ch574

New Member
The problem comes when you can't just walk away, privately shaking your head and wondering where his parents went wrong, because you are the parent....

Thank you, Dr. Riley. I just wanted to weep when I read the above because you said what I've been feeling but unable to put into words myself. Thank you for your reply to my question about remorse, and your honesty about the fact that I would find this book more useful than the other. I am looking forward to reading your ideas about the "big guy zone." I have noticed on a few occasions that when I give my son additional responsibility to emphasize that he's the "big brother" in this house, he seems ready to burst with pride, and he becomes very attentive to the task (usually "helping" me cook dinner).

SRL - if I may add my $.02 (as a former teacher) to your post about reading in a classroom and the ADHD child... I think it is essential that parents be fully aware of what kind of reading techniques are used in their child's classroom. Small groups working simultaneously on separate things that require attention can be distracting to typical children, let alone the ADHD child. I think good teachers do what they can to mix up their instructional techniques to reach most of their students at some time or another, but there will always be kids who slip through. I can also say from experience that it is really important for a parent to stay on top of their child's IEP with the teacher and check in regularly to make sure needs are being met. The importance of reading... real reading, not just word-calling, but full-blown reading comprehension... can not be overstated, and the better a foundation parents and teachers can lay at an early age, the better success ANY child will have down the line. Check in periodically with your child to make sure they're comprehending what they read and not just word-calling (ex: I had students who could read a whole paragraph out loud about a kid in a red shirt... and when they finished, they couldn't tell me what color the shirt was. -Even though they'd read the words out loud, they were not comprehending the meaning in their own heads).
 
SRL, re reading groups: I think CH574 expressed everything that I would have to say about reading, particularly the issue of comprehension. As for the classrooms, it drives me nuts that the current fashion is to seat four kids in a pod with their desks turned inward so that they end up kicking each other, irritating each other with their noises, and bugging each other in general. Many, many years ago one of the smartest teachers I knew would allow her ADHD kids to go sit in the back of the room in beanbag chairs as long as they remained on task and did not disrupt others when getting up or down. I also like it when classes take movement breaks and stretch breaks. There is growing evidence also that ADHD boys learn better in classes that are two to three degrees cooler than a typical mixed gender classroom, and when they are allowed to use the old-fashioned desks that are attached to the wall and have stools instead of chairs so that you can either sit or stand while you do your work. I also know from experience and older research that ADHD kids, boys in particular, learn better when paired with teachers who use multi-modal instruction, such as brightly colored overheads, animated powerpoints, films and filmstrips, hands on and kenetic learning, and so on. If you ask an ADHD kid to sit still and listen to verbal instruction he will feel like his brain has melted and is dripping out of his ear - listening is the least efficient way to get an ADHD child to learn. The new animated blackboards are great for them, as well. At the same time, there is a fair amount of older but very interesting research on verbal prompting during instruction, and how it helps kids stay on task. Just food for thought.

Doug Riley
 
Samsdad, regarding the spitting: I think that you are especially smart to remove milk products for a few days, and then reintroduce them to see if it provokes negative behavior. Let's say, however, that the spitting turns out not to be food driven after you have gone through the elimination diet, but is simply overly aggressive behavior when angered. You might want to use a technique that I have used on a number of occasions with the little spitters that I work with. I ask parents to label the spitting behavior "little guy behavior," and to tell their child that they want to see him acting the way that big guys act. Go to some length to explain that big guys do not spit. Then, be sure to catch him being good: find a stretch in which he has yet to spit, and praise him heavily for being in the big guy zone and not spitting. Have his day care providers use this feedback model heavily, and have them praise him and give his rounds of applause for staying in the big guy zone. Some children place a great value on being described as big, and hopefully this will work.

