Follow-up stolen ipod touch sich

H

HaoZi

Guest
But what if Jack is in fact being victimized by his big brother? That's what would be eating at the back of my mind.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
I must admit, that bothers me too. But the complexity in this - think about the end result we would want, ideally. We would want, if something bad is happening to Jake, to see it stop and all involved to get help. We also want difficult child to be safe and to not feel bad about telling. We also want Jane to be okay with being told about your concerns.

Can this be achieved? If so, what is the best way to proceed? And if it cannot be achieved, then what can be salvaged out of this? What can still yet be achieved?

I remember when difficult child 1 was in his teens, he had a friend (a few years younger) whose older brother was supplying him with porn magazines which he would show to difficult child 1. I tried to report it to the parents but they said, "Boys will be boys," and did nothing. I do not believe in that situation that there was any abuse, but the younger boy did begin to run with a bad crowd. The older boy was also a bit of a problem. Over time the younger boy grew up a bit, stopped being such a problem and went straight. He is now a hard-working local bricklayer, just an average guy. Says hi when he sees me.

I'm not sure if this problem with Jake is in the same category. We can't know. What to do - it can be a matter of evaluating the chance of success against the ramifications of failure. Will intervention make things worse? What if Jake turns the story around and claims it has been difficult child molesting him, who put the porn on the iPod, etc? What if CPS gets called on you? Are you ready to handle what happens next?

Jake is staying away for now. Will he continue to stay away? easy child was left alone because it was feared he would tell. difficult child was approached instead but he has now told. Who will Jake approach next?

I'm sorry to seem so inconsistent here, but this really is a no-win situation. I think you have to consider your own needs in this. And your own needs include being able to live with whatever outcome results from your choices.

Marg
 

hamlet

New Member
I totally see what you are saying, Marg. When this came out in therapy, my first reaction was to not tell Jane anything assuming that she will think difficult child's story is retaliation for having stolen the ipod touch in the first place. Being as objective as I possibly can be, I believe difficult child's assertions. Stealing the ipod is difficult child's problem. Inappropriate sexual activities is Jack's problem. Two separate problems.

While I have a friendly relationship with Jane, I can predict that telling her this information without any evidence other than one boy's word against another will be easily dismissed. If she asks Jack about it he will either deny it or he will lie to cover up. What I may like to see happen - i.e. Jack gets some help - may only serve to push his behavior further underground.

I do not have the resources to face possible tit-for-tat "charges" from Jack. Since Jack is leaving us alone and difficult child trusts me enough to continue having discussions about Jack, sexual responsibility, porn and puberty I feel I can protect difficult child much better than if I had to face CPS, (and therefore ex-h,) in this situation.

Sigh. It is a no-win matter.
 

Mattsmom277

Active Member
This is a sticky situation for sure. I'm sorry you're stuck wondering how on earth to handle this, and especially since you know the mother well, live so nearby and aren't sure she'll be responsive.

From my perspective, putting myself in your shoes, I'd mention it to Jane even if it blew up in my face. If her difficult child tries to deflect by blaming your difficult child, that's on her difficult child, not yours. You've looked into this enough to believe it has merit from your son, you've seen his story not waiver and he hasn't back peddled when faced with knowing that you intended to speak to the boys mother about this.

This boys mother may or may not decide to take this seriously. She may say boys are boys. She may deflect by pointing fingers at your difficult child. You really can't know until all is said and done. You certainly are eloquent and intelligent and I know you could, if you decide ultimately to speak to her on this, put it in a non judgemental way. There is a chance that she'll not believe or say the whole boys will be boys thing. Even if she says that boys will be boys, you could respond without criticism of her take on this, that yes indeed boys will be boys. That you thought she should know because while you aren't dealing with this information with a knee jerk reaction, other parents may and if Jack approaches this type of thing with another child of reactive parents, you are concerned for her son that he could find himself in a boat load of trouble. At the minimum, even if the mother does nothing or doesn't believe or whatever, this knowledge might help in the future if another child makes accusations of being approached by this boy. Then the mother will recall what your difficult child said and it might prompt her to take a look at her sons needs.

