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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 42852" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>Hi Janet, welcome.</p><p></p><p>I have a few concerns - your daughter had a history of language delay. You now say she has learnt to be manipulative, which indicates she has gained the language skills she previously lacked.</p><p>My youngest is autistic, but very high functioning. He had significant language delay and is VERY manipulative. he has also been VERY oppositional - six years ago his teacher first suggested to me that he had ODD. This was coming from a teacher who has an autistic child herself, she thought she could handle my son. She was wrong!</p><p></p><p>We've 'turned round' difficult child 3's oppositionality. He never got a diagnosis of ODD, for several reasons -</p><p>1) It's not a diagnosis handed out easily in Australia; and</p><p>2) I wasn't considering it. I was plugged in to him and could see WHY other people considered him to be oppositional. But I freely admit, I'm plugged in to him at a VERY involved level, few parents would have the time or the energy to be doing this on a daily basis. It's simply because of a number of factors, not the least of it is my inability to do much else, physically, but wait on my son.</p><p></p><p>Since then and especially since finding this site, I can see that difficult child 3 probably would have fit the criteria for ODD. He had to have everything exactly as HE wanted it; if he wanted something he would nag and nag until I gave in; if he wants to do something before starting his schoolwork (such as clean out the bird cage) I know that if I don't let him, he will fret and worry about that blasted bird cage so much that he won't get any work done all day. I get angry with him; he gets frustrated and shouts back - in the end it saves me time and effort to say, "OK, clean out the cage, but your school day will be continued for the extra time it takes you to get started." He will accept this, and I've found that once the bird cage is cleaned, he happily gets down to work.</p><p>So he's not merely stalling, he really HAS been fretting about his birds (or whatever it is) and once he can put these distractions out of mind, he can work much better. In a classroom environment, this simply doesn't work.</p><p>"Please miss, I want to change the calendar today."</p><p>"No, difficult child 3, you did it every day last week, it's someone else's turn."</p><p>difficult child 3, who can see that NOBODY else loves that calendar as much as he does, resents little Johnny getting to change the calendar reluctantly, when difficult child 3 would do it willingly. He nags the teacher all day (and maybe all month) until it's his turn again. Most teachers would respond with, "If you're going to nag, you're NEVER getting another turn," which is the wrong response with these kids. He's nagging all the more because he's anxious that this beloved chore will never come his way again. taking it away justifies the anxiety and makes it worse.</p><p></p><p>Is t here a chance that your daughter's manipulativeness and oppositionality fits under a similar umbrella? Because there is a chance that she may have some form of Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD). There are other possibilities too, ODD rarely is found alone. The language delay alone can be enough to kick it off. Whether it's actually ODD, or something almost indistinguishable from it, kids can get this "ODD lookalike" condition as a result of discipline gone wrong. That doesn't mean you're a bad parent - far from it. But FOR THESE KIDS, the discipline method loved by generations of parents and working like a charm on easy child kids, is a disaster for these kids. You have to change tack and think outside the square.</p><p></p><p>That's why you were recommended to read "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene. I thought I was plugged into my child before - it's much more now. Sometimes people from the outside say he's spoiled, but I get compliance and good manners. Yes, he still has his problems and still obsesses about getting things done his way, but by choosing my battles according to well-thought-out rules, I get what I want when it really matters. If he wants to wear his brown shirt with black trousers, and we're going to be home all day anyway, I let him. If we have to go out, I tell him to change just for going out. He can choose to change the trousers, or the shirt. I give him the dress code - do not wear black and brown together.</p><p></p><p>difficult child 3 loves rules. He makes up his own, though. Rules given to him get tested in his head - are these real rules, or just what he is being told? Real rules are how people actually behave. "Don't hit back, you will be put on detention" is not a real rule, because when Fred hit Bill and then Bill hit Fred, nobody got into trouble. Of course, the teacher wasn't there, but there have been times when a teacher was present and nothing was done. But if difficult child 3 hits back, it means detention. To difficult child 3, this isn't a fair rule, he's being bullied. And he's right. But it also means, he will continue to hit back until he can understand the conditions which do NOT lead to detention for the other boys.