Can anyone interpret test results? (Long and boring)

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by MidwestMom, Jun 25, 2011.

  1. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I got Jumper's report. the only part I don't get is the testing scores. Can anyone kindly help?

    VCI 87
    PRI 104
    WMI 94
    PSI 103
    FSIO 95
    Voc 9
    Sim 8
    Comp 6
    BD 9
    PicConcept 16
    MR 7
    DS 9
    LNS 9
    Coding 10
    SS 11

    Math Prblm Slv 87
    Numerical Ops 92
    Math Fl-Add 117
    Math Fl-Sub 96
    Math Fl-Mult 97

    Auditory Attn 12
    Response Test 10

    I'll skip the Conners...I get that

    Vis Scan
    #Seq 12
    Letter Seq 12
    #-lettr Seq 8
    Motor sensory processing disorder (SPD) 11
    Letter Fl 14
    Catgry Fl 13
    Cat Switch 11
    Accuracy 11
    Color 10
    Word 10
    Inhibit 10
    Inhbt/swtch 10
    Tower 6

    Brief Parent
    Inhibit 44
    Shift 38
    Em. Control 37
    Initiate 56
    Wrk Memory 66
    Plan/Orgnze 65 Org. Mtrls. 71
    Monitor 53
    BRI 38
    MI 66
    GEC 55

    Her primary diagnosis was just Anxiety-not otherwise specified.
    Thank you!
  2. pepperidge

    pepperidge New Member

    so the verbal comprehension is relatively low as is the working memory. Both could explain some of the problems. Also her full scale IQ based on the tests would seem to put in her only in average range. Is she having more trouble in school than a kid of that intelligence would have?

    Is she reading at grade level? I would ask to what extent verbal comprehension is linked perhaps to reading ability, how you would know she doesn't have some kind of reading disability.
    I am no expert in any of this!
  3. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    He said the working memory was normal. Honestly.

    Thanks for the heads up. I'll get on it :)
  4. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    Hi, this is "Out-on-a-limb" again...
    These are the ones I know anything about...

    VCI 87 - vocab stuff - this is low relative to the rest of her scores, in this sequence.
    PRI 104
    WMI 94
    PSI 103
    FSIO 95

    This set, scores are I believe from 1 to 19 with 10 being the "norm".
    Voc 9
    Sim 8
    Comp 6 ** comprehension - this is low
    BD 9
    PicConcept 16 ** visual processing - this is very high
    MR 7
    DS 9
    LNS 9
    Coding 10
    SS 11
    (are we surprised yet?)

    Math Prblm Slv 87 ** biggest problem in math, is word problems... hmmm.
    Numerical Ops 92
    Math Fl-Add 117
    Math Fl-Sub 96
    Math Fl-Mult 97

    Brief Parent - scores 65 and above are considered "significant"
    Inhibit 44 (this causes lots of the typical ADHD behaviors)
    Shift 38 (ditto)
    Em. Control 37 (ditto)
    Initiate 56 - elevated, but not clinically significant
    Wrk Memory 66 ** clinically significant
    Plan/Orgnze 65 ** clinically significant
    Org. Mtrls. 71 **clinically significant
    Monitor 53

    (don't remember what these 3 are...)
    BRI 38
    MI 66 clinically significant
    GEC 55

    So, we've got... a highly visual learner with comprehension issues, working memory and organizational challenges - and no behavior issues.
    NOT... ADHD, for example. I can see why the NS has a trouble coming up with a LABEL.

    But, These ARE significant findings. NS should be able to document the clinically significant findings, and the accommodations needed. This includes... alternate exam formats (including oral, scribed, multiple-choice/short-answer, etc.), alternative learning formats (NOT lectures!), etc.

    Given the significance of vocab scores, etc. - have you considered having her tested for auditory processing issues? May not be Central Auditory Processing Disorder (CAPD) per se, but something in that range? This wouldn't be a NS test - usually Speech Language Pathologist (SLP) or Speech Language Pathologist (SLP)+audiology

    Hope I haven't confused everything... sorry that some of the tests are not familiar, but I think you're getting a fairly accurate result.
  5. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Thank you very much, IC. You didn't confuse me at all. You made more sense than he Who would I go to for this auditory testing? What kind of professional?
  6. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    Auditory processing...

    You need an independent (i.e. not the school's staff) Speech-Language Pathologist. The Speech Language Pathologist (SLP) will want the test results (scores and report) - highlight what I showed you here. You are concerned that she may have some issues with...
    - auditory processing/comprehension
    - auditory filtering
    - auditory focus
    (these last two are sometimes called auditory discrimination)

    This person will either be able to do a diagnosis... OR this will be the gateway report, to another specialist (this is what we have here...) - but they can tell you the process.

