Thank you so much for your responses. I am trying to make appointments for new evaluations. The last ones we did were three years ago. Then we transfered him to a private school, did counseling for six to eight months. Things appeared to become brighter and we thought we were on the right track. I know he is getting frustrated from all the demands from others but on the other hand sometimes he just does things to irritate others which goes with the ODD.
Do ADD, ODD and other kids' diagnoses eventually change to schizophreniia?
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YOU WRITE:
My gfgbro has had many of those thoughts, esp about people in power like presidents, popes, etc... just trying to mess with you for $$. For decades he refused to ever speak to a therapist or psychiatrist because they are just out to get you and report what you say to the military defense complex - because ALL mental health professionals report details of every patient to the "military defense complex".
THAT'S HIS EXACT THINKING NOW. IT SOUNDS SO MUCH LIKE MY SON IN THE RECENT FEW WEEKS.
My gfgbro has had many of those thoughts, esp about people in power like presidents, popes, etc... just trying to mess with you for $$. For decades he refused to ever speak to a therapist or psychiatrist because they are just out to get you and report what you say to the military defense complex - because ALL mental health professionals report details of every patient to the "military defense complex".
THAT'S HIS EXACT THINKING NOW. IT SOUNDS SO MUCH LIKE MY SON IN THE RECENT FEW WEEKS.
Asperger's seems very close except that he does not like to be alone. He craves the attention. When I wrote about him going into the world of his fantasies - He creates them and furiously tries to persuade others in believing them, seeks proof of his ideas on the internet, etc.
T
TeDo
Guest
My difficult child craves attention also. He hates being alone because he gets "bored". He still has Asperger's. When he is with friends the social awkwardness shows. Asperger's is on the autism spectrum. It is not a be all, end all. There are sooo many variations. Don't rule it out because of that ONE thing that doesn't seem to fit.
That is his obsession. Of course he's going to try to convince others because them not believing what he KNOWS to be true doesn't make sense to him. That is is "reality".
TerryJ2
Well-Known Member
One thing about Asperger's--if you've met one person with-Asperger's ... you've met ONE person with-Asperger's. So don't rule it out yet, just because he's social.
If he would agree to talk to a therapist, s/he can draw out the "why's" of the fantasies.
One thing about the Internet--lots of conspiracy theories, very interesting and challenging, some on target, and some pretty moronic--but in my book, if they don't affect me directly, and nothing has happened directly, (aka was the sinking of the Titanic--a consipiracy because the blueprints didn't match, or did the designers and builders just change their minds because they came up with-better ideas, just as you would do when bldng a house, and either way, so what? It's overwith) so I just hit "delete." He's got to learn that most of the stuff online doesn't affect him. IOW, he needs other activities and needs to know that baseball, or dog training or piano lessons whatever is more important in his life.
If he does not agree, so what? You still have to get him to do other activities and get him away from the computer to balance out his use of time. A sort of "fake it til you make it" plan.
He also has to learn that the adults in his life--you, his parent, for example, know more than he does. One thing with-Aspies--they insist they are always right. They don't respect authority. They don't want to follow rules. They know it all. So you've got to bring him back to home base.
He's missing major critical thinking skills, and he doesn't have enough tools to go through the conspiracies on the Internet. You learn those skills as you grow, mature, and take classes, one skill bldg upon the other. He can't prove any of the conspiracies because he doesn't have the life experience and education to begin to sift through the facts and fallacies. He's simply too young.
Those are also issues that you and a therapist can help him with. And perhaps anti-anxiety medications will help while he is learning. (Or other medications that help with-obsessive thoughts, which a dr can prescribe. The idea is to get him to relax his merry-go-round of repetitive thoughts so he can learn new coping mechanisms and thinking skills.)
I'm just throwing out ideas ... I hope I'm not rambling.
If he would agree to talk to a therapist, s/he can draw out the "why's" of the fantasies.
One thing about the Internet--lots of conspiracy theories, very interesting and challenging, some on target, and some pretty moronic--but in my book, if they don't affect me directly, and nothing has happened directly, (aka was the sinking of the Titanic--a consipiracy because the blueprints didn't match, or did the designers and builders just change their minds because they came up with-better ideas, just as you would do when bldng a house, and either way, so what? It's overwith) so I just hit "delete." He's got to learn that most of the stuff online doesn't affect him. IOW, he needs other activities and needs to know that baseball, or dog training or piano lessons whatever is more important in his life.