I find it very sad to think of a child with bipolar not having more help than this woman seems to be giving her son. That does not bode well for the thought that she will deal properly with this situation with her son. But it may be helpful to her in the future as her son is a difficult child, this situation aside. I also think that it is important that when we teach our children to come to us when things like this happen, that they see we follow up and handle it appropriately. In this case since it never escalated into more than talk really, appropriate is letting the boys mother know what was going on. She need not freak out, I mean kids DO explore at that age, and some kids really have no clue about appropriate boundaries and curiousities. And many kids get afraid that a friend will tell and make "threats" such as saying it will end their friendship if they tell. Even the gay sex part isn't a big flag. I mean, if the boy is confused sexually, it is no different than boys at that age checking out their parents magazines in between their mattresses. Even if not confused sexually, it could even be a matter of it freaking him out at that age to picture girls naked so the images of 2 males isn't as threatening. Its a confusing age for children, even more so if the child is bipolar and is facing hyper sexuality issues as many bipolar people face. This doesn't mean that this woman needs to envision her son being some future sexual deviant abuser by all means. And if it is a curiousity related to sexuality confusion, it might help her realize her son is questioning his sexuality and perhaps needs some support with that and understanding that it is okay to explore his thoughts on his sexual orientation.

My older sister, the one I've only just met, has a 20 year old son and a 18 year old daughter. My niece is bipolar. My nephew identifies as transgendered. he is in the beginning stages of a very long process of working towards surgical intervention to become a woman. His path has been a hard one and I know my sister has mentioned some awkward situations in his younger years when most kids start exploring sexuality and understanding sex and wanting to understand more about it. Where boys and girls were starting to kiss etc, her son was unaware of the impact his own similar exploring because his exploring attempts were made towards boys. He is not a abuser, he was simply young and didn't know any better and thankfully my sister learned about it and was able to talk to him and help him figure out what was going on with him. I'm saying all of this to say that this other boys mother need not freak out that a boy was exploring sex or porn, but that he certainly is at the age that she needs to recognize his curiousity and help him learn what is appropriate etc. And the sex/porn thing aside, he could use a good lesson in how to treat his friends so he doesn't lose them. None of this behavior of that boys raises huge flags for me at all. But does raise a good point for this other mom, that it is time to have some good talks with her son as he is maturing and with that he needs guidance in what is appropriate etc.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
husband & I went to a wedding today. A difficult child wedding. It was difficult child 1's best friend (Aspie) and the bride has been on the scene as a friend of ours too, for years. She suffers form anxiety and clinical depression. I met her mother today for the first time and she was very open about the family history of clinical depression. Told me she is stable on medications, so is her sister, but their mother (bride's grandmother) suffers with it but is in denial - will not consider it, cannot accept it, won't talk about it. But is miserable and makes everyone else miserable too because she's not coping.

My point - some people are ill-equipped to accept a diagnosis like this in the family. And sometimes the diagnosis is in the parent too, in some form.

Another interesting observation form today - the groom's mother was looking for the right place to sit. She was about to sit up the back but husband & I made her sit up the front. Very front row. She said, "I can't sit there, I'll be in people's way. Someone else more important to the service should sit there."
"Like who?" we said. "You're the groom's mother, the bride's family are in the front row just over there, your seat is here up front. Grab the rest of your family too, there is room."
We actually sat in the second row in order to make her stay put. She's a lovely lady, but very unsure of herself and reluctant to put herself forward. She never fought battles for her son, I actually fought them for him as I simultaneously fought them for difficult child 1. I dragged both of them to college enrolment, walked them both through it then dragged them in to meet the disability counsellors. I even liaised with the disability counsellors over the phone.

Some parents can't be warriors, they don't know how, or if they are told they need to be, they feel inadequate to the task. I wonder if Jane is like this - a decent person (like the groom's mother today) but just doesn't know what to do or where to start, doesn't feel she has a right to be an advocate for her child, and hence it is easier to downplay any problem and shove it under the carpet.

difficult child 3 has a friend who was diagnosed high-functioning autistic at age 4, largely because I got involved and found therapists etc. I arranged for the boy and his mother to come with me and difficult child 3 to a neuropsychologist, who did assessments on both boys on the same day. But the mother has never told the school, and doesn't want to make waves. When she met resistance from teachers, this parent caved and backed down. I fought the exact same teachers and knew that this mother had every right to ask for help for her son and that it was wrong for the teacher to make the mother feel she had no rights.

Some parents choose the path of least resistance because for them, life has taught them that this is what they must do.

Very sad, really. I don't know if Jane really is like this, or if there are other issues. But I've found that I have had to stay friends but keep my fingers out of their business. THEY have to own the situation, otherwise nothing will be achieved. I've helped in little doses, as much as they could handle, then backed off when I saw the barricades begin to slam up. Little by little, is all we can do.