If a positive reinforcement technique like this does not work, I then ask the parents to keep a very juicy set of wet wipes handy and explain to the child that every time they spit, it gets all sorts of "germies" all over their face. Then, the next time they spit, wipe their face really well, being sure to leave it dripping. Tell them that you will do this every time they spit because you do not want them to get "germies" all over their face. Be prepared for an explosion the first time or two that you do this. However, it is amazing how quickly it will knock out the spitting for most kids because it removes the reinforcement that they otherwise get from their aggressive behavior.

Remember - try to find the underlying cause first (possibly food sensitivities in this case). If it turns out, however, that there is no known underlying cause, and a child does not respond to positive feedback, it is OK to move forward with a mild aversive response in order to wipe out a negative behavior. Once the frequency of spitting decreases, it is absolutely imperative that you continue to give him lots of verbal praise for being in the big guy zone and acting the way the big guys act.

Doug Riley
 

samsdad

New Member
Day 4 after taking Dr Riley's and others advice for removing Dairy from my sons diet. I am happy to tell you he seems to be reacting MUCH differently than before to commmon situations. Even his blow-ups and almost serene and really short in duration. I will keep everyone informed as we progress, but at this rate we could have a normal 4 year old soon.

Thanks to all,

Sams Dad
 

samsdad

New Member
Still only positive results after removing Dairy from my sons diet. Thanks to all and keep up the fight for your childrens health.
 
Samsdad:

Glad to hear that things are going well. Your son's case may end up being a wonderful example of the importance of running down the underlying cause of a child's explosive behavior so that you can use a treatment specific to it. Pat yourself on the back for being willing to look under every rock.

Doug Riley
 

samsdad

New Member
You also deserve a pat on the back for making me look at a rock in the first place. It is amazing my sons transformation. If i didnt like milk so much I would go on an infomercial touting 1 easy step to curing your child. Thanks again from a dad who not only has his son back, but also can look into his unstressed wifes eyes also. This has really changed our lives.

Samsdad (and proudly so)
 

carissa

New Member
It's very helpful to have differentiation between explosive and oppositional behaviors.

We sought help from a family psychiatric when my son was 18months. Saw her off and on. She suggested sensory processing disorder from our descriptions of our son and his getting kicked out of preschool at 2.5 years old - tactile sensitivity, proprioceptive sensory seeking.

My son was evaluated by the school district at 3 - qualified for social/emotional delays (very, very below avg) and maybe a bit delayed by the Occupational Therapist (OT) for sensory but above avg for verbal and cognitive and avg for fine/gross motor. At 3.3 yrs, per Children's hospital psychiatric evaluation diagnosed as Disruptive Behavior Disorder - not otherwise specified. We went to PCIT - parent-child interaction therapy for .....8 months (should have been 16 weeks). They said " you have a hard case. this basically works for everyone else". We have procedures in place for timeouts, etc (don't work) and lots of positive reinforcement (which i see the benefits of).

Here we are. I'm really feeling my son needs some psychiatric help that we can't give him. He's super aggressive. Always has been. But everyone I've talked to says he is too young for one-on-one therapy And the enormous problem we face is safety issues with his interactions with our 18 month old daughter. example: he pushed her high chair over today!!!! And very regularly hits her, etc.

We are seeing a psychiatrist. He basically only counsels for medication. My son is on Concerta (18 mg), Tenex 5mg 2x a day, and Omega3. Have also tried Adderall, clonidine, ritalin. And are strongly considering risperdal. We've also tested for food allergies.

My son does well is school. Struggles with boredom ( he is very bright) and when others are in his space. At home, he struggles with jealousy, transitions, boredom.

What do we do with a child who shows no remorse for injuring his sister? The Concerta really helps with the impulsivity, but my son is still very irritable, angry, unhappy, etc. The safety issues are very disturbing and unbearable. I can't leave the room to pee.

Essentially I'm wondering what to do with a young child who is very oppositional, seems to have some anxieties (that professionals don't really acknowledge) and is a danger to his sister. I'm very concerned psychologically. Even on medications, he gets in trouble fairly regularly, is volatile, and discipline involves very physical interactions - he kicks, hits, bites,etc when getting put in time out (60% of the time).


