Big daddy of a meltdown

[buddy]

I agree about the temperament ideas. Dr Berry Brazelton has discussed this most of his career and he was old when I was in my twenties.

I think any behavior, trait, or issue crosses the line in the sand into "disorder" territory when it really interferes with a part or all of life in such a way that there needs to be significant support to the person or they may not be able to develop future skills, live a healthy life or to reach their potential.

Sometimes that's a hard prediction to make, so we just do our best and cover the bases.

 

[SuZir]

Suzir, I'm going to agree to disagree with you. Violence is not normal and in my opinion does almost always mean there is something wrong in my opinion Even a person with a foul temperament does not usually get violent and I do agree that we are all born a certain way. At any rate, regardless of whether we see it as a disorder nor not, a child who gets violent either has to change how he deals with anger, frustration and disappointment or he will end up in some sort of trouble. I have often read (and this is at the descretion of the person who wrote it) that impulsivity and violence in a child means the child is at greater risk to have problems as an adult.

I talked violent tendencies before socialization. It is perfectly normal for the 16 months old to bite when they are frustrated before they are trained differently. Not all babies or toddlers bite, hit or push others, but most do it time to time. That is perfectly normal and adults have to teach them differently.

You are also right that different temperament types predict different adult problems. Feisty kids are more prone to criminal behaviour in adulthood. Cautious are more prone to mental illness. Very flexible are more prone to become lazy. But that itself doesn't mean, that there would be something wrong with having a certain temperament or that most people with certain temperament would end up to trouble. For example I know many easy-going and flexible people who are not lazya**ed, non-achieving punks, but productive normal citizens

 

[BusynMember]

Suz, again, agree to disagree on all fronts here...hehe I don't believe most kids bite and don't think cautious kids are more apt to get mentally ill. They are usually the more logical kids who can see the consequences of risky behavior. However, extreme fearfulness is another realm altogether.

At any rate, I think we have cultural differences here and will end my part of the thread here as I respect and like you and we can go back and forth forever on this. This is about J., after all, and he does exhibit some high risk behaviors although I think he also has tremendous strengths too.

 

[Malika]

What about my neuro-psychologist?

 

[BusynMember]

I would go. Any help is good

 

[Malika]

At any rate, regardless of whether we see it as a disorder nor not, a child who gets violent either has to change how he deals with anger, frustration and disappointment or he will end up in some sort of trouble. .

Yes, this is a very valid point. I am not so worried about classifying J's angry outbursts (not sure how violent they are/he is; I see him having violent urges but pretty well always controlling them) as in putting things in place to help him avoid having to become an angry, hostile teenager who is in trouble with the law and with himself. This, for me, is the point of an alternative education - that it is, in the words of the Steiner philosophy, about educating heart, hands and head. Not just head.

 

[SuZir]

Malika, that he shows self-control against violent urges is great and something you need to work on further. Because if J's outbursts are partly due his temperament (and I do think he is more feisty than easy going by temperament) he will likely continue to feel big rest of his life. It may well be that he will never turn to be a mild, mellow and easy going person - and that is okay. But because of that he will have to learn more self control over his show of feelings, learn ways to express himself without causing too much ruckus. But some ruckus should also be allowed and even appreciated. It's not wrong to feel big.

You said he started to repeat angry, negative sentence. That of course can be putting a aggressive feeling into words (which of course is better than acting it), but as I told about my recent meltdown, for me it works in building up the fury. Maybe if he does that again, you would try to cut that build up some way. Maybe starting to repeat some total nonsesial thing every time he repeats the angry sentence. Is J willing to talk about his meltdown now that it is over? How it felt, why he thinks he did this or that during it etc. did it feel good or bad? If he doesn't like having a meltdown, maybe coming up with some simple strategies he could soothe himself or you could help to calm him? he is of course very young, but maybe he would be able to try something simple to distract himself. Do ask from him, what he thinks would help, when he is feeling disregulated.