</p><p></p><p>For a kid who didn't even understand he had a name, and who couldn't understand more than "who" and "what" when he started school, I now have a kid who is heading for a career as a lawyer. He has studied logic, rules and human behaviour and now it's all coming out as his public analysis. He's also studied humour and now is working on it. He has learnt that if he tells a joke he needs to smile, even a small quirky smile, or people will not realise it's a joke. This is something that took his father three decades to learn.</p><p></p><p>Your daughter may have something very different to Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD). I do believe she has more than ODD and depression, because so often I've seen this as an initial and only label, and then further testing shows up an underlying, more treatable condition. For example, a kid who has limited expressive language is going to get very frustrated at not being able to ask for what they want. They will throw a tantrum out of sheer frustration. Put with that a short fuse, poor impulse control and extreme anxiety, and you get a kid about as stable as sweaty gelignite.</p><p></p><p>To informally check the Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) possibility, do the online Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) questionnaire at <a href="http://www.childbrain.com." target="_blank">http://www.childbrain.com.</a> You can't diagnose Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) yourself this way but you CAN print the results (even if she scores as normal) and take it to the doctor, purely to get some thoughts on a different line.</p><p></p><p>To find out more about "the book" there are links online, including some really good discussion in Early Childhood. I wrote a review of the book for my family, because I couldn't take the time it would take for them to read the book; I needed compliance from them NOW. And from the teachers, who also got a copy of my review.</p><p></p><p>To communicate on this site - you can send/receive a PM (private message) through this site and I'm fairly sure you can include your email contact in your members page. I STRONGLY recommend you do NOT use your real name or usual email address. This is to protect you from being 'stalked' online by any people you need to whine about. Speaking from experience - I've been stalked online by local educators, trying to keep track of what I'm up to, find out what I'm saying and writing, in order to stay one jump ahead of me. If I said I was angry with the school or the district office over a particular issue and that I intended to take certain action, I would sometimes find that my words I'd written were being quoted in the staffroom. I've actually been told that teachers have been given copies of what I've written. I've been shown the copies. It's easy to track you by your real name. When you have a kid who is a significant difficult child and educators are finding you as much a handful as the kid, because you WILL NOT behave yourself and do what they tell you (such as let them drop his behaviour program, they don't want to spend the money), then you risk them tracking your real name to see what you're planning.</p><p></p><p>I know this sounds paranoid - I'm actually not paranoid, I KNOW people are out to get me! And I'm only partly kidding.</p><p></p><p>Right now, I don't worry too much about it. But there have been times when I was VERY grateful I could share freely on this site, and times when I could share nowhere else because at one point even a GP I'd consulted was gossiping about me, to a bloke who began stalking me in various ways (including via email, which is how I got the evidence against the GP). This bloke would also pump people for information about me, then I'd hear it back distorted as gossip. Not good. I learned to keep my mouth shut.</p><p>And on this site, you need to be able to speak freely. It's good therapy, and it's the way we help each other, by being frank with one another.</p><p>Many years ago I posted regularly on another site, using my real name. I got stalked badly online (not my usual stalker) and it upset me a great deal when it became clear that this stalker knew too much about me personally, including where I lived and who I'd been speaking to. Then the stalker said something too much, I recognised a pet phrase and realised who it was - and stopped worrying, because it was a sad, pathetic, vindictive woman who liked to torment people for her own amusement. I was one of many victims, she hadn't picked on me especially, she just was having fun. I simply shut off all possible information lines to her, only ever talked about the weather, that sort of thing. But I learnt my lesson, I will never leave myself so badly exposed again.</p><p></p><p>I know anyone here could track me down easily, but going back that way is not the problem. It's being tracked by people who already know me personally, that I'm guarding against. And advising you to do the same, even if you think you will never need it. I know I've occasionally put in a link that names my village - I trust you guys. But as for telling other people I know, about this site - I'm paranoid, thanks to experience.</p><p></p><p>We WILL get back to you; generally on a thread like this, but anyone with more specific information, perhaps mentioning the name of a doctor, a town or some other person, will use a PM to keep the information (yours and theirs) as confidential as possible.