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Family of Origin
Boundaries...Please read Copa and Cedar...please answer. Thanks.
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<blockquote data-quote="Scent of Cedar *" data-source="post: 667276" data-attributes="member: 17461"><p>If you were benefiting in some way through setting a limit on what you will or will not discuss, that would be manipulation. When one person insists on speaking her piece but refuses to hear the other, that is a dysfunctional thing. I believe you set appropriate boundaries. In a way, it seems that your sister was telling you she wants what she wants from you and will find a name that isn't very nice to call you if you don't behave as she expects. That the name she calls you is couched in scientific terms doesn't change the fact that she called you a name. Just think how harmful it was to me to hear that word "manipulator" from that first therapist. If we are trying to be responsible to the integrity of a relationship, being told we are manipulative sends us into questioning ourselves. We tumble into shame base. We believe there must be a reason for the accusation or the person would not have said what they said.</p><p></p><p>I am sorry your sister did this to you, Serenity.</p><p></p><p>We should not call one another names in accusatory ways. </p><p></p><p>That is hurtful.</p><p></p><p>What I see here is that the sister accuses you of things she knows you will feel badly about to browbeat you into submission, and she uses your sense of integrity regarding your own behaviors to do it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Do you believe you established the boundary around the sister's abusive relationship to punish the sister Serenity, or to protect the relationship to the sister? In your description of your reasons for setting the boundary, I hear that you decided to erect the boundary to protect the relationship to your sister.</p><p></p><p>No contact...for me, in my Family of Origin, no contact is done to punish. It is an intentional act. Allies are recruited to be certain the ostracized member (me) understands they have been targeted and evicted and are now fair game for all kinds of nastiness from their own family. Whoever the ringleader is, the message sent is that our own family doesn't love us enough to put up with us.</p><p></p><p>No contact is a form of shunning.</p><p></p><p>Shunning a family member leaves them vulnerable and broken and sad.</p><p></p><p>No contact is a deadly sharp weapon; deadly.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No. I believe you were making an honest effort to establish respect in relationship.</p><p></p><p>It isn't like your sister said one wrong word and you went no contact, recruited allies, and tried to turn the family against her.</p><p></p><p>You did not do that, Serenity.</p><p></p><p>Your sister did do that.</p><p></p><p>I feel badly for you that sister does these kinds of hurtful things. To me, the sister is running hard with an agenda she intends to see through, however you respond. To me, it seems that sister becomes enraged and doubles her attacks as you become healthier.</p><p></p><p>We do not control our sisters. We can behave in the best ways we know to do, and let go of outcome.</p><p></p><p>Does your sister ever treat you pleasantly when it has nothing to do with bashing a third party? I mean did a conversation with sister ever have a feeling of relaxation and pleasure, and a sense of time well spent?</p><p></p><p>A time when the whole conversation was not about her?</p><p></p><p>For us to heal, I think we need to pin this stuff down. I wished so much for my sister that I excused really bad things that she did without batting an eye. I kept believing she meant well...but she didn't. We are both in our sixties, now. She has as much responsibility to our relationship as I do. My sister abuses, too. I couldn't see it either, because I thought she loved me.</p><p></p><p>It seems she does not.</p><p></p><p>So, like you do too Serenity, I need to pin down what the true nature of my relationship to my sister was. Otherwise, I will be so sad that she is gone from my life that I will step right back into condoning my sister's "Well I know it's wrong but I can't help it."</p><p></p><p>She knows.</p><p></p><p>So does your sister, Serenity.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>As I heal here Serenity, I realize that my sister used "I love you" to manipulate me. If she loved me, then she could not be doing what looked and felt abusive on purpose. </p><p></p><p>Abuse is what needs to be stopped. The sisters can choose to interact or not, once we decide not to allow them to abuse us.</p><p></p><p>They invariably choose no contact, the last hurtful thing they can do. They could as easily have chosen to talk honestly with us about what they've done.</p><p></p><p>But they didn't.</p><p></p><p>For us, the rules seem to be: Protect me, support me, shut up.