I'm sure this isn't clear as it is getting late. What am I not explaining clearly? I'd love any input, love, help, etc. I feel like we are failing our son. And ultimately our daughter as well

Thanks!!!
 

Tania_port

New Member
It's very helpful to have differentiation between explosive and oppositional behaviors.

We sought help from a family psychiatric when my son was 18months. Saw her off and on. She suggested sensory processing disorder from our descriptions of our son and his getting kicked out of preschool at 2.5 years old - tactile sensitivity, proprioceptive sensory seeking.

My son was evaluated by the school district at 3 - qualified for social/emotional delays (very, very below avg) and maybe a bit delayed by the Occupational Therapist (OT) for sensory but above avg for verbal and cognitive and avg for fine/gross motor. At 3.3 yrs, per Children's hospital psychiatric evaluation diagnosed as Disruptive Behavior Disorder - not otherwise specified. We went to PCIT - parent-child interaction therapy for .....8 months (should have been 16 weeks). They said " you have a hard case. this basically works for everyone else". We have procedures in place for timeouts, etc (don't work) and lots of positive reinforcement (which i see the benefits of).

Here we are. I'm really feeling my son needs some psychiatric help that we can't give him. He's super aggressive. Always has been. But everyone I've talked to says he is too young for one-on-one therapy And the enormous problem we face is safety issues with his interactions with our 18 month old daughter. example: he pushed her high chair over today!!!! And very regularly hits her, etc.

We are seeing a psychiatrist. He basically only counsels for medication. My son is on Concerta (18 mg), Tenex 5mg 2x a day, and Omega Brite. Have also tried Adderall, clonidine, ritalin. And are strongly considering risperdal. We've also tested for food allergies.

My son does well is school. Struggles with boredom ( he is very bright) and when others are in his space. At home, he struggles with jealousy, transitions, boredom.

What do we do with a child who shows no remorse for injuring his sister? The Concerta really helps with the impulsivity, but my son is still very irritable, angry, unhappy, etc. The safety issues are very disturbing and unbearable. I can't leave the room to pee.

Essentially I'm wondering what to do with a young child who is very oppositional, seems to have some anxieties (that professionals don't really acknowledge) and is a danger to his sister. I'm very concerned psychologically. Even on medications, he gets in trouble fairly regularly, is volatile, and discipline involves very physical interactions - he kicks, hits, bites,etc when getting put in time out (60% of the time).


I'm sure this isn't clear as it is getting late. What am I not explaining clearly? I'd love any input, love, help, etc. I feel like we are failing our son. And ultimately our daughter as well

Thanks!!!

My son is very aggressive also and it seems to me like since he is only 5 no one wants the responsibly of his medications or what he may do to someone. I have been pasted around everywhere and no doctor seems to want anything to do with my son. He started this sort of stuff when he was 2 i think is the earliest i can remember. He got kicked out of a Daycare my X tells me. For safty issues. He was trying to leave the school and hiting the teacher. Its only getting worse and im getting more worried because i have a 3 year old. She has watched my son do some awful things. ANd my son doesnt care what he does to anyone. I have even told him if he doesnt straighten up hes going to live with his dad and he hates his dad. He keeps doing crazy things though. I cant turn my back on him without him doing something terrible. I hate that the doctors are scard to deal with a young child. In my area it seems like they are use to normal kids. Its terrible having such a hard kid and no body seems to wanna help. This year my son is going to school and i have already warned them of his behavior but im scard hes going to hurt a kid. Hes so angry and nothing seems to make him happy for long at all. He wants to hit everything. He wants to break things all the time. I have never seen someone so angry for so long. Every day all day long hes mad. I ask him why and he doesnt know. We asked our behavior therapist what we do if he kills one of our animals and he says make him dig a grave. I dont know if they are really taking us serious or not. My guess is no. What would anyone do if there child kid one of their animals on purpose? My son says he likes my cats but he has done terrible things to my cats. Like cutting with the sissors. Good luck i hope things get easier for you and your family. Oh yeah do the medications help anything? Im suppose to get my son on some today and hoping that the medications can slow him down atleast a little bit. hes very hyper. He cant sit still for 2 long. I think my son also has a control issue. He wants to control everyone. About a month ago i over heard him talkiing to my 3 year old telling her that he can beat his step dad and he held up his arms and showed his muscles. These kids are pretty strange to me because i do have 3 other normal kids. They dont even act close to what my son does. He has no feelings when it comes to anyone else. But when he gets hurt its the end of the world.Usually it all starts with him playing with a one of my daughters then he gets angry and starts trying to hurt them. What i see my part is is not leaving him alone for a second with my other kids or my animals and i get mad because nobody else gets that much attention except him. He gets it all. So my other kids have to do without attention because my son is sucking it all up. Our behavior therapist says if we have to leave my son in the room for 2 hours for the fits, he doesnt care. The trick is to make him hate the punishment then maybe he wont do the behavior. I hope this plan works im running on near empty.
 