</p><p></p><p>And once again, welcome. And if you can get your husband to lurk here too, like mine does, or post with you - it can help a lot.</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 42852, member: 1991"] Hi Janet, welcome. I have a few concerns - your daughter had a history of language delay. You now say she has learnt to be manipulative, which indicates she has gained the language skills she previously lacked. My youngest is autistic, but very high functioning. He had significant language delay and is VERY manipulative. he has also been VERY oppositional - six years ago his teacher first suggested to me that he had ODD. This was coming from a teacher who has an autistic child herself, she thought she could handle my son. She was wrong! We've 'turned round' difficult child 3's oppositionality. He never got a diagnosis of ODD, for several reasons - 1) It's not a diagnosis handed out easily in Australia; and 2) I wasn't considering it. I was plugged in to him and could see WHY other people considered him to be oppositional. But I freely admit, I'm plugged in to him at a VERY involved level, few parents would have the time or the energy to be doing this on a daily basis. It's simply because of a number of factors, not the least of it is my inability to do much else, physically, but wait on my son. Since then and especially since finding this site, I can see that difficult child 3 probably would have fit the criteria for ODD. He had to have everything exactly as HE wanted it; if he wanted something he would nag and nag until I gave in; if he wants to do something before starting his schoolwork (such as clean out the bird cage) I know that if I don't let him, he will fret and worry about that blasted bird cage so much that he won't get any work done all day. I get angry with him; he gets frustrated and shouts back - in the end it saves me time and effort to say, "OK, clean out the cage, but your school day will be continued for the extra time it takes you to get started." He will accept this, and I've found that once the bird cage is cleaned, he happily gets down to work. So he's not merely stalling, he really HAS been fretting about his birds (or whatever it is) and once he can put these distractions out of mind, he can work much better. In a classroom environment, this simply doesn't work. "Please miss, I want to change the calendar today." "No, difficult child 3, you did it every day last week, it's someone else's turn." difficult child 3, who can see that NOBODY else loves that calendar as much as he does, resents little Johnny getting to change the calendar reluctantly, when difficult child 3 would do it willingly. He nags the teacher all day (and maybe all month) until it's his turn again. Most teachers would respond with, "If you're going to nag, you're NEVER getting another turn," which is the wrong response with these kids. He's nagging all the more because he's anxious that this beloved chore will never come his way again. taking it away justifies the anxiety and makes it worse. Is t here a chance that your daughter's manipulativeness and oppositionality fits under a similar umbrella? Because there is a chance that she may have some form of Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD). There are other possibilities too, ODD rarely is found alone. The language delay alone can be enough to kick it off. Whether it's actually ODD, or something almost indistinguishable from it, kids can get this "ODD lookalike" condition as a result of discipline gone wrong. That doesn't mean you're a bad parent - far from it. But FOR THESE KIDS, the discipline method loved by generations of parents and working like a charm on easy child kids, is a disaster for these kids. You have to change tack and think outside the square. That's why you were recommended to read "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene. I thought I was plugged into my child before - it's much more now. Sometimes people from the outside say he's spoiled, but I get compliance and good manners. Yes, he still has his problems and still obsesses about getting things done his way, but by choosing my battles according to well-thought-out rules, I get what I want when it really matters. If he wants to wear his brown shirt with black trousers, and we're going to be home all day anyway, I let him. If we have to go out, I tell him to change just for going out. He can choose to change the trousers, or the shirt. I give him the dress code - do not wear black and brown together. difficult child 3 loves rules. He makes up his own, though. Rules given to him get tested in his head - are these real rules, or just what he is being told? Real rules are how people actually behave. "Don't hit back, you will be put on detention" is not a real rule, because when Fred hit Bill and then Bill hit Fred, nobody got into trouble. Of course, the teacher wasn't there, but there have been times when a teacher was present and nothing was done. But if difficult child 3 hits back, it means detention. To difficult child 3, this isn't a fair rule, he's being bullied. And he's right. But it also means, he will continue to hit back until he can understand the conditions which do NOT lead to detention for the other boys. For a kid who didn't even understand he had a name, and who couldn't understand more than "who" and "what" when he started school, I now have a