Good Grief! Police sprayed 8 yr old with pepperspray in the classroom!

susiestar

Roll With It
I am with you, Marg. I still remember the year after Wiz went to the psychiatric hospital and that idiot sw convinced jess it was her fault that he went into her room while she was sound asleep and started to strangle her. It took a LOT of work from a LOT of people to undue that hag of a sw's vicious stupidity. She actually got jess to think it was her fault because she had joked/teased with him earlier that day.

There is a huge need for common sense and some people who THINK and realize that kids are not legos that stack together and get along no matter what you do to them.

Why not let the teachers just sit for a couple of minutes? Or figure out how to help the kid cope before he gets to that point. Intermittent Explosive disorder is not a diagnosis that seems very concrete, it really seems to be more of a description of behavior, like ODD.

I just don't understand where the common sense went in the adults who run our schools.
 

susiestar

Roll With It
This DOES make me wonder what would happen if one of our difficult children was in full rage and one of us used pepper spray on them? I know that for some reason there are parents who use hot sauce on the tongue as a punishment for something (don't understand this at all, but I have heard of parents who do it) and sometimes CPS says this is abuse.

Why is it that the school and police, who deal with our difficult children for very short periods of time compared to us, can pepper spray them but if one of us even hinted we wanted to, we would be in jail or at least in trouble with police and CPS.

So they cannot take ten-fifteen minutes to try to talk a child down but they CAN call out police and have the kid pepper sprayed?

But at home we have to deal with far worse threats, our kids taking knives, stealing, breaking every rule and threatening us but we cannot do ANYTHING and if they are at home the police often don't even bother to do anything if/when they get around to coming to "help"?

The world is just too nuts.
 
H

HaoZi

Guest
Someone I know here was telling me about another bi-polar kid (kid of a friend of hers) about the same age went out of control like that, too. She wouldn't calm down, couldn't be talked down, and ended up getting tased. Now, considering the source I'm getting it from, without seeing something in the paper I can't say I know for sure it happened (nice gal, but is a difficult child herself, so I take everything with some salt).
 

Lothlorien

Active Member
There were more than one officer and there were plenty of teachers and administrators present. You mean to tell me that not one of them or more couldn't have restrained this child? It appears that these people all need training from some of the orderlies at a children's psychiatric unit. That kid couldn't weigh more than 50 or 60 pounds. Give me a break.

Shari, I'm with you on this one....it's so close to home. I have had to call 911 four times over the past several weeks because of Missy's out of control behaviors. If an officer did that, I would never feel comfortable calling them again. I would be absolutely livid. I had expressed on another post how impressed I was with the one officer that did come to my house and how he handled things so well.

There is just no excuse for their poor decision to spray this kid.

I do agree that I think the mother's comments are not completely forthcoming, which is a shame, because if she was, people would believe her more and she might even get additional help, especially since she's been doing the media thing. Someone like Dr. Phil would take an interest in helping her out.
 

Star*

call 911........call 911
If there IS a good thing to come out of this at all? Maybe it is that since this has drawn national attention? Perhaps THIS police department will get training in how to deal with mentally ill people. Even if the child was not identified as mentally ill? There is training for dealing with people who are classified as such - and police, EMTs and even animal rescue personnel need to know how to deal with them appropriately to avoid incidents like this.

This way - no one NO ONE - gets hurt. I mean what if this kid had been a little older and schizophrenic? -----in a house? Taking a bubble bath? And they tazed him? Something to consider.

Maybe there will be something good come out of it - I'm sure someones hiney is over a burner.
 

DDD

Well-Known Member
Evidently his "new school" is a school that he has already attended in the past. I can't imagine blaming the Mom. How many times have we had fingers pointed at us because we had difficult child's and outsiders assumed we weren't parenting appropriately? Actually it sounds like one of those perplexing cases where the boy is fine away from school and goes off at school. When asked about it the Mom indicated that he had problems with "transitions". Don't most of our difficult child's? DDD
 

Suz

(the future) MRS. GERE
I don't know. As much as I want to agree with most of you, I guess I will play Devil's Advocate.

I saw the boy and his Mom interviewed on GMA. He admitted what he did, he admitted that he really did feel that way (that he wanted to kill his teacher). He used "Mother-f***" numerous times, apparently. In recalling the incident,his eyes were clear and he had the hint of a smile on his face. My impression was that the boy was enjoying the attention and didn't have one shred of remorse over his actions. None.