Tania_port

New Member
Dr Riley,

I bought the explosive child because after all the post from the parents i thought it would help. It seems to me like with the cruelty to animals and children that my 5 year old is doing that its the defiants. About a month ago i overheard him talking to my 3 year old telling her that he can beat my husband,and he showed his muscles. My child is angry all the time and throws fits all day long over such small things. Hes like an emotional drama king. Over tiny things he get so mad. Like saying no to him. He thinks that he is equal to adults. I dont know what to do because its only getting worse. My husband and i have been married to for 2 years now and hes about feed up with my son. I dont think hes going to stick around much longer. Our Behavior therapist says that we gotta slow him down because his ADHD, to start and also we have a plan on his behavior and it consists of the time outs. What i want to know is if i have other kids then how can i actually have time for the other kids if i am so focused on my son at all times. I cannot even turn my back on him because hes likely to do something bad to my 3 year old or our cats. We have been so stuck on trying to make my son behave and we got nothing left to give the other kids. I feel bad for the other kids now because my son ***** up all the attention by acting out. Should we take specially time for the other kids? They are good kids and it feels unfair that they get hardly nothing. I think i might have bought the wrong book also. My husband read a little of the explose child but he doesnt think its going to work. What i told him is we have to try to defuse the fits he throws all day. Maybe that will give us some relief. And of course stick to the time outs that the therapist says my son needs. What i have been doing is sending him in the room until he can be quiet because he will scream at full force. Sometimes hes in there for 30 mins until he calms down. I dont spank and seems like last time we did time outs he didnt do well with that the behaviors kept being the same. Whats the best book for the difiant child that is 5? Hes very aggressive and abuse toward animals and children. Hes cut my cat with scissors and choked my girls a few different times. Hes not be diagnoised with anything for sure. But they think ADHD and mixed developement disorder,PTSD. Learning Disability (LD) they said. Its hard for me to believe because he thinks of lies so quickly he will look ya in the face and lie about all things. He just doenst care about anyone but himself. And his dad is a sociapath. I was with him for 7 years and we have 4 kids. Only the 1 son has his dads personality problem. His father isnt aggressive or physically abusive though. Any suggestions for my son? I dont think hes got the Learning Disability (LD) its his speach delay and plus he doesnt want to do anything unless its fun for him. If he doesnt see fun in it it he wont do it. Thanks for your time.
 
Tania_port and carissa:

Sounds as if you are both dealing with exceptionally difficult situations. (Tania - by the way, I am not the author of The Explosive Child. That would be Dr. Ross Greene. My most recent book is What Your Explosive Child Is Trying To Tell You. While both books are about explosive children, they have very different viewpoints and approaches. Hopefully a careful reading of both will give you more techniques to use.)