EDIT: And Malika, if you end up going Steiner route for J, do prepare to few big meltdowns over eurythmy in future There may be a Steiner kid somewhere, who doesn't harbour deep, dark hatred towards eurythmy classes out there, but every Steiner kid I have ever known have had some intense and violent feelings on that topic. Then again, everyone of them have lived through it and while they may be too scarred to do anything that reminds walking around and flapping their hands while listening music, I'm not sure if that is ruining their lives that much

 

[DDD]

I think we are discussing semantics. What you are seeking is a neuor/psychological evaluation which can take from six to ten hours and most often is administered to the child in segments under the supervision of a number of specialists often sharing the same suites or facilities. Each of the experts explores different aspects of a childs life and behavioral responses. Following the testing the "team" has a conference and discussing the results of their aspect and under the acting Director puts in writing what their observations and recommendations are. Where I live the testing (done in a larger City) is spread over a two day period so it does not exhaust the child. Whatever they call it J needs it and you need it in order to best understand him and set his path for the future. DDD

 

[Malika]

Yes, he will physically start punching the air toward me in anger and then pull his hand back, obviously at the cost of some considerable effort, for example. He is a very physical child indeed, always wanting to grapple, touch, play-fight, etc, but rarely in anger - unlike when he was smaller.

We have talked about it, though he is reluctant and keeps saying things like "I don't want to talk about it!" so I have to press. He is clearly embarrassed at having been so out of control. He said simply that he was angry because he wanted a toy and I am sometimes a naughty mummy; he talked about a time recently when I gave him a slap (mea culpa) because he would not listen to me and kept on playing with something sharp and potentially dangerous...

He is obviously what you call a feisty child and very obviously not an easy one He hardly ever goes with the flow - if I suggest doing something, anything, he will almost always whine and complain about it at first, even if he then ends up enjoying it. Obviously I am aware this is also to do with transitions and with anxiety. He will ask for things and then keep on and on when I say no - which I find intensely irritating... Not having what he wants is enormously upsetting to him and, despite the lack of biological link, funnily enough I was like that too as a child. I found it intensely emotionally upsetting that people would not listen to my desires and take them seriously...

Yet, curiously, when all is right in his world, he is the most delightful, affectionate and intensely alive and joyous child you could possibly imagine. Jekyll and Hyde, angel and demon.

 

[buddy]

In your situation, I think you are spot on. A good match for kids with learning styles and personalities like j will probably be a huge benefit.

We know he has a great heart. He is quite"smart" in many ways....and thank heaven has many interests that you can capitalize upon.

Hugs, give your brain a rest, lol.

 

[Malika]

I think we are discussing semantics. What you are seeking is a neuor/psychological evaluation which can take from six to ten hours and most often is administered to the child in segments under the supervision of a number of specialists often sharing the same suites or facilities. Each of the experts explores different aspects of a childs life and behavioral responses. Following the testing the "team" has a conference and discussing the results of their aspect and under the acting Director puts in writing what their observations and recommendations are. Where I live the testing (done in a larger City) is spread over a two day period so it does not exhaust the child. Whatever they call it J needs it and you need it in order to best understand him and set his path for the future. DDD

Now I am confused. How is it semantics? What you call in the States a neuro-psychological evaluation and what (according to my neuro-psychologist) is called one here in France seem to be very different things. What you are describing seems not to be available here. So it is no good hoping that it is going to appear on the horizon or help me set a path for the future... I guess it's all just a very different context for the treatment of these things.

 

[buddy]

I think you answered your own question. The neuropsychology evaluation means something different here. Ours always were done by one neuropsychologist but it was multiple tests including many for me to fill out. They took a whole day or like ddd, we would go twice because we lived close.

 

[SuZir]

Around here neuropsychologist also does only a small part of full evaluation. My difficult child has been evaluated twice. First time at 5 and second time when he was 12 or turning 13. Both there done in children hospital in neurological department. First one was over two weeks, three or four days a week from 8 a.m. to 3 or 4 p.m.and one night (for sleep study and few other tests.) Second one was shorter, because he was older and able to stand more testing at once, but still several days and one night. He was evaluated and tested at least by neurologist, psychiatrist, neurological and psychiatric nurses, speech-language pathologist, occupational therapist, Special Education. teacher, physiotherapist, psychologist and neuropsychologist, could had been few others too, it was some time ago already. (Got really thick pile of paper that told that difficult child was slightly different but not enough for this or that diagnosis out of all that)

Take the most comprehensive evaluation you have available for J. Other than neuropsychologist I would get at least Occupational Therapist (OT)'s evaluation. That may not give you any diagnosis, but it may give you some really good tips how to help him.