His Mom declared that school was the only place he had trouble. If you step back, can you say the same for your difficult child? Is Mom kidding herself?

He was in a special behavioral class. He would have to have a lot of history of misbehavior at school before he was placed there. Remember, "the least restrictive environment" is the law in school. It took Rob years in the school system to be placed in such a class..middle school in his case and trust me, he was no picnic for his teachers in elementary school...it took this little boy only a couple of years.

They also said that this was the third time the police had been called to the school for this particular boy.l

I don't know if this was excessive or not. I don't know if Mom is kidding herself or not. I do suspect that there is a lot more to this story than we have heard so far. I would not rush to judge anyone at this point.

Suz
 

Marguerite

Active Member
Suz, I'm not rushing to judge. The police and the school have said their piece and justified their actions. They are experienced at dealing with both the interactions and with the need to explain their response publicly. And yet they have not convinced me.

A small kid will smile when he feels insecure or anxious. It is an appeasement response designed to indicate to the observer, "I am not a threat." yes, he used bad language. yes, he threatened to kill a teacher and admits he really felt like he meant it. I remember times when I was a kid when I really, really wanted to kill the person who was obstructing me. I actually smashed a girl over the head with a brass handbell when I was 11 years old. She had been taunting me for a long time - months. At the time I hit her, I meant to hurt her. I literally saw red - my vision went red. A teacher saw it, I was in trouble. All day I expected to be expelled. I dreaded going home, I had been told my mother had been called and I knew she would be furious with me, despite provocation. But - nothing. I waited all evening for the phone call from my former friend's parents. Nothing. To this day I don't know why, because the girl did have to go home after I hit her. But there were also other times when I had been provoked and I know I really wanted to kill the other person. I yelled it and I meant it. Pepper spray would not have helped.

It is quite likely the kid only has problems at school, especially if the school are riding him hard and the mother's way of coping is to let him follow his own routine. I have seen this many times and it is not necessarily parental denial.

Even if this kid is a horror, a deliberately badly behaved monster who began acting violently and aggressively, I cannot see why two policemen and several teaches couldn't have found a less violent way to teach a child not to be violent and aggressive. Even if the knife had been real, the biggest fear would have been for the child's own safety, since all others could leave the room. it was not a hostage situation.

it seems to me that people hear, "I will kill you" from a child (and where does the child learn this? It's sad, but society teaches them it's a threat that makes people pay attention to them at last) and react as if it is a serious, genuine threat from someone large enough and strong enough to follow through.

Murder is planned and premeditated. Kids who shout, "I will kill you!" are acting on impulse and generally haven't a clue how to follow through, even if they are actually angry enough to ant to do it - for that instant. it passes. it does not last. And believe me - what follows, slams into the kid hard (I speak from personal experience) is guilt and depression so deep, so black, that it brings its own punishment. At such a time I would admit to guilt in anything and be sobbing any time I was on my own, but covering up when around other people. i often would run away and hide, often for hours. Up a tree, under the house, in the bush.

if I had been tasered or maced, I would have had two possible reactions:

1) mea culpa, I deserved that, because the guilt feelings are so strong I often felt I needed to be hurt physically as badly as I felt emotionally. Amazingly, I was never a cutter. But I did visualise it, often.

OR

2) How dare they? That was far worse than what I did. I don't care - I'm glad I did it now, they deserved it. And I'll do it again. I'll show them, the slimeballs (insert swear words of your choice).

And anything in between.

I do know that if we punish difficult child 3 too harshly, he will instantly go form borderline apologetic to justifiable rage and we have lost our chance to teach him how to behave better.

Marg
 

Lothlorien

Active Member
Suz, I see your point, but my husband also worked for a police department. They weren't even allowed to put a minor in a cell. Handcuffed only one had to a loop in a seat in the dispatch area. One kid spit repeatedly at the officers, cursed and said some really rotten stuff, kicked and everything...this was a 15 year old boy. No tazing...no pepper spray.