I have seen many, many highly aggressive children at my office - the types of children who are quick to hit their parents, teachers, and other kids when they are displeased. Like most people in my profession, I am a believer in using the least restrictive technique. If talk works with your kid who hits, great. If it doesn't, but time out does, great. However, with most of the assaultive kids I have worked with, talk and time out and taking away toys was like pouring water on a duck. It rarely got their attention.

When dealing with children who are persistently assaultive and aggressive toward others, and who have not responded to other techniques, I am a believer in using aversive consequences. The idea behind this is age old. If you do something that you simply should not do, and the consequence of it is that something happens back that you really do not like, there is a lessened chance that you will do it again. Let me give you an example. I had a mom in my office whose 4 year-old son clocked her right in the face because he was mad at her about something (I forget what). She was very embarrassed by this, but said it happened often. I told her to put him in a basket wrap between her legs, and keep him there for 45 seconds. I indicated that even though he would scream like bloody murder, she was to remain calm and speak to him, saying that in about 45 seconds she would let him go, and once she let him go, he had to act like a big guy. I also had her warn him that if he hit her again, she would wrap him again. I cautioned her that you never tell a child that you will restrain them until they are "good." This is an invitation to a pitched battle. Letting him go in only 45 seconds ut the decision back in his hands. If he was good, he could avoid the wrap.

In this case, when she let him go he struck at her again. I had her do the entire procedure again, and had her tell him that she would continue to do this every time he hit her, or balled his fist up at her.

To make a long story short, it took about ten repetitions until her son realized that from now on out every time he hit, he would get wrapped. I had his mother explain to him clearly that she would indeed wrap him without any warning every time he attempted to hit her, or acted toward her in a highly aggressive manner. In his case there were no more occurrences at all of hitting for at least a week, and over the next month the occurrences became almost nil. What she also found was that once her son knew she would take control of him, she was able to use verbal warnings, time out, and positive reinforcement much more successfully. It was simply very important for her to establish the fact that she was the parent and he was the kid.

I have used this procedure many, many times over the years with kids whose parents have tried all of the other interventions, but nothing worked. I find that on the web some people have been outraged by it, while others see it as simple good old fashioned parenting. As long as a parent remains calm and in control of herself, or himself, it is physically harmless. The yelling and screaming that you will get from an assaultive child when you use this procedure illustrates just how outraged they are that you would actually take control of them. When used calmly and humanely, it can dramatically reduce assaultive behavior, and reduce it rapidly.

I will reiterate strongly, before you move to using an aversive procedure like this, you have to be sure that you have ruled out all other issues, and you should have tried a wide variety of techniques. I have had lots of success with what I describe as the "big kid program" in my book, and lots of parents who have hard to handle children tells me that it is quite successful.


Best regards, Doug Riley
 
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tiredmommy

Well-Known Member
Thanks Dr Riley. The one word of caution I have about holds/wraps is that parents should be shown the proper way to restrain their child so that no one gets hurt. This training can probably be obtained by a by a mental health professional or medical professional.
 