If he does not agree, so what? You still have to get him to do other activities and get him away from the computer to balance out his use of time. A sort of "fake it til you make it" plan.
He also has to learn that the adults in his life--you, his parent, for example, know more than he does. One thing with-Aspies--they insist they are always right. They don't respect authority. They don't want to follow rules. They know it all. So you've got to bring him back to home base.
He's missing major critical thinking skills, and he doesn't have enough tools to go through the conspiracies on the Internet. You learn those skills as you grow, mature, and take classes, one skill bldg upon the other. He can't prove any of the conspiracies because he doesn't have the life experience and education to begin to sift through the facts and fallacies. He's simply too young.
Those are also issues that you and a therapist can help him with. And perhaps anti-anxiety medications will help while he is learning. (Or other medications that help with-obsessive thoughts, which a dr can prescribe. The idea is to get him to relax his merry-go-round of repetitive thoughts so he can learn new coping mechanisms and thinking skills.)
I'm just throwing out ideas ... I hope I'm not rambling.
Marguerite
Active Member
difficult child 3 is very social, he has always sought out other people. And he's beyond Asperger's, he's autistic.
In Grade 1, difficult child 3's teacher was chosen because she herself has a child on the spectrum. I spoke to her before the start of the school year and said, "He will not be what you expect; he is different."
She replied, "I live with it too, I do get it,"
I just said, "He won't be what you expect."
At the end of the first day she said to me, "He IS different, isn't he?"
Later in the year she tried to tell me he wasn't autistic, he was ODD and nothing else. I looked up ODD (it was the first I had seen it) and was totally incensed. No way - if difficult child 3 was being oppositional, it was because someone was trying to control him in ways he could not tolerate and which were not good for him. There are better ways to manage a kid like this, if you try to be stubborn with them, you teach them stubbornness. How you behave towards a child like this is how you teach them to behave towards you.
Marg
In Grade 1, difficult child 3's teacher was chosen because she herself has a child on the spectrum. I spoke to her before the start of the school year and said, "He will not be what you expect; he is different."
She replied, "I live with it too, I do get it,"
I just said, "He won't be what you expect."
At the end of the first day she said to me, "He IS different, isn't he?"
Later in the year she tried to tell me he wasn't autistic, he was ODD and nothing else. I looked up ODD (it was the first I had seen it) and was totally incensed. No way - if difficult child 3 was being oppositional, it was because someone was trying to control him in ways he could not tolerate and which were not good for him. There are better ways to manage a kid like this, if you try to be stubborn with them, you teach them stubbornness. How you behave towards a child like this is how you teach them to behave towards you.
Marg
Interesting thing is, you can change "Aspergers" in that quote to any other developmentally-based diagnosis... and it also holds true. ADHD, developmental dyspraxia, etc. - none of them really have a strong "typical" definition. Might be true for a whole other range of dxes too...
One specialist told us that all of these dxes are related, and that the actual labels are just lines drawn in the sand in an attempt to categorize for study and/or treatment... in reality, there is a huge list of symptoms, issues and challenges, and there will always be people who don't match any definition, OR who match more than one.
I get sick of hearing "he can't be XXX because he's not typical of XXX". Well, duh. I guess you can't be human because you're not a "typical" human?
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry if I am repeating, but I didn't read the other answers (I just got back from a vacation).
If he hears things that aren't there and sees things that aren't there, that is a psychotic disorder and needs serious medication. It could be bipolar or schizophrenia. A very important question is, does either run in his family tree on either side? Schizophrenia and bipolar are both hereditary (very much so), and often they do not become clearly defined until the teenage years or later. However, there IS such a thing as childhood schizophrenia and they are starting to diagnose early bipolar (not sure how accurate they are with bipolar). Schizophrenia is pretty specific. Do you see any changes in his cognitive functioning?
Ok, I scrolled back for a few posts. My own .02 is that this is not the autism spectrm because Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) is not a psychotic disorder or a thought disorder. Kids can have more than one diagnoses. I know a classic bipolar I mother who has two bipolar/autistic children... both hear and see things that aren't there on top of exhibiting some autistic traits. I would try to get to the bottom of the voices and magical thinking first.
