Do you think sp. needs kids with normal/high IQ's ....

[buddy]

maybe get priority at times ? I am not talking about kids who are achieving academically well... we all know they have a horrible time getting support.

I was thinking about a friend who has a son with boarderline IQ and graduated with good achievement (did not grad to an IEP, met all benchmarks for graduation) but has autism and our board nephew, Wee... who has had to fight for supports but then his rockin' mom got the superintendent to step in....

In Wee's case if I understand, the super was lead to believe that he was mentally challenged. I dont know if she mentioned it because it was just another example of her being mislead or if it really made a difference in her mind about what he deserved. I am sure (sorry talking for you) that even if he did not have a normal-high IQ mom would fight seeing his progress and wanting him to reach his potential. So if once she found out he wasn't lower IQ --- just hypothetically wondering if that is what influenced her decision to support him, was the fact that he would be an asset to the district in testing rather than a liability in superintendent's mind a factor or even just a feeling people may still have these days that people with normal "potential" on paper be a part in the decision (in his case in real life, she may really have been a caring person who got it....you could take this question into any district and I am just wondering philosophically..... his story just made me think). I get the feeling sometimes that admin has written Q off. NOt just this district, but every district we have been in (three). When he was in first grade a principal said what is the point in teaching reading to a kid if he is going to end up in jail anyway? (strange, huh.... most studies show that a lack of reading skill can contribute to criminal behavior, duh) and reading actually has become a strength for him, once people started teaching it he learned.

My girlfriend's son is in transition plus (the federally mandated option of continuing education after 12th grade to transition to their next step). He is what some would call looking on paper an 'overachiever" when in actuality I believe that he is common for our kids--much research to support this... IQ testing is not valid for a kid with his challenges. They are to be helping him work to gain skills to survive and thrive in a college setting. he even has classes there already but they only give support in these "canned" classes back in the district. The district provides classes where the teachers and aids are all in one building, and they work on summarizing news articles and playing games going out in the community to use appropriate behavior and buy things etc. His parents then helped him get a job in MOA....and so now he is a working college student. He goes there and comes home independently. I KNOW there are Learning Disability (LD) and deaf kids who are not in that classroom program but are in transition plus so why are they writing him off and saying she can choose to remove him instead of supporting his goals to achieve.... his lower IQ scores???

I know we dont have a good way to replace the use of IQ scores, but a chld's potential should be measured by so much more.

 

[InsaneCdn]

Each SD is probably its own case...
Here? The really severely handicapped get the most resources - to the point that a kid with "normal" IQ and less severe needs, gets NOTHING. "Their needs are not serious enough to warrant taking funding away from those who need it more." There is essentially NO support (at least, nothing that costs money)... unless the student qualifies under "high needs" definitions.

 

[zaftigmama]

I think everybody gets screwed. If you want your kid to get what he or she needs, you have to get in there and fight like hell, and maybe end up empty handed. I don't know. Like PP, it seems in my district it's easier if your child is more visibly impaired, you get less of a fight for services. But my kids are little and IQ scores don't factor in so much yet.

I see what you're saying, though--I'll tell you this--I have a friend whose child is eight and has a borderline IQ along with other disabilities. He is eight years old and still not reading. I think it's shameful. He's a typical kid in other ways.

Like I said--my kids are little--but I've seen enough of the "system" to be thoroughly disgusted by it.

 

[Shari]

I hadn't thought of it that way, Buddy, but it is food for thought.

My thinking of the situation stems from cgfg's evaluation when she was in elementary. She struggles to read, is more than a grade level behind in her reading ability, and has been since 3rd grade. During her evaluation, it was determined her iq is at the very bottom end of average, and therefore, the district stated her academic performance is reflective of her iq. While I don't agree with it, the laws are somewhat written to support the thought. The district doesn't even have to educate to the child's full potential. They just have to make progress. Although in this state, there have been cases argued and won that disn't settle for "progress" being good enough.

However, when there is a gap between iq and academic performance, it does leave them open to more liability, and I think part of super's response was based on that disparity between Wee's iq and his academic performance. I also think she is seeing an opportunity to save money down the road. She sees value in catching Wee up at a younger age, and her personal goal is to have him on track academically by junior high...getting him on track will be cheaper than supporting him to this extent for the next 8-11 years, although at this time, everyone (except the building admins) sees some support in the core academics for the foreseeable future. But still - support a few hours a day is much cheaper than support all day every day.