Marg
 

DDD

Well-Known Member
My suggestion was not to confront Jane but to find a way to suggest conversationally the contents of the Ipod. I know from my own experience that trying to share all the concerns can be unsatisfactory and due to your circumstances I can understand wanting to avoid it. on the other hand, the subject of the Ipod contents could be approached without fear, I believe. If you believe that aspect of your son's story then a generic conversation about possible inappropriate sites would give her at least an awareness of some reason to be more vigilant. DDD
 

exhausted

Active Member
No matter how you decide to handle this situation, please. please protect your son. He should never be alone with Jack again. The consequences are life altering should any abuse continue. My daughter is seriously mentally ill (was probably genetically predisposed, but not to the degree it has become) from sexual abuse at an early age. This abuse(from a teenage cousin) we didn't even know about or have a chance to confront until 2 years ago. She has been in 2 Residential Treatment Center (RTC)'s, 4 psychiatric hospital stays, and lots of therapy. She is a huge danger to herself. This smart, seemingly happy, well behaved child, erupted suddenly at puberty into full blown PTSD. It's been a stressful downhill battle ever since. By the way, the abuse she suffered was repeated, and started with many requests and lots of grooming. If we had known or suspected, we would have called in the army to protect her from what has now occurred. Keep Jack in full view!
 

hamlet

New Member
Update for you who kindly posted to me on this thread - I finally talked to Jane tonight. I had a deal with difficult child that if Jack ever asked him again for "gay sex," difficult child would immediately come and tell me. Today was the first time since I began this thread that difficult child was playing at Jack's house, (with his parents home of course,) and it happened.

While the conversation with Jane went well and was not contentious, I got the feeling right away that Jane wanted to bury her head and not confront this. I told her first that Jack may be looking at inappropriate things on his ipod. Jane stated that she controls the account and can see anything that Jack downloads. I explained to her that one need not download in order to look at porn on-line. She said that Jack had looked at something like that once, but after they discussed it he did not do it again. Then she said she would ask the older son to look at the web browser history on the ipod since he is "good at that," and Jane does not know how.

When I brought up Jack pressuring difficult child for sex, Jane stated that she simply couldn't believe that Jack would ask difficult child for sex since Jack is embarrassed by the topic and doesn't like to discuss it. Jack has no interest in sex, according to his mother! I went into more detail such as when, where and how the requests were made. Jane said she would talk to Jack and probably the sexual banter was meant as a joke.

I know Jack will deny it, but if there are porn sites on the ipod history then at least that aspect will hold true and maybe Jack will get some help. difficult child seemed relieved to be able to come and tell me, and at the prospect that Jack will stop.
 

susiestar

Roll With It
I hope that you can give difficult child some reward for coming to you and telling you when it happened. Not to make a big deal about it, but to reinforce that he did the right thing. It is likely that Jack will try to make him think it si the wrong thing to do.

As for Jane, she doesn't seem to realize that a kid may not want to discuss sex with an adult but be more than willing to seek it out on his own and to discuss it with kids. Heck, think about when you were a teen. If your parents brought up sex did you want ANYTHING to do with the conversation? But how about with your friends - at whatever age sex became a topic of interest to you?

I think that Jane is hiding from this. having Jack and his bro share a room is not a good thing, esp as bipolar runs in families and I have to wonder if the older bro is also bipolar and also may have hypersexuality to deal with?? That would be a really BAD combo to share a room, in my humble opinion. Sadly, I see a LOT of parents who refuse to face that their kids have problems and that it isn't a "phase" or whatever.

You have done what you could for Jack. Now you need to put some limits in place so that your son is protected. If Jack is being shown porn or groomed or molested by his brother or someone else, well, he is likely to do those things to other kids. You have to do everything you can to protect your son even if Jane won't do anything to protect Jack.

You may not be a mandated reporter or there may be no teeth in the law that would make you a mandated reporter, but you DO have the option of reporting this to CPS if you think that Jack is really having a problem. Chances are they will at least investigate if you tell them that Jack has made overtures to get your child to have gay sex with him and has shown your son porn and has tried to touch your son's genitals. You can do this anonymously, but Jane will likely assume you reported this. Sadly, short of CPS involvement, Jack may not get any help. You have to decide if this is a step you are willing to take and if it is warranted.
 

keista

New Member
I'm glad things are progressing with Jane, I'm sorry they have to be. I'd say at this point, difficult child can NOT play with Jack anymore. Yes he feels comfortable getting himself out of the situation and telling you, but he should not be in that situation in the first place. My opinion will change if Jane actually gets some REAL help for Jack, and everything is out in the open - assuming your son would still want to go play.

