explosive child vs. love and logic

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by pepperidge, Jan 24, 2011.

  1. pepperidge

    pepperidge New Member

    We all recommend reading the Explosive child and are probably comfortable with Plan A (do it or else) and Plan C (not worth the battle). But how many of you actually try to practice Plan b and go through the steps consistently? Have you learned it on your own or do you think you need to go to seminar?

    And how does Love and Logic fit in? It doesn't really seem totally consistent with Explosive Child --more like an empathetic Plan A--I can't make you do it but if you don't do x or y or z the consequence will be a or b. Less emphasis on problem solving.

    I like the philosophies and try to apply them in general terms but don't think I am doing a great job on the specifics. Have any of you gotten out of crisis mode long enough and really made an effort to systematically apply these tools?
    Any thoughts or advice?
  2. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Im probably one of the very few who cant stand the explosive child technique. Sure I dont pick every little thing to battle but I just never could get into it. I was more of a Doug Riley type gal. Never tried love and logic, havent read it. I actually watch Supernanny quite a bit and I like her methods to tell the truth, though I would probably use a bit more swats on the rear end for a few things than she advocates...lol.
  3. Marguerite

    Marguerite Active Member

    We do what works. I love Explosive Child because it has worked so well for us. Things are still a long way form great, but so much better than before, and we can at last see the chance of some future capability for difficult child 3.

    We use Plan B a great deal, it's become almost instinctive. husband is finally getting the hang of it - it's not been easy for him because it has involved such a major change in direction for him. There is always the problem of when you're so tired you can't think straight, which is the time to watch out for - that is when you snap back to automatic pilot, and all your good efforts can be undermined with one misplaced cross word.

    Plan B also works best when you can plan ahead and set things up. For example, we collected an old washing machine yesterday from easy child 2/difficult child 2. husband finally got the chance to look at it - it is unrepairable. He said, "I'm going to want to tear difficult child 3 away from his gaming in a while, to come help me move this out of the way."
    I went inside and as I passed difficult child 3, I said, "Dad is going to need your help in a while. The old washing machine has to get moved out of the garage. It cannot be fixed and is junk."
    So I laid the groundwork. When husband went to difficult child 3 and said, "Come on, son, I need your help," the seeds had already been sown. He remembered, he went to help. I did hear him ask, "Can this be fixed? Why not?" and I gather husband showed him just how much was wrong.
    Result - husband & difficult child 3 worked together to do a task, helped one another, no arguing or shouting. A positive interaction. Each time this happens well, it is a bonus and lays groundwork for the next positive interaction.

    We go out of our way to help difficult child 3 and let him know we have done so. Not in any rub-it-in-his-face kind of way, but so he is constantly aware that we do not take him for granted, and require the same consideration back from him as a target.

    His attempts - we welcome. We forgive imperfection, but model and rehearse with him the behaviour we aim for.

    It's an ongoing process.

    For us, Basket A is always mostly empty. We don't enforce what we can't be certain of getting. We don't engage battles we can't win. But we do what we can to get what we want, and praise him when we get it. In this way, Basket C is shrinking.

    Haven't yet read Love and Logic, but I do think I have to get it out of the library.

  4. gcvmom

    gcvmom Here we go again!

    I can't say that I do anything consistently, however, we do get around to implementing Plan B as often as we can possibly can. There are times, especially when emotions are running high, that it has to be put in Basket C and returned to at a later time. I've found, though, that the more often my kid feels like his concerns or needs are being addressed, the more willing he is to negotiate a compromise because he knows that I will try to be fair. If I try the Basket A/My-Way-Or-The-Highway with everything, I could never get to Basket B. Same thing with Basket C. I think it all boils down to establishing expectations that are reasonable and being flexible enough to know when those expectations need to be adjusted.

    Here's one example from our life: difficult child has homework. It has to get done. difficult child is tired and doesn't want to do the homework. I try to come up with a compromise that helps difficult child deal with both issues. In this case, I might suggest having something to eat, taking a specified break time, and then returning to the homework at the end of the break. Usually this proves to be an acceptable arrangement for both of us. However, there are some days when it becomes a Basket C item, especially if emotions are running high.
  5. 4timmy

    4timmy New Member

    I LOVE this! It's just my husband, me, and my difficult child and I'm CONSTANTLY laying the groundwork! It stresses me out but it keeps the peace.
  6. Shari

    Shari IsItFridayYet?

