Dog Question

Discussion in 'The Watercooler' started by Hound dog, Jan 23, 2008.

  1. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Our dog Betsy has always been submissive as all get out. Not ever showing a hint of agression toward any other animal. Until recently we nicknamed her the lil s uck up.

    Since the puppy Nichole brought home is the same way in personality we never really thought there would be a problem between them. New pup is also submissive as all get out.

    Seems we were wrong. I don't know if it's Betsy trying to show Gracie who's Boss, or just plain jealousy but she's gone after the pup three times now. All 3 times had to do with food/chewy bones.

    So we've done our best in keeping them apart during the times anyone is eating and no chewy bones except in individual crates. It seemed to be working nicely and Gracie and Betsy were becoming close playmates.

    Tonight was the 3rd time. Betsy had found a chewy bone in Nichole's room. I took it away and placed it back into Gracies crate and locked the door. But I forgot the baby can open the crate doors. Evidently Aubrey opened the door again and Betsy once again got the bone. So Nichole goes to take it, gets it away no problem, but unfortunately Gracie picked that moment to be nosey and approached to suddenly be attacked by Betsy.

    Attack sounds vicious and brutal but we can't actually SEE because they're under the coffee table. Nichole goes to get the puppy away. Came away with a gash in her finger. (don't know if she scraped a tooth, got caught by a claw, but don't think she was bit)

    Attack showed no signs of stopping. I reached down lifted Betsy by the scruff and her back skin and pulled her off the puppy. Gracie takes off running. I place Betsy into her crate with a loud growled NO! (actually took much longer to type than it did in real time)

    Puppy doesn't have a mark on her anywhere. But I think her scent glands went off because she is eminating this foul hound dog scent. Physically she is fine. But I think Betsy's stunt might have just ruined 2 weeks of hard work socializing her. She hid under my desk and it took forever to get her out.

    I have not yet let Betsy out of the crate. But will shortly as pup has gone to bed.

    What I think happened was that Betsy, having had the bone taken and placed into Gracie's crate once, then getting it again only to have Nichole take it, when Gracie walked up she might have thought Nichole gave Gracie the bone. (when she had given me the bone to make it disappear)

    If Betsy wasn't 3 times the size of the pup, and if the pup fought back, I might not have stepped in. But Gracie doesn't fight back or tries to defend herself at all. And I couldn't see if she was truely being hurt or just being "spanked" by Betsy. And this attack was much longer than the other two. They were very short, sort of like Betsy just putting pup in her place sort of thing.

    And I stepped in because older dog Molly will NOT tolerate ANY baby (animal or human) being hurt under her watch. Molly had just made her lunge from the couch as I lifted Betsy from the floor. If Molly had gotten envolved Betsy's spankng would've been painful and might have resorted to bloodshed.


    I need to find Gracie her forever home quickly. And of course wouldn't you know I'm not getting any responses on the ads out for her. (but I'll keep trying)

    Those of you experienced with training and multiple dog situations I think I can use some advice. I don't want Betsy distroying all the hard work we've put into Gracie's socializing ect. And I don't want the poor pup terrorized either. And other than what I was doing with the keeping food/bones away from them and such I don't know what else to do.
  2. flutterbee

    flutterbee Guest

    I don't know if this is factually correct or not, but I've seen this behavior more between 2 females than any other combo. Jewel is submissive as all get-out, except when it comes to her food and any other animals. The cats learned quickly to stay away from her food. She hasn't hurt them, but she scared the daylights out of them. With other dogs, she's the same way. In fact, Jewel will not eat dry dog food. I've tried every brand out there. It's not that she'll wait until she gets hungry enough. She'll starve. Except when there is another dog around. Then she eats it because she doesn't want them to have it.

    Regarding the toys...I would only give them toys when you can be supervising. Give them both toys at the same time and supervise. The rest of the time, put the toys up and out of sight.
  3. hearts and roses

    hearts and roses Mind Reader

    Well, when we introduced Sophie into our home, Nala (also a female) wasn't thrilled. They had a few scuffles and one was bad. I called my kennel because they also do training and he said to let them be (mine are the same sized dogs) so we did. Nala is definitely the alpha dog, but I have to say, eventually Sophie didn't back down and wound up giving Nala a nip in the ear. Since then, they simply co-exist, but they don't really play much. Occasionally Nala will put Sophie in her place, but for the most part, they get along.