If he hears things that aren't there and sees things that aren't there, that is a psychotic disorder and needs serious medication. It could be bipolar or schizophrenia. A very important question is, does either run in his family tree on either side? Schizophrenia and bipolar are both hereditary (very much so), and often they do not become clearly defined until the teenage years or later. However, there IS such a thing as childhood schizophrenia and they are starting to diagnose early bipolar (not sure how accurate they are with bipolar). Schizophrenia is pretty specific. Do you see any changes in his cognitive functioning?
Ok, I scrolled back for a few posts. My own .02 is that this is not the autism spectrm because Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) is not a psychotic disorder or a thought disorder. Kids can have more than one diagnoses. I know a classic bipolar I mother who has two bipolar/autistic children... both hear and see things that aren't there on top of exhibiting some autistic traits. I would try to get to the bottom of the voices and magical thinking first.
No schizophrenia or bipolar on my side, no info about dad's side. I will try to find the right moment to speak to him about voices. The reason I asked in the first place, I read about the simptoms of schizophrenia and tried to see what he says if I ask him in a friendly manner about thinking in different voices.
Marguerite
Active Member
If you listen to the Tony Attwood radio interview link I posted, you will hear him explain this exact phenomenon - too often, those on the spectrum (especially the younger ones) are misdiagnosed as having a psychotic disorder, because of a conflict between the way the question is asked, and the very literal way an Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) person's mind works. I know I spent a lot of time in my childhood trying to analyse exactly what was the 'voice' of my inner thoughts. I had what can only be called a "phonographic" memory, I could mentally replay conversations and hear the various voices in my mind. Or I could imagine what a particular person might say, and mentally 'play' that person saying those words. I still use this now, in my writing - I have my characters mentally play-act, and I just write it down.
The problems come when the person 'hearing' these voices cannot distinguish between imagination and reality.
Also in that interview - Tony Attwood pointed out that about 1 in 5 kids on the spectrum have an imaginary friend. And tis is okay when a kid is five, but often seen as a concern (by therapists who don't get these kids) when the child is 15.
Perception of reality is the issue here.
I do recall also - difficult child 1 has a "phonographic memory". We could ask him about some fact or other from a TV documentary and he would mentally replay it in his head until he got to the relevant bit. difficult child 3 does something similar - he is actually an amazing mimic for accents. So is their middle sister (a possible Aspie). She 'practices' various accents and dialects at work and tries them out on the customers to see how accurate she can be. She reports success when a customer asks her how long she has been in Australia from [whichever country whose accent she has been practising].
A younger child especially, will often report their own detailed analysis of their thought processes in ways that can be a worry, unnecessarily so.
I do remember saying to my mother that sometimes the sound of my own thoughts was confusing, and I didn't understand why there were different voices when really, the thoughts were also silent. And difficult child 3 at age 17 when studying for his final high school exams, came in for lunch from his room and said he had to take a break because "I'm concentrating so hard, the silence in my head is deafening and distracting me."
I am neither bipolar nor schizophrenic. I have never had a psychotic break (or come close to one). But I do remember self-analysing in detail when very young, but not always having the words to describe the phenomena of my own thoughts. As soon as I realised that people around me did not understand my questions, or were only going to give me platitudes for answers, I stopped being open about my queries.
I still remember playing with my two imaginary friends. I remember what they looked like, I remember the games we played. I was riding my dinky and they each had one too. I would get very cross if my sisters walked where my friends were playing - I carefully marked out where they were so people wouldn't walk through them. We also played tea parties and had detailed conversations. As Tony Attwood said - in a three year old or four year old, people smile and think it's cute. Or if they're idiots, they panic about breaks with reality... but Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) kids often do the same sort of things other kids do, but at a different age. And a ten year old or 15 year old playing with imaginary friends can have parents rushing to the psychiatrist for antipsychotic medications... when really, it is perhaps just an AD kid with fewer social inhibitions who doesn't know it's not COOL to have imaginary friends when you're a teenager.
Or a kid can be role-playing, perhaps with his Star Wars figurines or similar. Again, not cool in your teens, but Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) kids don't know that. I often hear difficult child 3 talking aloud and role-playing with various toys. He is aware it sounds odd and does try to hide it though.
According to Tony Attwood, 12 is far too young for a diagnosis of schizophrenia. There is often a far more likely explanation but it can require some lateral thinking to find it.
