Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by angelaincali, Dec 19, 2007.

  1. angelaincali

    angelaincali New Member

    I am a mother of 2 beautiful boys, Peyton 10 and Tyler 3. Peyton was diagnosed at 5 with the ADHD. Now 10, he is violent, aggressive, rude, and just an all around BRAT! I know I shouldn’t say that about my own child but I don’t know what to do anymore....I NEED HELP!!! I have been doing research and self diagnosing the ODD. He was just diagnosed with depression and is on 2 medications now. Concerta and Celexa. I get a call/e-mail almost everyday from his school. He has either hit someone or just refuses to do anything. His teacher literally has to physically remove him from the classroom and carry him to the principal’s office where he goes and sits and refuses to talk.
    Just recently my 3y/o got kicked out of child care due to trying to be like big brother....(PLEASE GOD NO, I COULDNT HANDLE ANOTHER) I try not to let them "mingle" to much together so the younger one doesn’t pick up all the bad habits but I cant live like this forever. It is a battle everyday, morning, noon and night with my 10 y/o. All of these programs for ADHD/ODD cost aprox $4K-6K a month. So.....this is another attempt to try to find help and know that I am not the only parent out there that is having these problems.
    We just did an IEP at the beginning of the school year. Supposedly (also thankful for) he doesn’t have any learning disabilities per say but he refuses to use his brain and CAN NOT sit still for 5 seconds to do any work. Every night we start home work at 6pm and 90% of the time does not complete it until around 9pm. I am working on getting him a 504 plan (which his teacher already does for me) He takes 54mg of the concerta and 5mg of celexa for depression. I myself don’t think he is depressed but I do however think he is ODD. He has not been diagnosis'd with the ODD yet. The school therapist works with me as well as his teacher. They are very proactive in helping my son. He seems to do a little better when his classroom setting is with a MAX of 5 kids but he is still aggressive. He was recently suspended for 1 week for brining a knife to school (one only knows where he found it)He says he found it at school but he is also a pathological liar so I cant believe anything he tells me and Monday he punched a GIRL in the face. I could video tape my son doing these things and he would tell me it wasn’t him or they made him do it. My home is always in chaos......HELP!!!
    How do you find any peace with ODD? I think I am going to have a stroke everyday from anger. ha Is there treatment for ODD? Are there state funded programs/schools for kids with ADHD/ODD? I am in the Air Force and can not afford $6K a month. One would think the military would provide some assistance but I have not found any. I am desperate!
  2. nvts

    nvts Active Member

    Ok, breathe, breathe, breathe!


    Yes, you can work with ADHD/ODD kids. First: get Ross Greene's "The Explosive Child". Your son is wired differently than most kids so this book will help you understand his thought processes. Some disciplines don't work with these kids. Once you can kind of "see" things the way he does, you'll have a fighting chance.

    Can you get a neuropsychologist done on him? Check with your insurance or the base physician and see. This is done by a neuropsychologist and it's literally hours of testing. They'll be able to help you because they can pinpoint potential problems/ diagnosis.

    Once you get a formal diagnosis, you can fight for different school programs, etc.

    Gotta go, the garbage truck is coming up the street and this is my last recycle pick-up before Christmas.

    Talk to you tomorrow!

  3. Marguerite

    Marguerite Active Member

    You're spending HOW MUCH? Is it working? If not, how better could you use the money?

    Some of these programs are great, they do work in part for a range of conditions, but there are also programs which have set themselves up by taking bits of research here, bits of research there and packaging it all up with a hefty price tag and a hard sell. I am carefully NOT mentioning names here.

    My sister's son was an odd kid. He was probably ADHD plus a bit Aspie, looking back. But 25 years ago, getting a valid label, let alone any useful help, wasn't easy. He was always obsessed with how things work and would 'invent' things. He went on to become one of the best car mechanics around and is very happy in his career.
    But I remember the effort my sister went to to get him help. She took him to see someone somewhere who had her organise a gymnasium for him in the family garage. They did not spend a fortune to get this information, but they did have to buy some equipment for his father to make things like a balance board for him, a special kind of swing and other stuff. She then would play with him according to instructions given by the Occupational Therapist who had given them this info, the purpose of this play being to help him reprogram his brain to develop areas of his brain that were not working efficiently.