    What the groomer did suggest was keeping their crates in separate rooms for a while, until they got used to being housemates. We didn't need to do that as it worked out after the earnipping incident. But perhaps until you find a permanent home you could keep the puppy's crate in your room. That way her bones will be separate from Betsy's bones and this will eliminate something to fight over. Also, you can even feed them on complete opposite ends of the room if possible, each with her own water dish too. When it comes to foodstuffs and bedding, dogs are VERY territorial and same sex dogs tend to have a more difficult time that opposite sex dogs.

    I'd try to keep them separate except for designated playtimes only, if possible.
  4. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Well, it sound like I've been doing the right thing then. whew

    Today's incident was a screw up. I wasn't even aware that we had any chewy bones left, let alone that there had been one in Nichole's bedroom.

    I do have the dogs crates in seprate rooms. Gracie is in Nichole's bedroom and Betsy is in her normal spot in the livingroom. And feeding doesn't seem to be an issue, oddly enough. It's when WE eat that it can become an issue, and I'll usually have either Betsy or Gracie either in a crate or gated in the kitchen so they're not together.

    I feel bad tonight because I think I scared the beegeebies outta Betsy when I yelled and picked her up like that.:badmood: Poor thing has NEVER been yelled at in her life and never ever picked up that way. Heck, up to now she's never even really gotten popped on the nose. (and she's pushing 2 yrs old) And I wouldn't have done it except I was afraid she was really hurting the puppy.

    So I loved on her alot when I did let her out of the crate to be sure she knows I still love her dearly.

    I sure hope I can find Gracie a home soon.
  5. SaraT

    SaraT New Member

    Well, I'm not an expert, but I have had experience with food aggressive/protective dogs. And I have the kind too big to pick up.

    I have broken all three of mine from being possive of toys/bones, and their food. It is hard work, but worth it. Mine are all fed in same room now and can have bones in same room.

    Here is how I did it.(You can try it or not as you choose.)

    Put Molly in another room, and only work with 2 dogs at a time. Put both other dogs on leashes.(You will need a helper, or tie one to a door or something.) Give one dog the bone/toy. If the other goes for it, tug back on leash and say no. This will take several times of repeating. Then switch which dog has bone, and do same to other if they go for it. Use the same bone, and keep switching which has the bone. This teaches them that sharing doesn't mean loosing. It could take weeks to get through, but they eventually learn and you can have them off leash with no fights. It also teaches them that the humans are the "alpha dog".

    This worked on 2 rotts and 1 shepard, so it might work on your 2.

    Just a thought.

  6. Star*

    Star* call 911


    There is no icon here that shows me slapping my hand over my mouth and not giving any more advice about "the puppy who is supposed to leave and find her forever home."

    I thought she was gone.

  7. Calista

    Calista New Member

    Google "dogs resource guarding". There are several sites with good info.
  8. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful


    Puppy hasn't left yet. Although we're trying hard to make it so. I'll even take her to a rescue facility (I know their adoption policies are excellent) but at the moment the ones in our area are full. Seems like everyone is full so soon after xmas.

    So I have ads up everywhere and have her on several lists for rescue groups. In the meantime, Nichole is still holding up her end of the deal, and we're still working on Gracie's socialization and training to make her even more adoptable.
  9. Star*

    Star* call 911



    You need to keep them separated - the old girl has the pack mentality. She believes that she should be at a certain status level, and with the younger pup coming in ESPECIALLY for treats - it's a threat to her. Submissive or not. She's showing the pup where HER PLACE is. It's not near HER, especially when she is given a treat by the Alpha leader - you.

    If you don't give Gracie her treats in front of your older dog - she'll never know the pup is getting "leader attention". The pup is trying to figure out where her station is - and the older female is letting her know. In essence - the older dog is teaching the pup respect. And it's stressful for older dogs to deal with puppies - in their minds - it's a replacement or someone that will grow up young, strong, and then they will be at the bottom of the totem pole of dog life.

    It's a dog thing -but if they were in the wild - she would have gotten the same treatment. Either keep them separate - or don't give snacks. And don't sneak snacks either - they know.

    Hope this helps
  10. 'Chelle

    'Chelle Active Member

    I know you feel bad about Betsy, but you actually handled the situation well. My sis breeds Italian Spinones and has 4 plus one spayed rottie. They are all house pets as well, and one of her females has decided she needs to be boss over the others, mostly the rottie. They're both large dogs, so a fight between them is a scary thing. She's handled the situation much as you have, being dominant over the attacking dog and crating her. By picking Betsy up and telling her no and crating her, you are letting her know that YOU are alpha female and what YOU say goes, and fighting over food/toys is a no-no.