Marg
With respect to some of the others posting, I think that, in this case, it is not appropriate for us to try to help you figure this out via forum post. I think it's great for all of us to offer you some ideas to pursue but you need to take action for your son's sake and that action needs to be immediate.
I feel very strongly that you need to take him to a child psychiatrist as soon as possible so that a qualified professional can start to help you figure out what is going on and what, if any, treatment or further assessment needs to be done.
I feel this is very urgent given that you are reporting that your son is
The fact that the most troubling of these behaviors/symptoms have apparently emerged over the past year - particularly withdrawal from social contacts, slowed or blocked actions, paranoid ideation and obsession - is highly typical of an emerging mental illness like bipolar or schizophrenia.
Mental illness is not a death sentence.
Like any other serious illness, significant symptoms should trigger a search for explanations -diagnosis - which then leads to consideration of treatment.
Like any other serious illness, the sooner serious mental illness is diagnosed and treatment begun the better the odds that the illness will get better.
This is especially true for initial onset-psychosis which, if caught early and treated intensively, may completely remit or never develop into full blown schizophrenia.
I am NOT saying that is what he has. I personally do not agree that these symptoms can be explained by an autism diagnosis, although he may indeed be on the autism spectrum.
What I am saying, again, is that you need to get your son to a doctor and tell them this stuff.
The problem with paranoia, once it is well established, is that the person becomes very difficult to treat because they will not cooperate with treatment. They refuse to trust the doctors, their parents, potentially everyone, and refuse to accept the need for treatment.
This is because they are DELUSIONAL. To be delusional is to be UNABLE to recognize that what you believe to be true is not true.
Please, seek help right away. Do not wait.
I feel very strongly that you need to take him to a child psychiatrist as soon as possible so that a qualified professional can start to help you figure out what is going on and what, if any, treatment or further assessment needs to be done.
I feel this is very urgent given that you are reporting that your son is
The fact that the most troubling of these behaviors/symptoms have apparently emerged over the past year - particularly withdrawal from social contacts, slowed or blocked actions, paranoid ideation and obsession - is highly typical of an emerging mental illness like bipolar or schizophrenia.
Mental illness is not a death sentence.
Like any other serious illness, significant symptoms should trigger a search for explanations -diagnosis - which then leads to consideration of treatment.
Like any other serious illness, the sooner serious mental illness is diagnosed and treatment begun the better the odds that the illness will get better.
This is especially true for initial onset-psychosis which, if caught early and treated intensively, may completely remit or never develop into full blown schizophrenia.
I am NOT saying that is what he has. I personally do not agree that these symptoms can be explained by an autism diagnosis, although he may indeed be on the autism spectrum.
What I am saying, again, is that you need to get your son to a doctor and tell them this stuff.
The problem with paranoia, once it is well established, is that the person becomes very difficult to treat because they will not cooperate with treatment. They refuse to trust the doctors, their parents, potentially everyone, and refuse to accept the need for treatment.
This is because they are DELUSIONAL. To be delusional is to be UNABLE to recognize that what you believe to be true is not true.
Please, seek help right away. Do not wait.
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
I third seriously. Please read her post again. She is very wise.
Talked to him again today about voices. We were driving in the car and he was reading scrips for songs. I told him he should read aloud and sing at the same time. He said it is easier to sing in the head so he can play music in his head. I then asked him if he can only imagine things in his head, has he ever experienced that it is not him imagining but a some other voice is saying smth to him. He said "no". Then he got angry and told me not to interrupt him because instead of the music for that song he started imagining some hymn.
Thanks again for your responses I will let you know about the diagnosis when we get one. I took him to neurologist in June (his appointment was easier to get), we did blood tests, CAT's scan and EEG just to eliminate any medical issues that might be causing this. The psychiatrists that take our ins. are all booked many months in advance, I will get on the phone tmr morning again and try to get in sooner.
Thanks again for your responses I will let you know about the diagnosis when we get one. I took him to neurologist in June (his appointment was easier to get), we did blood tests, CAT's scan and EEG just to eliminate any medical issues that might be causing this. The psychiatrists that take our ins. are all booked many months in advance, I will get on the phone tmr morning again and try to get in sooner.