    Using plan b and TEC literally saved our hides with Wee... It was really hard at first, but its largely second nature for me now. The bad part is that he tries to negotiate a lot more things than are really necessary now, and I tend to jump into "I'm not negotiating" mode a little too quickly... Wee learns well from modeled behavior, so I figure modeling there is just as important as anywhere else. I'm learning to say "you know what, I didn't consider your offer before I answered, I'm sorry, let's talk".

    Of course, the fact that he'll throw your response right back in your face verbatim the next time you ask him for something helps me to learn. lol

    It just works really well for him. Tho his sped teacher was not familiar with the book when she started, she uses essentially the same method with him and it works amazingly well. And he has made HUGE progress so far this year.

    by the way, he has quadrupled his site word list in 4 months. And he is truly starting to read.
  7. HaoZi

    HaoZi Guest

    Kiddo tries to negotiate a lot more now. She doesn't always hold up her end of it, but it sure beats a tantrum off the bat. She actually applied that skill to a new issue last night. We were reading a dinosaur book together, and she asked what "impale" means. There was a fork right there, so I grabbed it an motioned over my arm how it's different from a slashing motion and she flipped out thinking I was going to "impale" myself on the fork. She calmed down pretty quick and said "Next time I ask, if it's something gory that might upset me, would you tell me that it might upset me first and let me decide if I really want to know?" I couldn't say no to that request and told her I was proud of her for appropriately making her request.
  8. 4timmy

    4timmy New Member

    That is so sweet. I love it when that happens!!
  9. confuzzled

    confuzzled Member

    i was too embarrassed to admit it, but now that janet said it out loud i'm with her. (i watch supernanny too and i do think there is something to be learned from some of her "techniques"...basically because they are a lot of common sense, consistency and follow through anyway!)

    so i guess maybe put me in "might need a seminar" camp....i have difficulty with TEC. no doubt its a lot me, and not as much a problem with whether its a good program or not. maybe a seminar would change my mind or show me how to make myself really stick with it as intended. some of the philosophies are natural to my parenting style--i try to be empathetic and i try to problem solve collaboratively but to do it formally? not so much.
  10. Josie

    Josie Active Member

    We never had any luck with TEC for A. We could never work on Basket B so it was all either A or C. Even after she had calmed down, trying to bring up the issue and problem solve only brought on another episode. Even bringing up the fact that we needed to problem solve was a problem. There was no reasoning with her.

    With some sporadic relapses, she is now typical teen and we don't need to do TEC. Love and Logic style consequences work well. When she is back in her difficult child mode, neither one works to change her behaviour.

    B has some anxiety issues and TEC principles work well for her.
  11. AnnieO

    AnnieO Shooting from the Hip

    I still think Onyxx would make a great lawyer... If she can get past the interesting verbiage.

    I tossed the kids' rooms into Basket C. Probably forever. Hers more so - I mention it every so often, but it's more messy than dirty. I let her know messy is okay, filthy is not.

    Problem is, she tries to apply this to everything. She doesn't call, goes somewhere, we have no idea where she is, but she has a "good reason". We laid down the law - you don't get a response from at least one of us, the answer is no. You do it anyway, you're grounded. THAT, is Basket A until she no longer lives here. She gets in trouble at school? No problem! The teacher hates her. And if we don't agree? Eggshell time... I'm not looking forward to seeing grades.

    We're not so good at compromise with her - because she does not want to. Jett is easier. "We can't go to Wal-Mart tonight, but tomorrow we can. Will that work?" Yup. Her? "NO! I HAVE to go tonight!" (I am so tempted to say, someday... "Then walk.")