 

[Malika]

Thanks both. I guess I have to work on the assumption that a little is better than nothing, even if it is not a lot...

I ask myself... what has actually helped J so far in his life, concretely? I think being with other kids, being "socialised", as they say. Perhaps tennis, gym, riding in some way I can't really define (concentration a bit?) The one to one private tuition helps him.

I realise... that we have got this far without any professional help and because of that I guess I don't really expect any now or see things in those terms. Even though it may well be helpful, obviously.

The best thing about J, while we are on the subject, is his sense of humour. He's got this absolutely infectious laugh and this love of playing imaginary games (role plays) that set him/us off into paroxysms of giggles. Favourite at the moment is where we pretend to be a wicked witch inveigling a child into her house with all sorts of outlandish and flowery endearments (my little chickadee, my little honey blossom, my perfumed cupcake - each new expression sending him off into a gale of delighted giggles) only to do a volte face once inside the house and become a roaring demon who eats the little boy... I think I use humour more than anything else to move him on/out of negative states.

 

[Ktllc]

Thanks both. I guess I have to work on the assumption that a little is better than nothing, even if it is not a lot...

The smallest things have done the biggest difference for V. I am always surprised by it. And it might very well be true for J. Sometimes, the smallest advice, insight helps me handle V in such a different way. But the advice almost always came from a professional who knows kids like V or a parent raising a child like V (for us: autism spectrum).
You have a different mix: adhd, adopted that you know for sure. I would venture to say sensory seeker as well. Try to connect with good professionals who know this kind of dynamic.
When you'll meet a professional who truly understand J, you'll know. It will be so obvious. But make no mistake, it is not easy to find this special person, even in the US! I can be in the form of an Occupational Therapist (OT), a teacher, a counselor, an adhd specialist, a sport coach,....
You mentioned that his private tutor had a very possitive influence. Whta does he/she do differently? Or is it just the one on one but the teachng methods is the same as the school?

 

[DDD]

What I meant was that the expert in France said they didn't have neuropsychologists. Whatever their "team" approach is that administers intensive evaulation is the goal. If they are all psychologists..so be it. If they are all neurologists..so be it.
So many of us have gained so much from the combined input of experts that I have been eager for you to benefit also. The parental input (usually done in advance in writing around here) obviously plays a role as does the input from the school, the regular pediatrician etc. All those separate and important segments supplement the test results of the various professionals which often leads to appropriate interventions and understanding. DDD

 

[TerryJ2]

Malika, I'm coming into this late, but wanted to say that you've got a great discussion going here and some great ideas. I disagree with-the definition of neuropsychologist that you rec'd, but on your end, it is what it is. Just work with what you've got.
{{hugs}}

 

[whatamess]

I think he doing better because you are better prepared to handle issues in ways that help him. He's getting 'worse' is really just him growing older and increasing his verbal repertoire. You will see new words and new (and therefore possibly upsetting) actions not because he's 'worse', but because he's growing up. Please give yourself and J some credit that there will come a point in time in which your helpfulness and his maturity will merge and he will react in better ways or learn not to react at all. Please expect him to surprise you, but don't catastrophise it.

 

[Malika]

Well, at the risk of sounding repetitive, three cheers (and thanks) to Buddy again! Because of my writing to the neuro-psychiatric, quoting some of Buddy's email (just saying it was an American speech therapist friend), she now writes back telling me she has in fact a French copy of the Vineland adaptive behaviour test that she can give, even though it is usually for autism, and also a test for behaviour problems arising from executive functioning difficulties... already this is looking much more promising!

Ktllc, I think the tutor is helping partly because it is one to one but also because she is very bright, warm, encouraging and tolerant, and also has a long experience in teaching young children with reading difficulties.

 

[InsaneCdn]

Way To Go, Warrior Mom!

Yes, we often need to know more than the specialists... and then push them to do their jobs.