This is not a situation where you should wait for months to get an assessment in my opinion. A "business as usual" approach is not appropriate when you have this kind of situation. If a qualified CHILD psychiatrist or child psychologist (not MFT or social worker) does an assessment (preferably at least a one hour appointment) that includes a structured psychiatric interview and a
I suggest that you contact your health insurance tomorrow morning. If the mental health coverage is handled by a separate company (this is the way most companies do it now) there should be a separate contact number for them on your health insurance card.
They probably have a 24 hour call center if you want to try to call today. Otherwise, that is the number you need to call.
When you call them, tell them what you have told us. if you like you can print out my post where I listed the quotes from your posts. Read them that and tell them you haven't been able to get your son a psychiatric appointment and you need their help to get one.
If the person you are talking to doesn't help you arrange an appointment within two weeks, you need to talk to a supervisor and tell them the same thing and ask if they can arrange an appointment right away because you are very concerned about your son.
You could also contact your son's pediatrician or GP and tell them and ask for help getting an immediate appointment.
Last option is to contact your local psychiatric hospital intake and tell them this stuff and ask them how you can get an immediate assessment and treatment.
I truly hope that I am over-reacting here. If I am it would be very good news. If I am not - then please know that we are here for you and will lend our support, encouragement and advice any time. As someone else said, it isn't always simple to come up with a diagnosis and it can take a while for that to become firm. The same with effective treatment - but the sooner you start the better for everyone.
Hugs
I suggest that you contact your health insurance tomorrow morning. If the mental health coverage is handled by a separate company (this is the way most companies do it now) there should be a separate contact number for them on your health insurance card.
They probably have a 24 hour call center if you want to try to call today. Otherwise, that is the number you need to call.
When you call them, tell them what you have told us. if you like you can print out my post where I listed the quotes from your posts. Read them that and tell them you haven't been able to get your son a psychiatric appointment and you need their help to get one.
If the person you are talking to doesn't help you arrange an appointment within two weeks, you need to talk to a supervisor and tell them the same thing and ask if they can arrange an appointment right away because you are very concerned about your son.
You could also contact your son's pediatrician or GP and tell them and ask for help getting an immediate appointment.
Last option is to contact your local psychiatric hospital intake and tell them this stuff and ask them how you can get an immediate assessment and treatment.
I truly hope that I am over-reacting here. If I am it would be very good news. If I am not - then please know that we are here for you and will lend our support, encouragement and advice any time. As someone else said, it isn't always simple to come up with a diagnosis and it can take a while for that to become firm. The same with effective treatment - but the sooner you start the better for everyone.
Hugs
Marguerite
Active Member
This does sound like him trying to describe a very detailed memory, but I do not believe it is directly a cause for concern - he seems aware that it is his thoughts. It matches almost exactly, my own experiences. And I am normal (can the jokes, please!).
With the greatest of respect for Seriously and the rest of you who endorse what she wrote, I do urge caution and common sense. A bright child with a vivid imagination (which is still possible in Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) as well as a range of other disorders) is VERY difficult to accurately diagnose, and very easy to misdiagnose. There is some good advice in that post, of course, but I am concerned at how readily some conditions such as schizophrenia are misdiagnosed purely because of the prior bias of the assessor.
But yes - certainly, some assessment is needed in order to get whatever supports are needed for this child.
I am not saying this child has Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). We can't diagnose here. But I am saying, assessment by someone capable and open-minded would be invaluable. And please, do not pigeon-hole yet tat something is a serious problem, until someone expert has CAREFULLY asked the right questions.
Marg
Brought my son for an evaluation at the center for early prevention of mental illnesses. After lenghy interviews with both of us separately the doctor said - I have a good news and a bad news. The good news is that he does not appear to be developing any signs of schizophrenia or other serious mental illness, the bad news is he does those and other things on purpose just to irritate me. The doctor's opinion was that he has sever conduct disorder where he deliberately seeks soft spots in people and pushes buttons in retaliation for any restrictions. For e.g., my son knows that building weapons and talking about violence would upset me, so he does for that specific reason. His advice is intensive counseling, behavior modification interventions and trying medication. He agreed with the previous diagnoses ADD and ODD.
T
TeDo
Guest
Wow. You must have a VERY intelligent 12 year old to come up with such elaborate "plans". Yes, I am being facetious. For some reason, this just struck me as very odd. It's probably just me.
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