    Hope this helps!

    by the way - those scores I didn't recognize? BRI = behaviour regulation (obviously, no problem there!), and MCI = MetaCognition - the ability to "put it all together"... clinically significant, and fits given the other scores.

    (No, I'm not a specialist - just a parent... BUT we got our latest report a few months back, so I still have the reports and all the "look it up" books all over my office!)
  7. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I can't thank you enough. He acted like nothing was wrong. I know at least some things are. Now I can get down to business. First stop: The Speech/Language Pathologist.
  8. seriously

    seriously New Member

    Didn't he provide a written narrative report that explains/interprets his findings? Something more than just the numbers?

    WISC IV -

    What did he say to explain the very high Picture Concept score (superior range)? And the slightly low Comprehension score (below average)? The Comprehension score is not actually really low - the WISC IV is harder than the WISC III and her overall average SS is 9 making a score of 6 within 3 points or 1 standard deviation.

    Did he discuss the PRI (perceptual reasoning index) score at all? This is the one that is based on 3 subtests (BD, picture Conc, MR) with a variance of greater than 5 pts. which normally might cause this index to be unreliable particularly since the range of subtest scores is 9 points?

    I don't mean to imply that this kind of scatter is "abnormal" in any way. Up to a 9 point subtest scatter, while not typical, is not necessarily significant. But she has an overall subtest scatter of 10 points (6 low to 16 high) and I would expect him to at least acknowledge this and offer an interpretation, particularly of the very high score.

    Picture Concepts represents the intersection of the visual and the verbal. The child is presented with 2 sets of pictures and has to chose which items go together from each set. For example, card one might show a ship and a coloring book. card two might show a bird and a crayon. Which go together? coloring book and crayon. They have to give a "language" answer (usually verbally) based on the accurate and quick analysis of visual information.

    This might be an important clue to her area of strength that would be helpful to know.


    I'm not very familiar with this one so my only comment is - what did he say (if anything) about the fact that there is a 2 standard deviation spread (30 points) in the standard scores?

    I would ask him more about how this test is conducted and what conclusions he would draw about her relative strengths and weaknesses in processing verbal vs. visual information in this context. Fluency (speed) is clearly not a problem with automatic information like addition. Automatic information/knowledge is information that we have repeated to the point that we don't have to "think" about it to know it. You look at 2 + 2 and you just know it equals 4. She seems to have no problem storing and retrieving that kind of information for basic math but she has trouble figuring out the steps or operations to use to solve a problem.

    It looks like she could benefit from some very explicit instruction in general problem solving strategies like you need when you face a word problem. It really boils down to pattern recognition of a sort. You have to learn to recognize common elements and what math operation to apply to those elements. If the problem involves 15.9 is to 378 as 10 is to ? then you can say that it is essentially a division (or inversely a multiplication) problem. Knowing that is the first step. Then you need to be able to figure out how to put the information into that format. This is classic "speeding train" word problem stuff. she might find that drawing herself a picture of the problem that lets her "see" the problem will help her solve it more quickly, even if it's just icons.

    This same skill is kind of assessed on the WISC IV with the Matrix Reasoning (MR) subtest where she had to identify the pattern she was seeking (for example, red/blue/green order of colors in stacked stars) and then identify that pattern from among several choices (stacked boxes with variations on that order - red/green/blue; blue/red/green; red/blue/green) while discarding visual information that wasn't important to the comparison, in this example the shapes. Color order: important; shape: not important. She had some trouble with that task too.

    Clearly the NEPSY results are "normal"

    DKEFS is pretty unremarkable in terms of scores that stick out except for the Tower test and the Fluency tests. Speed of processing doesn't seem to be a weak point.

    Tower test is a problem solving thing again. It would be interesting to see what he says happened when she tried this test. Some people think it is a very good measure of attention because you have to plan your moves out ahead to be really successful. People who are impulsive typically don't do well because they find it hard to do the planning involved. But there could be other explanations too. Motor planning problems are at the top of that list and you could ask him if he found anything else to suggest this was a problem for her.

    The BRIEF is entirely a parent-report scale. As such it has limited value and serves as a screening tool. My difficult child 2's scores on this were off the chart. Way higher than yours in nearly every category. That's not to say she doesn't have issues - just you have to be cautious in how you interpret the results and how important are those results. And it has a confidence interval of +/- 4 points to take into consideration too. That means that a score of 66 could actually be anywhere from 62 to 70.