kid who is heading for a career as a lawyer. He has studied logic, rules and human behaviour and now it's all coming out as his public analysis. He's also studied humour and now is working on it. He has learnt that if he tells a joke he needs to smile, even a small quirky smile, or people will not realise it's a joke. This is something that took his father three decades to learn. Your daughter may have something very different to Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD). I do believe she has more than ODD and depression, because so often I've seen this as an initial and only label, and then further testing shows up an underlying, more treatable condition. For example, a kid who has limited expressive language is going to get very frustrated at not being able to ask for what they want. They will throw a tantrum out of sheer frustration. Put with that a short fuse, poor impulse control and extreme anxiety, and you get a kid about as stable as sweaty gelignite. To informally check the Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) possibility, do the online Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) questionnaire at [url="http://www.childbrain.com."]http://www.childbrain.com.[/url] You can't diagnose Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) yourself this way but you CAN print the results (even if she scores as normal) and take it to the doctor, purely to get some thoughts on a different line. To find out more about "the book" there are links online, including some really good discussion in Early Childhood. I wrote a review of the book for my family, because I couldn't take the time it would take for them to read the book; I needed compliance from them NOW. And from the teachers, who also got a copy of my review. To communicate on this site - you can send/receive a PM (private message) through this site and I'm fairly sure you can include your email contact in your members page. I STRONGLY recommend you do NOT use your real name or usual email address. This is to protect you from being 'stalked' online by any people you need to whine about. Speaking from experience - I've been stalked online by local educators, trying to keep track of what I'm up to, find out what I'm saying and writing, in order to stay one jump ahead of me. If I said I was angry with the school or the district office over a particular issue and that I intended to take certain action, I would sometimes find that my words I'd written were being quoted in the staffroom. I've actually been told that teachers have been given copies of what I've written. I've been shown the copies. It's easy to track you by your real name. When you have a kid who is a significant difficult child and educators are finding you as much a handful as the kid, because you WILL NOT behave yourself and do what they tell you (such as let them drop his behaviour program, they don't want to spend the money), then you risk them tracking your real name to see what you're planning. I know this sounds paranoid - I'm actually not paranoid, I KNOW people are out to get me! And I'm only partly kidding. Right now, I don't worry too much about it. But there have been times when I was VERY grateful I could share freely on this site, and times when I could share nowhere else because at one point even a GP I'd consulted was gossiping about me, to a bloke who began stalking me in various ways (including via email, which is how I got the evidence against the GP). This bloke would also pump people for information about me, then I'd hear it back distorted as gossip. Not good. I learned to keep my mouth shut. And on this site, you need to be able to speak freely. It's good therapy, and it's the way we help each other, by being frank with one another. Many years ago I posted regularly on another site, using my real name. I got stalked badly online (not my usual stalker) and it upset me a great deal when it became clear that this stalker knew too much about me personally, including where I lived and who I'd been speaking to. Then the stalker said something too much, I recognised a pet phrase and realised who it was - and stopped worrying, because it was a sad, pathetic, vindictive woman who liked to torment people for her own amusement. I was one of many victims, she hadn't picked on me especially, she just was having fun. I simply shut off all possible information lines to her, only ever talked about the weather, that sort of thing. But I learnt my lesson, I will never leave myself so badly exposed again. I know anyone here could track me down easily, but going back that way is not the problem. It's being tracked by people who already know me personally, that I'm guarding against. And advising you to do the same, even if you think you will never need it. I know I've occasionally put in a link that names my village - I trust you guys. But as for telling other people I know, about this site - I'm paranoid, thanks to experience. We WILL get back to you; generally on a thread like this, but anyone with more specific information, perhaps mentioning the name of a doctor, a town or some other person, will use a PM to keep the information (yours and theirs) as confidential as possible. And once again, welcome. And if you can get your husband to lurk here too, like mine does, or post with you - it can help a lot. Marg [/QUOTE]
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