    L&L works much better on Jett than Onyxx. L&L is great - would have worked great on me - but Onyxx is rather illogical...
  12. HaoZi

    HaoZi Guest

    Step, have you considered http://www.gpsfortoday.com/gps-tracking-for-kids/

    I think one of the reasons I see and also recommend TEC to new people is that whether or not you use the methods, it gives a good insight to where a lot of kids are coming from, and just having the parents stop and think a moment about the situation before reacting to their kid can help, too. So for some it can help the parents break that knee-jerk reaction that escalates things. For those that have been here a while chances are they've at least looked at it, and likely many other books, too, but for newcomers looking to help their difficult children, it's a good starting place even if it doesn't work as a solution.
  13. AnnieO

    AnnieO Shooting from the Hip

    ...Only if I could have it surgically implanted. We tried that with our last phones. She found out how to turn it off. It's not available on these. Sigh.
  14. HaoZi

    HaoZi Guest

    I didn't look too much at all the options available, but is there one small enough you could sew into the lining of her purse without her noticing? I'd say backpack, but she probably leaves it where ever.
  15. timer lady

    timer lady Queen of Hearts

    I have the book TEC. With the tweedles we ended up using L & L. It worked because they had absolutely no control in their young lives in bio home. This (when explained well) gave them the choices with known consequences ahead of time. On good things & on bad things. husband & I implemented L&L in all areas of the tweedles lives.

    I think it really depends on the child & their coping skills, their frustration (or lack thereof) levels & on the parent's ability to follow &/or implement the ideas in either book in their homes.
  16. Marguerite

    Marguerite Active Member

    I want to emphasise - it is OK to say you don't follow TEC or can't use it to good effect. Everyone is different. I would hate to think that just because it works for me, that I think every other parent is a failure if it doesn't work for them.

    Not at all!

    You use what works and discard what does not. I do agree, HaoZi, this book does give good insight into how these kids often tick. But like all of us, kids are complex creatures and we have to always modify what we do in order to have a chance of making it work. How we modify, and what we do, is why we come here and share.

  17. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    As a mom of five, I tend to think all kids need different methods of parenting. I think The Explosive Child is great for calming down your house. For actually changing behavior, some kids respond to one method, some others, some a mixture, and some nothing at all. I have raised my kids, all very different, and could not use one method on all of them.
    I have a friend who tried Love and Logic with her major difficult child and not only didn't it work, the kid made fun of it and mimicked her and he certainly did not improve. That doesn't mean it's not a good method for some kids. I just think it's for some kids and not for others. I don't like what they use in two preschools I have worked for recently. They both use "Conscious Discipline." Basically you can never say anything negative and the kids are never disciplined at all. I believe this fad will pass quite soon, but it's very popular now. They don't even allow time outs. Behavioral fads come and go...in my opinion you do what works best for your child and your family. JMO
  18. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    They will come and go and all kids are unique. We had 3 kids and had to handle them all in slightly different ways.

    Billy, you could basically tell him what was expected and he would obey. He didnt want to get into trouble. Sometimes he didnt quite understand what you were actually expecting out of him but he never deliberately misbehaving. I think he was spanked maybe 4 or 5 times in his entire life and never after his 4th birthday.

    Jamie was harder. Tony refuses to remember any of this but Jamie was a handful. He was on the go from the time he woke up until he fell asleep. You couldnt take your eyes off him. He was so impulsive he did things without thinking. I had to basically corral him and keep his environment safe for him. He would try to be good but he often didnt have the impulse control to do so. This was all pre-medication.

    When Cory came along he was pretty easy until he hit toddlerhood and then all heck broke loose when we had the two whirling dervishes. They fed off each other and it was a mad house. I never went anywhere without a switch in the car and those two on leashes. They would run in two different directions from me. I remember well trying to move from Myrtle Beach to Greensboro by myself with them in the car. I had them strapped in car seats but they would bicker and fight and I would lean over the seat and swat them. Benedryl was my best friend that trip...lol.
  19. pepperidge

    pepperidge New Member

    Thanks for all the repsonses. I think you are right that sometimes these books (particularly TEC for me) open up new ways of looking at problems. And that alone has value. Seems like implementing the programs recommended by the books requires a degree of training in the method and constant coaching that fewof us have available. I keep thinking I would be a better parent if I really worked harder at doing what the books recommended but alas like exercising and all those other good things it requires a tremendous amount of discipline to do it faithfully and with any degree of rigor. So i do things more by the seat of my pants. But I feel like I could do a better job with really good coaching.
  20. confuzzled

    confuzzled Member

    i'm pretty much sure, if you found your way here, you are a darn good parent....

    no matter what the "books" and the "experts" say.

    don't beat yourself up...none of us are perfect, and maybe (or more likely not) we could all do things differently/better/easier. everyone has their own skillset, learned behaviors, buttons to push, reactions and tolerances.

    the one thing that the "books" forget to tell you is that each and every one of us are human.