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>My sister said that, as she walks with the Lord, He will have to fix our relationship because, since the Lord seems not to have fixed me yet (even after she prayed that ring of fire around me), she is done.</p><p></p><p>Then she called whenever she felt like it.</p><p></p><p>Hello.</p><p></p><p>The difference now is that I love her too much to love her, this way.</p><p></p><p>Loving someone does not mean they get to hate you in private and subvert you in public. There is no trust without respect; there is no love without trust. I trust my sister to do the crummiest things and pay for it with: "But I love you."</p><p></p><p>Our families are dysfunctional. Remember that article you posted about rigid role requirements in dysfunctional families, Serenity? That is what seems to be happening with our sisters. So, if they love the rigid roles from our scary childhoods more than they want us in their lives...we don't have control over that.</p><p></p><p>We have to let go. </p><p></p><p>We cannot enable. We cannot betray ourselves anymore for the sake of relationships that are abusive, or we will not be able to heal.</p><p></p><p>What would happen if you called your sister, Serenity?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That is the topic, Serenity.</p><p></p><p>Your sister was very wrong to do that to you. You weren't robbing her house, you were trying to get her to talk about your relationship. The way I see it, you behaved responsibly. Your sister behaved the way she always does, trying to shame you and hurt you and make you feel badly about yourself.</p><p></p><p> I could cry for your sake, when I think about what your sister has done to you.</p><p></p><p>Even the way she did what she did, here on the site recently, was so nasty and hurtful and threatening and wrong. If your sister were to approach you privately, say through Facebook, in a loving, supportive way, if she were to apologize and to tell you she misses you and couldn't you please try, slowly at first, to come back into one another's lives, you would give her that chance Serenity. I know that you would. </p><p></p><p>But you have to see what your sister chooses, instead.</p><p></p><p>You have to see that, Serenity.</p><p></p><p>She is still doing everything in her power to shame you publicly. Daphne posted something about reporting the posts. What is that, if not abuse, if not a threat?</p><p></p><p>It's like that Maya Angelou saying: "Believe them the first time they tell you who they are."</p><p></p><p>I think we can grieve that our sisters are not the sisters we wish we had. But when we excuse and excuse their bad behaviors, they cannot grow into better people, and neither can we.</p><p></p><p>I'm sorry Serenity, that we don't have the sisters we are so ready and able to love. But we don't have that in our lives.</p><p></p><p>We just don't.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes.</p><p></p><p>When we know that the person is locked into power-over mentality, we need to be wise, and we need to be wary. People who love us don't behave as our sisters behave.</p><p></p><p>This is true.</p><p></p><p>Cedar</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Scent of Cedar *, post: 667276, member: 17461"] If you were benefiting in some way through setting a limit on what you will or will not discuss, that would be manipulation. When one person insists on speaking her piece but refuses to hear the other, that is a dysfunctional thing. I believe you set appropriate boundaries. In a way, it seems that your sister was telling you she wants what she wants from you and will find a name that isn't very nice to call you if you don't behave as she expects. That the name she calls you is couched in scientific terms doesn't change the fact that she called you a name. Just think how harmful it was to me to hear that word "manipulator" from that first therapist. If we are trying to be responsible to the integrity of a relationship, being told we are manipulative sends us into questioning ourselves. We tumble into shame base. We believe there must be a reason for the accusation or the person would not have said what they said. I am sorry your sister did this to you, Serenity. We should not call one another names in accusatory ways. That is hurtful. What I see here is that the sister accuses you of things she knows you will feel badly about to browbeat you into submission, and she uses your sense of integrity regarding your own behaviors to do it. Do you believe you established the boundary around the sister's abusive relationship to punish the sister Serenity, or to protect the relationship to the sister? In your description of your reasons for setting the boundary, I hear that you decided to erect the boundary to protect the relationship to your sister. No contact...for me, in my Family of Origin, no contact is done to punish. It is an intentional act. Allies are recruited to be certain the ostracized member (me) understands they have been targeted and evicted and are now fair game for all kinds of nastiness from their own family. Whoever the ringleader is, the message sent is that our own family doesn't love us enough to put up