(fwiw, if cgfg's mother would have followed through, per the school, cgfg could have qualified for an IEP with extra support for reading. But mom didn't, and it was a fight we couldn't take on. Cgfg's teacher, through this, is the same teacher Wee has now, and lemme tell ya, this teacher ROCKS. Beyond her, the sped dir was the same...everyone else in the cast has changed.
As for the super, I do beleive she does care. She stays fairly on top of Wee's case since I first went to her last year. That said, they are operating on a budget just like everyone else...if they could get rid of Wee, it would probably be cheaper, but I think she, at least, gets that they are going to have to have some rock-solid evidence to back that decision if they try to go that route. Especially now.)

 

[InsaneCdn]

Shari, I'm guessing cgfg's challenge is that she isn't "bad enough" to throw resources at. She's "only" one year behind in her reading, not "two" - and often, "two years behind" is the yardstick. Here... she'd get no help at all, unless and until 1) she becomes 2 years behind, or 2) she becomes a behavior issue.

 

[Shari]

She was actually more than 2 years behind, but if you take average iq = reading at grade level, her very low average iq = reading below grade level. I editted my post to add info, but the district was willing to step up with her. They said she exhibited symptoms of ADHD along with some other things they found in their evaluation. Their findings, alone, coupled with the iq=academic performance, weren't enough to qualify her, but if she were to be diagnosis'ed with ADHD, the district would have then qualified her and she'd have had an IEP.

Her mom did take her to the doctor and she was diagnosis'ed with ADHD, but mom did not want to reconvene the IEP team because that involved dad, therefore, she never got the IEP or the services.

 

[InsaneCdn]

Yah. Of course. She isn't "bad enough" to qualify... they have to have some form of PROOF, some boxes they can check off. They can't do anything without demonstrating "need". UGH.

 

[buddy]

sorry I called her a he...oops.

Yes, for Learning Disability (LD) that is true it is the gap that matters....in terms of qualification criteria that is... in real life????

I was just wondering if in general people had predjudices about whether or not kids with lower IQ were limited in potential just based on those numbers or a certain diagnosis like Developmental Coordination Disorder (DCD) etc. You are probably right in this case that it referred to her not qualifying for Learning Disability (LD) if the gap was too little. Still goes to the whole... Is IQ a valid measure for many groups of people??? question as well...

Thanks for responding. Just feels sad sometimes that value of people is based on cognitive ability. Like the little girl who is being denied a kidney transplant due to her diagnosis of Mental Retardation.

How can we judge people based on that? It is a big question and really reflects our values as a society in general. Thanks for your thoughts. I really dont know why it puts me in a funk.

I hadn't thought of it that way, Buddy, but it is food for thought.

My thinking of the situation stems from cgfg's evaluation when she was in elementary. She struggles to read, is more than a grade level behind in her reading ability, and has been since 3rd grade. During her evaluation, it was determined her iq is at the very bottom end of average, and therefore, the district stated her academic performance is reflective of her iq. While I don't agree with it, the laws are somewhat written to support the thought. The district doesn't even have to educate to the child's full potential. They just have to make progress. Although in this state, there have been cases argued and won that disn't settle for "progress" being good enough.

However, when there is a gap between iq and academic performance, it does leave them open to more liability, and I think part of super's response was based on that disparity between Wee's iq and his academic performance. I also think she is seeing an opportunity to save money down the road. She sees value in catching Wee up at a younger age, and her personal goal is to have him on track academically by junior high...getting him on track will be cheaper than supporting him to this extent for the next 8-11 years, although at this time, everyone (except the building admins) sees some support in the core academics for the foreseeable future. But still - support a few hours a day is much cheaper than support all day every day.

(fwiw, if cgfg's mother would have followed through, per the school, cgfg could have qualified for an IEP with extra support for reading. But mom didn't, and it was a fight we couldn't take on. Cgfg's teacher, through this, is the same teacher Wee has now, and lemme tell ya, this teacher ROCKS. Beyond her, the sped dir was the same...everyone else in the cast has changed.
As for the super, I do beleive she does care. She stays fairly on top of Wee's case since I first went to her last year. That said, they are operating on a budget just like everyone else...if they could get rid of Wee, it would probably be cheaper, but I think she, at least, gets that they are going to have to have some rock-solid evidence to back that decision if they try to go that route. Especially now.)