    These days a certain company who shall remain nameless are 'selling' the same therapies, for a huge price. And you have to go in to see them to get the sessions, you are not encouraged to modify your own backyard. The equipment they use to test kids - I got tested on similar equipment at bargain basement rates when I was having my balance checked out at a local hearing clinic at a major Sydney hospital. When I saw the ad on TV, I was amazed - it was the same equipment, minus a lot of stuff. I also recognised prettier versions of the therapy equipment my sister's husband had made to use in their garage.

    When you have children like ours you get desperate. And when you are desperate and the condition is not life-threatening, then the sharks move in to make money off us.

    My suggestion - read a lot. Become an expert. That's all this company did - the bloke who started it all was not medically qualified, he had a child with problems and worked things out for himself (so he claims) although I heard he's being challenged legally by the person who alleges he set up therapy for the child in question. And the high price is being justified with statements like, "You can't attack us - look at all the children we are helping!"

    Part of the reason they charge so much, is they can't service too many kids at once and it becomes a matter of supply and demand, pure economics. It's not the costs that make it so expensive, it's simply that if they charge $100 a month, they might get 2000 applicants for 200 slots of time; but if they charge $500 a month the number of people prepared (or able to) afford that much dwindles to a number more closely matching the availability. Their appointment book is still full but they make five times as much.

    The numbers are purely my example.

    So I recommend - read the research. If necessary, go to libraries and read through old research papers, all the hard copy. Some of the best stuff is no on the 'Net, not the primary sources anyway. Go back about 20-25 years and look up therapies for ADHD and autism. They should have blueprints.

    Then have a go at doing it yourself. If you can get a health professional to oversee what you do, so much the better. But if you are asked for big bucks to pay for therapies, find out if you can either get it cheaper, or do it yourself (legally) much cheaper. And important - check the credentials of the people responsible. The expensive stuff may well be administered by professionals (they can afford to hire them now) but the concept itself may simply be a hotch-potch put together by someone who was once what we are now - an untrained, desperate parent.

    Have faith in y our own understanding of your own child and also in your own abilities. We live in a world where we have instant gratification and we expect that we only have to snap our fingers or throw down enough dollars and our children will be magically morphed into normality by someone far more qualified and capable. Sadly, this is not possible. But our society leads us to think it is, which only increases our desperation.

  4. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Hi and first of all welcome. I have a few questions that will help all of us help you.
    1/ Who diagnosed him?
    2/ Are there any psychiatric, neurological or substance abuse issues on either side of his family tree?
    3/ How was his early development? Did he have any speech delays? Eye contact issues with strangers? Does he know how to interact appropriately with his peers?

    I think it's time for an updated evaluation. Concerta and Celexa combined can really make kids with mood disorders worse. Together they can make them violent and beyond. ODD isn't a useful diagnosis. All of the children here have ODD symptoms. They are almost always due to a bigger problem, and it sounds like he is either more than ADHD or else the medications are making him more than ADHD. ADHD/ODD often turns out to really be either childhood bipolar or a form of high functioning autism and the medications for ADHD aren't helpful. Often latent psychiatric disorders kick up near the teen years (mine did), but in the case of your son I keep looking at those medications and cringing. If I took those two medications in combo, I'd be a basket case (I have a form of bipolar). I would be looking for a fresh evaluation, and I'd choose a neuropsychologist. They really do a lot of testing--far more than other professionals. My son had twelve hours of testing before the doctor told me anything, and he was right on the money too. My son got better after that. It required weaning him from a truckload of medications that weren't helping him. They can spot things others missed. Good luck!
  5. DavidWH

    DavidWH New Member

    I am new to this site as well, and IT HELPS - these great folks can help allot hang out here when you can read lots of post it will help you and give you great ideas.

    I am simply repling to say that and to say when I read that the Dr's. put him on Concerta and Celexa I freaked out! in my humble opinion get him off of those ASAP - they tried those medications on my Son and they should NOT be used on a child this young... in my humble opinion and tons of reading any anti-depressent on a young one is very bad... My Son got very violent and very mean and nasty on those medications made things much worse, I got sued over some of his damage he did to an apt. - I told his Dr. I took him off those medications... and almost as soon as I did... he went back to just being his typical ADHD / ODD self...