    It's true that anything over a t-score of 65 is considered clinically significant. The Metacognition Index was the only significant index. since the other index's were pretty good I would say that definitely points to an area of weakness.

    Metacognition is the ability to think about the way you think. The really good thing about this - most people can and do learn to do this to some extent. But it can be explicitly taught if needed. And it looks like this is an area of weakness for her. Her biggest problem may be motivation and maturity to understand that she needs these skills to do well and that they really aren't that hard to learn or practice.
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2011
  9. seriously

    seriously New Member

    I suggest you go to Wright's Law and read over their article on understanding test results. It is an excellent resource and is written in plain language with good examples/illustrations.

    When speaking about what's "low" or "high" on the WISC IV for example, her overall index and FSIQ scores are all within the "average" range. The average range is 100 +/- 15 points. 15 points is the standard deviation. So most scores will fall within the range of 85 to 115 and are considered "average". Average is used in the mathematical sense here. If you took all the kids her age in the US and gave them all the same test, the vast majority will have scores within that range - it represents the statistical mean or average. so in comparison to all the other children her age she fits right in. She has about the same abilities as most of her peers and should be expected to perform about as well as her peers overall.

    None of her scores are outside of the average range and it is not statistically sound to say that a score of 94 is "low" in comparison to a score of 104 for example. It does not even really represent an area of relative weakness given the fact that overall her scores are in the average range. The only standout score is the picture concepts score and may represent a "hidden" area of strength.

    If her performance in any one academic skill or area is much poorer or better than her peers then it MAY represent an individual area of weakness or strength. Or she just might have been sick and out the month they taught fractions...or find her history class super interesting.
  10. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    Seriously - just HOW many degrees have you got behind your name? I'm guessing that your narrative(s) are a much more complete report than MWM got from the neuropsychologist!

    BRIEF is taken more seriously here - and they would never get just one (both parents if avail, plus a couple of teachers, for a minimum) - the "trend" is then worth more.

    There's just enough "edges" here, that it might be worth a review by an Educational Psychologist, or a Learning Disabilities specialist. It seems pretty obvious that this isn't a case of illness, disease, or (common) disorder. But, "something" is going on. Guess 1 was auditory processing - whether it is or not, its good to check it out and get a solid ruling either way. Anxiety alone doesn't account for her performance (in my opinion). SO... guess 2 is some form of learning disability, or at least "trending" in that direction.

    The "math problems" issue MAY be related to working memory. If its not an area of strength to start with, then it takes more working memory to handle the task... and if she's heavily math-challenged and even slightly working-memory challenged... she may not have sufficient working memory for the task. Things like Anxiety also use up working memory. (At least, this is how it was explained to us.) Would it help if she had a visual, visible problem-solving strategies chart available, so that she doesn't have to remember the strategies? These are the kinds of things that would come into play as "working memory" accommodations.

    Ditto for organizational issues - think "mental organization" not "messy room". It takes working memory to keep a structure in your head while you work through... an essay, or a math problem, or planning out your order-of-work in order to keep ahead of all the due dates coming. Challenging task + working memory issues + anxiety ... may = poorer performance than expected.

    Based on the Anxiety diagnosis, she "should" be able to get: untimed tests, and strategy reminder sheets, for a minimum.

    Just another idea...
  11. Marguerite

    Marguerite Active Member

    Just a quick response form me, I haven't read all the others. Sorry.

    But I can see splinter skills in the sub-scores. Not huge disparity, but enough to qualify. Some scores were as low as 6, others were as high as 14 or more. That indicates gaps.

    I think these results need to be analysed by someone other than school-based staff, preferably someone who knows what they are doing. School have a vested interest in trying to NOT find learning difficulties, or high IQ.

  12. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    He's not with the school.

    I'm going to show it to somebody else though.
  13. seriously

    seriously New Member

    Did he give you a narrative report?

    The problem with showing test results to someone else - not that it's a bad idea - is that they weren't there when she did the tests.

    Watching the person do the tests is one of the elements of the assessment that can lead to at least as many insights as the actual test results.

    If he didn't give you a narrative report with comments about her performance on specific parts or a description of subtle issues he saw that may not be apparent from the results then you should ask him for one.

    If you are waiting to get that - I would wait and not draw too many conclusions until you have had a chance to look at that and see what he actually says about her performance on the tests and any recommendations he has for remediating her weaknesses and enhancing her strengths.