Tania_port

New Member
Thank you! My husband went and got 2 of your books at barnes and noble last night. I starting reading a little about the ADHD kid in one of your books. Thats one thing that they said my sons might have. I see that he could possible have some other things going on also. For years now hes been lining things up. And its every day he does it. Its like a compulsion to line things up. I also noticed with a few of my kids the sensitivity to loud noises. He use to cover his ears when i would turn his bath water. Now he doesnt do it with the bath water but he complains when the pans rattle or something like that. And my 3 year old does the same thing. My 7 year old i noticed also doing that. One thing i also noticed is my 5 year old and my 7 year old wont eat foods that are the textures are weird to them. They wont eat hamburger meat for 1. I know there are other i just cant think right now. I found out last night when i went to drop my son off at our sitters that he pushed a 2 year old so hard that the kids head bounced off the wall very hard. I think my son might be able to control his anger also. When my husband gets home from work my son acts so much better. And thats because hes got spanked from my husband. The problem with me spanking is ive had my son laugh at me after i spanked him. So it doesnt work for me. Our pediatrician is suppose to be getting on the ball to get us some medications. Our behavior therapist gave us a letter telling the pediatrician that our son is a danger to kids and animals. So im waiting as patiently as possible. Hopefully they will give him something that will help with the aggressiveness. He kicked me yesterday. And i dont think my husbands going to allow my son to stay here if he hurts my 3 year old or our animals. It just seems like if my husband leaves the house my child loves it because he can walk all over us. And i dont let him. He gets lots of punishment from me but you would think that i let him run crazy by the way he acts. I was watching my son look at my 3 year old yesterday and she was playing and having a good time by herself. Well he was stareing her down. Like he hated her. I dont think he wants her to have fun. The look he was giving her i cant even put in words because it was a scary look. My daughter isnt a bad kid either. She helps him do lots of stuff. Like if he says i cant do this she will run over to him and help him. I dont think he even likes her or any of us at all. I wonder why he puts himself so high like hes an adult. Like he should be the boss of all things.And if hes not its hell to pay for all around. I dont think he cares for women much at all. Seems like men do a better job with controling him a little bit. I hope that these book will help. I have read some reviews on a few different books on amazon and yours seem like it actually give us witts end parents some hope for some success. My child is way out of control and love isnt going to fix it. I know now that ive gotta learn to be hard to control my son. Even though hes got some medical issues he has control because if he didnt he wouldnt act better when my husband comes home. He has choices to make and he makes them. Hes going to see the school pathologist on thursday and they are going to run some tests on him. Im unsure what she can do but anything is better then nothing. Thank you for writing books. Some days i loose all hope of anything working and im hopeing with the medications and our behavior therapist plus your books we can find something that works. Im willing to try about anything at this point. My husband tells me that he cant do this much longer with my son,its his step son, so im guessing he means it. Thanks for your time. I really appreciate the help.
 

smallworld

Moderator
Dr. Riley, thanks for sharing your expertise with us. I know the parents here really appreciate it.

I echo what TM said about being trained by a mental health professional in the proper way to restrain a child. We don't want injuries to result in either parent or child.

I also want to point out that some children become more explosive while taking stimulants rxed for ADHD. Stimulants can exacerbate pre-exisiting anxiety and cause depression over time, even if a child doesn't have a bipolar-like mood disorder. If your child is getting worse on stimulants, it's something to ask the prescribing doctor about.

Tania_port, if your child(ren) is lining up objects, that's a red flag for an autistic spectrum disorder. You should ask your pediatrician who in your area is the best to evaluate for autism. Or call your local Autism Society for referrals.
 
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I agree entirely with the cautions about physical restraint raised by the moderators. I wanted to reiterate that it is to be used only as the last resort, after all other possibilities have been considered and tried. One of the true strengths of this board is its deep sensitivity to developmental issues. In that regard, I am also in agreemnet that restraint is not an option for kids in the Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) spectrum, autistic spectrum, and so on.

Thanks, Doug Riley
 

Tania_port

New Member
Thanks! I have to get more tough. Thats all there is to it. Dont worry hes going to be tested for all sorts of stuff. The thing is hes probley got a lot of stuff going on. I know he can control somethings by him controling himself when my husband comes home. I will mention when i take him to the pathologist tomorrow about lining things up all the time also and his behavior therapist also,pediatrician. If your tired of your kid walking all over ya and love doesnt do the trick then i think you gotta try something different. Let them know your the boss,not them. They are only children and we shouldnt let them control us. Im sick of it to tell you the truth. If you know that they do stuff on purpose then i think its time to get tougher. Im going to keep reading your books. I appreciate the help. If nothing else works then i would most definately take your advice about the restrain.Your books have some pretty cool examples of what to do in certain cases. Im thinking getting creative is pretty important.
Thank you so much.
 
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