    I am even afraid to take an anti-depressent... at 43 years old... but My Son will never do them again
  6. Marcie Mac

    Marcie Mac Just Plain Ole Tired

    In Ca, ADHD alone doesn't qualify you for any services, and ODD is really not recognized as a diagnosis. To get any help you will have to have the label of ED - emotional disturbance. And you will need to get a qualified diagnosis.

    Did you ask for an IEP ? And why would you want a 504 plan because really, it has no teeth to it - he may need to be under IDEA.

    I have so been there done that with my youngest - you will find more and more suspensions comming your way with his behavior as he gets older - at least with a proper IEP it can address behavior issues.

    I hate to even say this, but the schools are NOT your friends - they will not go out of their way to provide all of the services which may be needed, nor will they tell you all of the services which may be provided. They will do enough to lull you into a false sense of them doing the most they can, because to do otherwise may cost them money. They bank on you NOT knowing what you are and are not qualified for.

    I don't know if you are in No Ca or So, but there is a place called T.A.S.K in Orange County that I found to be a wonderful place as far as school issues go.

    First, though, you will need to get a full diagnosis on your son. Also, I would suggest that you start on a Parent Report - how to do that is in the Archives here.

  7. angelaincali

    angelaincali New Member

    1/ Who diagnosed him?
    2/ Are there any psychiatric, neurological or substance abuse issues on either side of his family tree?
    3/ How was his early development? Did he have any speech delays? Eye contact issues with strangers? Does he know how to interact appropriately with his peers?

    My difficult child was diagnosed at 5 by his pediatrician with ADHD. He has not been diagnosis'd with the ODD, that is still in the process. He has an appointment with his psychologist on 2 Jan. ODD will be my main topic. He has only been seeing a psychologist for about 6 months and in my opinion, I dont think he sees him enough. I dont feel they take this seriuosly enough. When I tell them things such as "my son told his teacher that I leave him alone everyday to fend for himself while I am working and dont come home until 10pm" they say things like "Well, kids like to tell stories". How do I get them to take me serious?

    I am in Nor Cal and have not heard of T.A.S.K.

    I will be making it a point to ask for a full psychiatric evaluation with a neuropsychologiist. My difficult child did not have any problems in his early developement except for the fact he did not like men at all. As far as family tree...my mother was a social drug user but she has passed and I dont know if she used while she was pregnant or not. My father was in Vietnam and had malaria and a number of other things along with agent orange so who knows what got passed on he has passed also. I had ADD and was on ritalin as a child but have been off for 20 years now. On my difficult child fathers side, difficult child's aunt is bipolar.

    My difficult child does not interact good at all with his peers, he is always in trouble for hitting, kicking, punching, calling mean inappropriate names. I dont trust him around other children. I have to watch him 24/7.

    I will get him off the Celexa and see how he does. His psychologist diagnosis'd him with depression and put him on Celexa.

    His BioFather doesnt think there is anything wrong with him. He is just a "boy" and that what boys do!

    The last 2 days have been wonderful. I think some days he is more lucid then others. I have not had to fight with him and he has been loving and getting along with easy child.

    Has anyone tried the no glutin or sugar diet? Does that help?
  8. SRL

    SRL Active Member

    Keep in mind that we are parents here--not doctors. You shouldn't discontinue any medications without checking with your doctors. Many medications have to be tapered and you need medical advice on that.

    Also, very important to be aware that the medication that one parent says was a disaster for their child may be the perfect medication for the next. medications are very individual in terms of how they work. Do your homework and read up on side effects. Talk with your doctor about options. Keep a journal of behaviors and triggers. But don't base your decisions on how a few parents said the medication worked in their child.
  9. flutterbee

    flutterbee Guest

    Regarding medications, it is a very individual issue. My difficult child takes lexapro which is just the newer version of celexa (one doctor called it a 'refined' version) and it's made all the difference in the world. Not only that, but one person may be able to tolerate celexa, but not zoloft (another SSRI antidepressant).

    Just because one person or parent has had a bad experience with a medication doesn't mean everyone will. What is a bad medication for one person may be a godsend to another. It's a lot of trial and error. Psychiatry is not an exact science, but they are learning more everyday.