I agree with Susie that calling CPS may be necessary to help all involved. It definitely is warranted, but is also a risk on your friendship, but just as we were discussing before, that friendship seems like it might be fracturing anyway. I know I'd have a difficult time remaining friends with someone who was so much in denial about their child and what they should do about it ESPECIALLY if it affected my child.

((((HUGS))))
 

DDD

Well-Known Member
I'm proud of you. You've strengthened the bond with your son and taken the uncomfortable step of speaking with Jane. Denial is a very common reaction when an touchy subject is raised. Perhaps your conversation will at least trigger some thoughts or doubts deep inside Jane. I hope so. It's awesome that your difficult child followed through with your agreement about sharing. Way To Go! Keeping fingers crossed that something positive comes out of your efforts. Hugs DDD
 

hamlet

New Member
Thought I'd let you all know Jane's recent update. She spoke to her son, Jack, about the interaction between he and difficult child. In fact, Jack, Jane and older brother had a few days at the beach giving them the opportunity to go over it at length. This evening she called me to fill me in.

The best news: Jack admits that he did ask difficult child to engage in gay sex. He claims that it was a joke but understands that difficult child does not take it that way and he says he will stop. Jack denies and got "upset" that difficult child said he offered money for gay sex and that he told difficult child not to tell anyone. He also claims that it did not happen 75 times.

Jane and Jack talked about the inappropriateness of those conversations. Jack now understands that he's not to say things like that to anyone.

Jack says that he did "touch" difficult child, but he did not purposefully grab difficult child's privates. If anything, his hand accidentally brushed against difficult child as they were walking or Jack swatted difficult child on the butt like football players do. (When I told this to difficult child he said, "Football players do that?")

No word about porn on the ipod touch.

I count this as a victory. Many of these justifications pale in light of the fact that Jack was honest enough to admit that he did ask difficult child for gay sex and recognizes that it makes difficult child uncomfortable. I am happy that it is out in the open. I hope that Jack has learned something that will benefit him into the future.

difficult child and I will have the same deal as before; if Jack mentions anything like this again or is looking at porn difficult child is to come home and tell me immediately. No sleepovers and no playing in rooms with the doors closed. difficult child did hang out with Jack a bit tonight and told me that Jack wanted to know if I would be mad at him if he came in our house.
 

susiestar

Roll With It
I think this is a substantial victory!!! It is big that Jack admitted to what he asked, and even with his explanations, you know his mom is not hiding this or hiding from this. I hope difficult child told Jack that you would not be mad if he came over to play. Having them play in your home gives you a bit more control, if nothing else.

You handled this wonderfully and so did Jane. Having a few days away to discuss this probably meant that she could get a better grip on what was going on than if they were at home with all the normal things that have to be handled. This could have resulted in a very unpleasant confrontation between you and Jane and with the end of your friendship with her and difficult child's with Jack. Instead, both you and Jane behaved like reasonable adults and worked it out in a way that benefits everyone.

This truly was a victory - and you should feel very proud of the way you handled it!
 

keista

New Member
YAY! Sounds really good. The best news is that it is all out in the open, and no one got angry and no one got "in trouble" AND the boys aren't mad at each other. Now both boys know that they can trust their moms with such sensitive stuff if it ever comes up again.
 

JJJ

Active Member
YAY! Sounds really good. The best news is that it is all out in the open, and no one got angry and no one got "in trouble" AND the boys aren't mad at each other. Now both boys know that they can trust their moms with such sensitive stuff if it ever comes up again.

This is a huge thing! Way to go hamlet and Jane
:bravo:
 

hamlet

New Member
Not so fast... Things have taken a turn for the worse.

Apparently Jack has informed other children in the neighborhood that difficult child stole the ipod touch. There have been several incidents of difficult child being harassed by other kids asking Jack, "Why are you friends with difficult child? He stole your ipod touch!" Jack did not stand up for difficult child or say, "We got past that."

Apparently we are not past it.

I told Jack I'm fine with him being in our house. I was looking for an opportunity for all of us to sit down and just have a chat about leaving the situation behind us, but that didn't happen fast enough.