 

[InsaneCdn]

Prejudice based on IQ? YUP. difficult child was struggling in school, and the Special Education teacher says we shouldn't expect anything else because of his IQ. Latest round of testing = can't put a number on his overall score, the performance gaps are too wide... he's smarter than they think, and runs circles around most of the teachers (therefore getting away with tons of stuff)... because his IQ is "only" XXX. (he's average... or above, all we can prove is he is at least average)

 

[Shari]

I agree, Buddy. The value of a person is not their IQ. I've met people with extremely high IQ's that don't have the common sense to open the door before they walk through it. I know another one that is unable to keep a job despite being a gifted coder, and he's absolutely brilliant.

It makes me wonder if the stories of people like Carly Fleischmann and DJ Saverese aren't the exception, but maybe possible with all people, if we just figure out the combinations to unlock their worlds...

People just don't fit in boxes. :-(

 

[Shari]

Prejudice based on IQ? YUP. difficult child was struggling in school, and the Special Education teacher says we shouldn't expect anything else because of his IQ. Latest round of testing = can't put a number on his overall score, the performance gaps are too wide... he's smarter than they think, and runs circles around most of the teachers (therefore getting away with tons of stuff)... because his IQ is "only" XXX. (he's average... or above, all we can prove is he is at least average)

Ditto for Wee. As of the last testing, behavior was still enough of an issue that they didn't feel they hit the ceiling...but we know he's average/high average, anyway...

 

[DammitJanet]

Well just look at my family. The only one of my kids that is working successfully is Jamie and he was my most average all of them. His IQ was just average, he made average grades, he went military because he knew he really wasnt college material and he wanted hands on and outdoorsy work.

Both Billy and Cory had high IQ's. Cory's was in the 130's and Billy's was in the 140's. Actually at the highest, Cory hit 139. Billy may be smart but he cant put it to use. He works in retail. Cory is still quite smart but what good is it doing him? He cant do anything but work construction without a diploma.

When Billy went into 7th grade the school actually told me you couldnt have academically gifted students who were also learning disabled. I almost choked them because he had been in those classes in the elementary school for the prior 6 years!

 

[Wiped Out]

I guess each school district is different. I've been very frustrated that difficult child isn't reading yet (he's a freshman in hs). on the other hand, husband and I have worked with difficult child on reading and it is sooooo difficult. His IQ is low but not low enough to be a cognitive disability. All of his disabilities definitely get in the way which is why he has a cognitive disorder not otherwise specified.

I do believe as he gets older (upper hs) they will be working with him more on vocational skills. He will probably be in school til he is 21.

From a teacher's standpoint, I work hard to hold all my students to high grade level expectations. Are there some kids that don't meet those standards? Yes, but I would often say they get even more of my time as I want to get them as far as I possibly can.

 

[HaoZi]

Kiddo hasn't (to my knowledge) had an actual IQ test, but it's obvious to everyone that she's well above average intelligence. In some ways this means she gets shafted because it's all about behavior "which she knows she should behave better". So instead of realizing it's because her brain is wired different and she can't always control her emotional reaction they presume it's that she won't. It also hung us up for a while getting her tested for autism, because I ran across the "she's too smart to be autistic" mind set. And that was from her neurospych!

 

[Shari]

I guess each school district is different. I've been very frustrated that difficult child isn't reading yet (he's a freshman in hs). on the other hand, husband and I have worked with difficult child on reading and it is sooooo difficult. His IQ is low but not low enough to be a cognitive disability. All of his disabilities definitely get in the way which is why he has a cognitive disorder not otherwise specified.

I do believe as he gets older (upper hs) they will be working with him more on vocational skills. He will probably be in school til he is 21.

From a teacher's standpoint, I work hard to hold all my students to high grade level expectations. Are there some kids that don't meet those standards? Yes, but I would often say they get even more of my time as I want to get them as far as I possibly can.

And had cgfg had her third grade teacher or you more years than just one? She probably would be closer to grade level in reading. :-(

Thanks for your dedication.

 

[buddy]

Cognitive Delay is not a listed symptom of autism. It can go along with it but... ummm, nope not in there. And for asperger's...DUH, that category actually says no cognitive delay so who was this clown??? unbelievable and frustrating...

I ran across the "she's too smart to be autistic" mind set. And that was from her neurospych!

Janet, your situation too... so frustrating. The qualification criteria for Learning Disability (LD) is the discrepancy between IQ and achievement. SO, really????? again, where do these clowns get trained?

SO many lives affected by these lazy ignorant people. SO much wasted potential. Just really frustrating.

Thanks all for sharing. My heart hurts sometimes and it helps to talk about and then soldier back into normal thinking and life!