even tell. Heck, you met me!

The only time I have had to have an increase in psychiatric medications is when I have had something happen such as taking increased doses of cortisone for my joints and we increased my lamictal as a preventative strike. We did try the Seroquel after I came home from the hospital because of the remaining delusions but after the increase in my cholesterol that was Difficult Child'd. Even my pain medications now that I have gone back to the morphine doesnt make me loopy. I think morphine is going to be my best friend. I do know that I will most likely have to increase it over time because just over the last year and a half. I have had to increase it 3 times but my doctor said I am now on what he said I should have started on, I was just too stubborn to agree to start on anything but the absolute lowest dose and it did nothing for me so I have suffered needlessly for a very long time.
 

Nancy

Well-Known Member
IN an effort to help her when she was in her teens...they tracked down her birthmother. Guess what? She is mentally ill, an alcoholic and often homeless. They were in SHOCK! It was as if she was NEVER in another home, with lots of nurturing, special care, special schools, family values, intellectual stimulation, etc. It was if none of that ever happened...their daughter followed the pattern of her birthmother exactly....

Nomad I have been saying this for years. We knew quite a bit about difficult child's birthmother from the beginning and what we did know we naively thought we could prevent from happening in difficult child with the right kind of environment and supports...wrong! Thena few years ago we made contact with birthmom throught the agency in an attempt to get some further input and possibily some help from her for difficult child. We were shocked at the similarities in the coarse that difficult child's life had taken with respect to her bm's. Almost everythign was identical, down to the same type of clothing she wore to the tatoos that decorated her body. Our family does not do tatoos, none of our large extended familyu has any tatoos, yet her bm has them all over her body and difficult child is well on her way to that. BM wears, and has always worn, tie died ****s, even now that she is in her 40's. Of all the fashion tends difficult child could have chosed it is tie died shirts that are her favorite. She is an old hippy-type for sure.

Now some of that you can say is just difficult child behavior, the drinking, pot, harder drugs, dropping out of school, loser boyfriends, treatment centers, arrests, halfway houses, abortions, homelessness, but all of it and the same exact pattern, too identical to be anything but genetics, especially when our other daughter has none of those behaviors and neither do anyone in our family. I would guess if we asked what foods she liked they would be the same as difficult child, which like you say is quite different than our tastes. I have always felt that with our birth daughter and difficult child, we were a good study in nature vs. nurture. And we did everything we could to bring them up the same way, involve them in the same activities and give them the same opportunities while growing up.

It's all too coincidental for me to be anything other than genetics.

Nancy
 

SuZir

Well-Known Member
Then again we do know, that people lives are seriously altered with external factors. Despite the genetics extreme abuse and neglect in early childhood tends to lead to same kind of problems for most of the children who have to suffer through it. Adult, mentally sound people will have very similar pattern of mental problems after they have been through some extreme circumstances. There is some genetic factor, but despite genetics most torture victims will develop severe mental problems. External factors do count.

I also have to say, that my two biological kids are not replica of myself or their biological fathers. I myself have done very dissimilar choices and taken the drastically different coarse than my biological parents. My mother was a eternal flower child, with no worries about anything, my father is an artist with a bohemian lifestyle. I'm neurotic upper middle class former SAH and soccer mom and now having very conventional and boring day job. My mother's choices and lifestyle was very dissimilar than her biological parents etc. Of course genetics do count, but they are not everything.

I also have to say, that many adopted kids I know have a lot of similarities to their adopted parents even though many are different race and almost all are foreign toddler or older children adoptions of institutionalized children. Some have had problems, some kids are special needs, but most are doing just fine. We don't really have many domestic adoptions outside of family because of different system (children in foster care can not be adopted without birth parents permission even if birth parents wouldn't had even wanted to see a kid in ten years and kid had been all that time in same foster family and we don't really have pro-life movement so if you don't want a kid and are pregnant, you just choose abortion) so all, who want to adopt have to adopt from foreign country, China, Thailand, South-Africa, Russia and Ethiopia being the most popular right now.
 

AnnieO

Shooting from the Hip
SuZir, you do have a point - but the external, "nurture" factors do have to be EXTREME in order to override nature.

It's my opinion, and not something I'd voice to my family normally, but I'm pretty sure bio was un-diagnosis'd bipolar, Onyxx of course is diagnosis'd such and bio-gma - maybe un-diagnosis'd too. She apparently (from what I've heard from the kids) has manic states. So... Given that, and the self-medication that I know about (alcohol, pain medications, stims etc.)... I'm not sure any intervention we do will help Onyxx. We're still trying. If the medications help Onyxx and she sticks with them, she has a chance to overcome it - herself.

That being said, Jett takes after husband, and from what I have been able to gather, bio's brother as well. But given the fact that Onyxx and Jett have the same genetic makeup - why so different? THAT, I believe is where nurture comes in...
 

SuZir

Well-Known Member
Those examples of mine were about severe environmental factors. But if they influence, so are likely the more subtle ones. And it is likely some people are much more sensitive for those factors than others. In many cases I think it is something like type 2 diabetes. There are some people, who have so strong predisposition to it, that it doesn't help, how healthy lifestyle they have, how well they eat, exercise and keep their weight in check, they still get it. Those are the few, I know at least one person like that. Then there are much more people who simply don't have the genes for that. They don't get it even if they would do everything like they shouldn't. I know many more people like that. But there are many, many people (with diabetes I think the most of us), who are somewhere between. With right lifestyle choices we are able to not get diabetes 2, but if we have risky lifestyle we may get it. And the more risk factors we have, the more likely it is, that we will have it.

If I have understood right bipolar is strongly hereditary and is of course a serious illness that can mess person's life. And for some medications really help, but for some they don't or the side effects are too much. In that they the genes are your destiny, maybe together with whatever environmental factors may be that may either cause you to have that illness you have the genetic predisposition or may help you to avoid it. Same goes to many physical illnesses too (and I kind of think that some day they will really find out the neuro-chemical factors that make a person bipolar or schizophrenic and those illnesses will turn out not to be much different from other chemical imbalances like diabetes or many others.)

I think lately one of the big area of interest with many illnesses has been viruses and how they may influence to onsets of different illnesses. I remember reading something about virus infection of the mother while pregnant and it's connection to for example schizophrenia. Also right now in northern Europe there is a epidemic of narcolepsy (with serious behavioural symptoms) caused by swine-flu vaccine and they don't really know, if it was only the vaccine or was there a genetic factor in it, because it seems the outbreak has been mainly in Scandinavia and same brand was used also in some other countries that have not have increase in narcolepsy. And if I remember correctly, the outbreaks of narcolepsy in children have gone up to ten times from normal in those Scandinavian countries.

These are not simple matters and we still know very little about how human body really works and which causes what or not.
 
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