with us. No contact is a form of shunning. Shunning a family member leaves them vulnerable and broken and sad. No contact is a deadly sharp weapon; deadly. No. I believe you were making an honest effort to establish respect in relationship. It isn't like your sister said one wrong word and you went no contact, recruited allies, and tried to turn the family against her. You did not do that, Serenity. Your sister did do that. I feel badly for you that sister does these kinds of hurtful things. To me, the sister is running hard with an agenda she intends to see through, however you respond. To me, it seems that sister becomes enraged and doubles her attacks as you become healthier. We do not control our sisters. We can behave in the best ways we know to do, and let go of outcome. Does your sister ever treat you pleasantly when it has nothing to do with bashing a third party? I mean did a conversation with sister ever have a feeling of relaxation and pleasure, and a sense of time well spent? A time when the whole conversation was not about her? For us to heal, I think we need to pin this stuff down. I wished so much for my sister that I excused really bad things that she did without batting an eye. I kept believing she meant well...but she didn't. We are both in our sixties, now. She has as much responsibility to our relationship as I do. My sister abuses, too. I couldn't see it either, because I thought she loved me. It seems she does not. So, like you do too Serenity, I need to pin down what the true nature of my relationship to my sister was. Otherwise, I will be so sad that she is gone from my life that I will step right back into condoning my sister's "Well I know it's wrong but I can't help it." She knows. So does your sister, Serenity. As I heal here Serenity, I realize that my sister used "I love you" to manipulate me. If she loved me, then she could not be doing what looked and felt abusive on purpose. Abuse is what needs to be stopped. The sisters can choose to interact or not, once we decide not to allow them to abuse us. They invariably choose no contact, the last hurtful thing they can do. They could as easily have chosen to talk honestly with us about what they've done. But they didn't. For us, the rules seem to be: Protect me, support me, shut up. My sister said that, as she walks with the Lord, He will have to fix our relationship because, since the Lord seems not to have fixed me yet (even after she prayed that ring of fire around me), she is done. Then she called whenever she felt like it. Hello. The difference now is that I love her too much to love her, this way. Loving someone does not mean they get to hate you in private and subvert you in public. There is no trust without respect; there is no love without trust. I trust my sister to do the crummiest things and pay for it with: "But I love you." Our families are dysfunctional. Remember that article you posted about rigid role requirements in dysfunctional families, Serenity? That is what seems to be happening with our sisters. So, if they love the rigid roles from our scary childhoods more than they want us in their lives...we don't have control over that. We have to let go. We cannot enable. We cannot betray ourselves anymore for the sake of relationships that are abusive, or we will not be able to heal. What would happen if you called your sister, Serenity? That is the topic, Serenity. Your sister was very wrong to do that to you. You weren't robbing her house, you were trying to get her to talk about your relationship. The way I see it, you behaved responsibly. Your sister behaved the way she always does, trying to shame you and hurt you and make you feel badly about yourself. I could cry for your sake, when I think about what your sister has done to you. Even the way she did what she did, here on the site recently, was so nasty and hurtful and threatening and wrong. If your sister were to approach you privately, say through Facebook, in a loving, supportive way, if she were to apologize and to tell you she misses you and couldn't you please try, slowly at first, to come back into one another's lives, you would give her that chance Serenity. I know that you would. But you have to see what your sister chooses, instead. You have to see that, Serenity. She is still doing everything in her power to shame you publicly. Daphne posted something about reporting the posts. What is that, if not abuse, if not a threat? It's like that Maya Angelou saying: "Believe them the first time they tell you who they are." I think we can grieve that our sisters are not the sisters we wish we had. But when we excuse and excuse their bad behaviors, they cannot grow into better people, and neither can we. I'm sorry Serenity, that we don't have the sisters we are so ready and able to love. But we don't have that in our lives. We just don't. Yes. When we know that the person is locked into power-over mentality, we need to be wise, and we need to be wary. People who love us don't behave as our sisters behave. This is true. Cedar [/QUOTE]
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