Today Jack and difficult child had a fist fight. Both claim the other started it. There was no blood and not even any bruising, but just a few red marks. No adult was present, but right before the fight happened I was having a talk with difficult child over lunch about being friends with everyone in the neighborhood. I told him he should try to rise above the teasing and offer the olive branch, to "kill them with kindness." I was hoping it would occur under controlled circumstances with me present, but difficult child saw the kids in the vacant lot and approached them. Fighting ensued.

I think that Jack is clearly having problems and I wonder how upfront and honest Jane was being with me. I tried to talk to older brother, but he was repeating what the neighborhood kids told him, which was false. Older brother was challenging me; he was sarcastic and demeaning, so I told him I would need to discuss it with Jane.

Poor difficult child is absolutely despondent. He feels the whole neighborhood is against him, and, in fact, that's how it looks. Sigh, it is so HARD to be a difficult child!
 
L

Liahona

Guest
I'm wondering if Jack is doing this because difficult child told about the sex requests. He could be mad. Plus, if he makes a big deal about difficult child less people will notice him. Keep the focus on stolen ipod and mom and brother and other kids won't do anything about him (like therapy, more questions, supervision ect... )

It is sad that Jack is doing this. difficult child shouldn't have stollen it, but after he took it his behavior has been wonderful. He gave it back. He opened up to you about a difficult situation. I am so impressed with your difficult child. I'm sorry Jack is using the neighborhood kids to gang up on him.
 

keista

New Member
Hamlet, I'm still wondering what role, if any that older brother has in this. He's 17? At that age, I'm not expecting total maturity, but, I dunno, something a bit more mature than a tween?

I'm sorry you and difficult child now have to deal with an angry neighborhood. I'd just guess that If Jack got all the kids angry at difficult child, then difficult child would never get the opportunity to tell them about the gay sex. Not that I think he would, but Jack may be thinking he would.

Flashback! My "best friend" at the time, pulled a similar stunt on me when we were 16 - involved alcohol not sex. I was never going to tell, but she never knew that. Her guilty conscience drove her to accuse me, and turn ppl against me. Caused a huge rift in our circle, because others were involved as well. Saddest thing was that I would have "had her back" if she had ever talked it through with me. Now, years later, she laughs when she tells ppl she has no recollection of what happened, and she's very interested in 'reconnecting' with me. I forgave years ago, but I have never forgotten every detail of what transpired. The best I can do is be distantly cordial when we are in close proximity.

So, in my opinion Jack is nowhere near as innocent as Jane stated. He's got her hosed if she believes his story.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
I agree with you, keista. I think Jack is doing his best to cast blame further afield and to deflect/distract.

A consolation (of sorts) - the sort of kids who fall for thus crud and who are hassling difficult child now, are also the sort of kids to be easily led into bad stuff later. So if they alienate themselves form difficult child (and vice versa) it actually better insulates him from their bad influences.

Just keep congratulating difficult child on speaking the truth and being a better person than others are being. It WILL come back to bite the others - because if Jack is sexually acting out, he will need an outlet, and it will undoubtedly be from his current circle of supporters. And someone else will eventually put the puzzle pieces together.

I saw easy child handle something like this - she was regularly being hassled by a (female) bully on the afternoon transport home. A good friend who should have stood up for easy child, failed to. easy child was telling me about it when she got home, when the phone rang - it was friend, apologising for not standing up for her. easy child was polite, but made the girl squirm. And I have observed as these girls have grown up - this friend has always tended to follow the crowd and compromise her principles in order to be accepted by the "popular" kids. As a result, she and easy child are on nodding acquaintance, but otherwise not in touch. And when I talked to the mother of this other girl, she has had difficulty settling to a career path, she can't make her own decisions. She's constantly seeking approval form others. While easy child makes her own choices and is doing much better in life. This other girl is a decent person, just confused and overly dependent on the approval of others.

Marg
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
Sigh, it is so HARD to be a difficult child!
Its not just the difficult child kids. Our almost-easy child gets it too - she refuses to fit in with the "in" crowd, so they plaster the whole school with negativity about her, and turn her into a pariah. The school has no power over these kids - just like a neighborhood. In this case, its over half the girls in the upper grades - too big a group for teachers to track what's going on, and too much $$ involved - not exactly a group of parents you'd want to stand up to either. She wouldn't be a target if she wasn't exceptional... but that is who she is... exceptionally kind (including to the bullies - on an as-needed basis only), exceptionally hard working, and exceptionally successful - just NOT at all "popular". She's more mature than some of these kids' mothers - which of course doesn't help either!

The challenge lies in knowing how to help them deal with it, and how and when to step in... and what to do when none of this works.
 
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