    FWIW the additional assessment I might suggest (depending on what she's had previously and the quality of those assessments) would be the reading assessment to see if that can pinpoint weaknesses that can be remediated and perhaps a speech/language assessment for the same reason.

    Central Auditory Processing Disorder (CAPD) assessment should have been done by the neuropsychologist - if you're not sure about that, ask him if he ruled it out. Or it should be done by a specially trained and equipped audiologist. It can then be helped by speech therapy.

    If she hasn't had any explicit study skills training then that is what I personally would suggest you start trying to give her during her summer tutoring. One place to start and the Special Education teacher should be able to tell if your daughter needs help learning to make effective use of textbooks. For example, if the word is in BOLD print it's probably important to remember, headings and first sentences of paragraphs are important clues to understanding the information you're about to read, pre-reading or previewing vocab can help many students gain more understanding of the text, particularly in science.

    Teaching her to use graphic organizers and icons, given that she seems to be stronger with visual information, may be a very useful strategy for her too.

    She has probably already been exposed to a lot of this kind of stuff but either isn't using that knowledge effectively or didn't really "get" it when it was presented at school.
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2011
  14. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Yes. It pretty much said she is completely normal. his only diagnosis was the mild anxiety-not otherwise specified for problems with testing. He gave strengths and weaknesses, but put her in the average range in every area, a few very high and a few low average. He does not see her as an Learning Disability (LD) kid. In her school records, which he impressively read cover to cover (and could quote) the teachers often say she does not utilize the extra times that she can get help from the teachers and that she is not putting out her best effort, although she does all her work on time. Do I buy it?

    First I need to know if her test scores are really average and if anyone here sees anything I should look into. This is the third set of testing in a row that does not explain why she flunks many of her tests unless she has promps with her. Her other work is good (homework and she often does well on multiple choice quizes). The other two tests were with school districts (two different ones.) Her test results are why she lost her IEP. I know we have a lot of smart warrior moms here so I'm asking for inp
  15. seriously

    seriously New Member

    It's good that the Special Education teacher is going to work with her over the summer. Hopefully that will give everyone some insight.

    Have you asked Jumper what she thinks is happening when she's taking a test?

    Once school gets going again you might ask the Special Education teacher to go an observe her when she's in class and when she's taking a test. That might help show some behaviors that are problematic. Also going through her notebook and looking over her notes and records to see if she's doing a good job there. And finally test preparation skills can help.

    but if she's really, really anxious - all that can go out the window.

    In which case, cognitive therapy may be just as helpful.

    That's why it would be intersting to see what Jumper thinks. Does she think it would help her to be in a small group? Does she think it would help if she had more time? What does she think will help?
  16. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I've asked her. She just says, "I don't remember when I take tests." She also says she gets nervous before tests.
  17. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    MWM - your challenge lies in finding someone who is looking for "an explanation for what is happening" rather than "a diagnosis".

    You don't have a "killer-diagnosis" here. No one thing explains what is going on. But if you truly believe that kids do well "if they can" (rather than "if they want to"), then attitude is not the cause of the problem - she may have some "attitude" now, because of past experience - but there is a reason. And it sounds like you feel that way too.

    I don't know how you find these people. We landed ONE - on our last round, after 9 years of trying to find answers - and went from maybe 40% of an explanation to about 80%... still not good enough, but a huge step forward. The key? They have to look at the interplay between various marginal issues. Each one, stand-alone, "should not" be a problem. But taken together... they are.

    Either the anxiety is much more extreme than is being documented, OR... its working memory, etc. being compounded by anxiety. Or add a few other marginal things in there...

    But HOW to get someone on your side with that??? That's the $64 question I don't have an answer for.

    p.s. - on Central Auditory Processing Disorder (CAPD) - MOST who test for this, are looking for language difficulties; this might or might not be applicable... no issue with testing for that as well, but you can test perfectly on the language side, and STILL have auditory processing issues - there are separate, newer tests for auditory discrimination etc. Might not apply in this case - but just because "she gets tested for Central Auditory Processing Disorder (CAPD)" doesn't mean she's been tested for the rest of it.
  18. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    IC, could you be kind enough to look at t he results I forgot to post? They are in another thread.Nobody answered yet, but you seem to have very good knowledge.

    You are correct, by the way (and very helpful...hugs) :) I am not interested in a diagnosis. I just want to know how to make learning more pleasant and user friendly for my daughter. And many here, including you, have given me exceptional ideas.

    I am very lucky to have found all of you.