    Further, you should never remove a child - or adult - from a medication without doctor supervision. If I quit taking lexapro cold turkey, I'd be sick - literally - for weeks. Most antidepressants require that you taper off of them.
  10. smallworld

    smallworld Moderator

    I agree 100 percent with SRL and Heather about not removing your child from any medications without consulting your doctors. When medications like Celexa are removed precipitously, withdrawal syndrome can occur. It results in flu-like symptoms that are very uncomfortable and can last for a few weeks. Not something you want to put your child through.

    What is not clear from your post is whether your son is better, worse or about the same since he started Celexa. In addition, has he been on Concerta for five years? Did you know that Concerta in and of itself can exacerbate anxiety and cause depression? Again, this is something you should talk over with your son's doctors.

    I wholeheartedly agree with the need for a new evaluation. You definitely need to know what is going on with your son so you can put the appropriate interventions into place.

    Welcome. I'm glad you found us.
  11. angelaincali

    angelaincali New Member

    Sorry, I didnt mean to make it sound like I was going to take him off them tonight. We have an appointment in Jan and I am going to discuss that with his therapist.
    I have not noticed any changes at all since he started taking the Celxa. I do know when he hasnt taken his Concerta though, he will literally be jumping off the walls if he doesnt have that concerta.
    His teacher says he is gradually getting more and more aggressive.
    I have been spending all my free time reading about how I can help my difficult child, that itself is a full time job.
    I am still very new to all of this. I dont know what is and is not important to post. I could go on for hours.
    I do have a few questions of my own though.... Do most kids that have ADHD/ODD lack all common sense and reason? Do they have days when they just seem very "normal"? Can they differ fact from fiction? Make up elaborate stories? My son says he hears people calling his name all the time. He has a few tics that he does and he can not, I mean literally can not keep his finger out of his nose. I know that sounds silly but it is very disrupting.
    I SOOOOOOOOO appreciate all of the great advice, it has already helped me, especially knowing I a not the only one going through this.
  12. smallworld

    smallworld Moderator

    Hearing voices (hallucinations) can occur as a result of taking either Concerta or Celexa, or it can be part of Bipolar Disorder, for example. Is this a new symptom (since Celexa) or something he's been experiencing for a long time? This is a symptom you need to report immediately to your son's doctor. He may need to be weaned (under doctor's supervision) from the medications to see if the voices stop.

    FWIW, I think you may be looking at something beyond ADHD/ODD. Is Peyton seeing a child psychiatrist? If not, I think you need to make an appointment with one immediately.
  13. sadlady

    sadlady New Member

    My adopted daughter will be 7 in two weeks. She has ADHD/ODD. She has a total disrespect for me and my husband. Sometimes I am very sorry I adopted her. It's not the way my life was to go. I am 53 years old, patience is limited, my stress level is beyond anything you could ever imagine, I have no family, no friends, and feeling depressed, lonely, etc. When I tell my daughter to do something it's a total nightmare. She doesn't go to sleep at night without taking medicine. She has even pulled all nighters while I slept. I've resorted to the old wooden spoon which does the trick for the moment. I need help - we need help. When does it end? Folks say she'll grow out of it - but I know differently. It's hopeless.
  14. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    Who is prescribing your son's medications? Psychologists are not able to prescribe, though many recommend certain medications for people.

    A child psychiatrist should be treating your child, and possibly a developmental pediatrician. I am not sure what the military provides regarding insurance, etc... but a pediatrician (regular doctor for kids) is probably not able to handle these issues.

    Violence is NEVER acceptable. If he is "lucid" some days, and nto others, it sounds like he has much more than ADHD and ODD. ODD is rarely a stand-alone diagnosis. And many(most?) of us have had ADHD be the initial diagnosis but found that it is not the correct one, or the only one.

    A neuropsychologist, neurologist (for the tics), and child psychiatrist or developmental pediatrician are going to be crucial to helping your family. Please read the book recommended, and if your child is having a violent rage, please call 911 or the police for help transporting him to a hospital. He may need hospitalization to help stabilize him. It seems many of our kids do. It is OK to ask the police to help with the violence, even for a 10 yr old, they may not do much, but you never know. Our school resource officer (cop that is at hte school all day) was a wonderful source of help, and even gave us a list of programs that I would never have found any where else.


  15. SRL

    SRL Active Member

    Celexa did increase my difficult child's aggression and hyperactivity gradually over a number of months so it is a possibilitity. We just wanted to make sure you didn't make any moves without the doctor.