I realize there are two and sometimes three sides to a story. I still find no justification for the pepper spray. If the kid had a weapon (other than a gun), I could see, but there was none. My husband, who worked in law enforcement is appalled by their actions. Generally, we do take the wait and see approach, because the media is so willing to crucify the police. This time...nope. I think the only way that my mind will change is if this kid hurt the officers in the past, while trying to restrain him. Then, I might wonder. However, two big burly officers against 1 out of control 60 pound little boy.....I have to say, I just wonder what the guys in blue that work with them are thinking. Are they chiding these guys for letting an 8 year old get to them?

Anyway, being that I've had to call for assistance with Missy this past month (several times) the worst part now is that parent, like me, who lives in their town, is now scared to death to call 911 when their child is out of control, because they are afraid of what the cop might do. I, like Shari, am chilled to the bone over this. My situation is somewhat analogous to this one, so it strikes a feral nerve in me.
 

Suz

(the future) MRS. GERE
Loth, he had a weapon. It was a broken chair leg or something wooden that he was waving around.

I figured when I posted my lack of outrage that it would probably outrage those of you who are outraged. I didn't post to start a fight, only to express the opinion that I am reserving judgment. I'm not going to argue with you or Marg or anyone else. You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine.

:)

Suz
 

DDD

Well-Known Member
IF the representation on tv was correct the boy "slowly" lowered the piece of wood and placed it on the floor before he was sprayed. That reminds me of the film clips and photos that we often see on television and the net where previously raging adults do as instructed and then WHAMMO they get aggressively taken down. Not to make light of a subject I take very seriously but when I watch two or more policemen yelling simulataneous instructions to an adult suspect...I often wonder if I could comprehend the instructions. "Lay on the ground" "put your hands on your head" "put your hands behind your back"...if I were in a crisis I don't think I could figure out which one to do first! DDD

PS: As I shared with Board about three years ago the local police cuffed, transported, booked and published a picture of a little elementary school girl who had a rage in a classroom. Same
reaction from me. WTH!
 

AnnieO

Shooting from the Hip
I think - from what I've seen here - that there are a lot of differing points of view, and I happen to agree with almost everyone, to a point.

Fact of the matter is... We just don't know enough about the story. I would be over the top angry - outrage doesn't even begin to touch how I would feel - if someone used pepper spray on my kids - but - there have been times I wished I had something similar to stop them. Perhaps this is hypocritical. Perhaps not.

Tasering does not bother me as much. I cannot explain why, the only thing about it that bothers me is the barbs.

Still, with the limited information available to me, I have a hard time figuring out why, if my slender husband could take down a raging teen that he barely outweighs without leaving a single mark, that adult police could not control an 8-y.o.
 

Star*

call 911........call 911
I am now the proud OWNER of a taser...know how? A little girl that 'liked' Dude stunned him with one she bought at a flea market - twice - once from behind and again while he was laying on the ground.

If it had not been for his buddies keeping them apart, and Dude wrestling that stupid thing off of her? I would hate to think what damage that idiot would have inflicted on other people. She was still laughing when his buddies picked him up shaking. Her own Mother didn't even think it was that bad. So since it wasn't such a horrible thing? We kept the taser and invited them to call the police and report us for keeping it. We'd in kind report then, how we obtained it and from whom.

And FYI - If you've ever been hit with one? It would bother you, and you would be very VERY conscious of having it done again. I've been hit with pepper spray AND taser. Don't care to go through either ever again.
 

AnnieO

Shooting from the Hip
husband says pepper spray is far worse, in his opinion - and yes, he has been tasered, in academy.

I would really prefer to avoid both...
 

Marguerite

Active Member
Marg, I respect your opinion and hope that you respect mine.

Suz

Of course, Suz. Goes without saying.

I will point out, though (not just for you Suz, but for everyone) that there are cultural differences between us here. Whether it's good or not, I can't say. But our Aussie police have only just been issued with tasers in NSW (about a year ago or so) and otherwise, they are a prohibited weapon. Because of our stricter weapons laws to you guys, the chance of something like this happening is reduced here. Not the police response so much, but the chance of someone (especially a small kid) having anything that would constitute a weapon. it does happen, we have stabbings in schools, but it's newsworthy here if a kid brings a knife to school. As for a gun - I can't remember the last time a kid brought a gun to school. Years. Longer. Just about te only people to have guns here are farmers, security guards or criminals. And because gun crime is so rare, it's a lot easier for our police to trace weapons. The haystacks are smaller.

But anyone selling a taser to a kid, or the parents of that kid, would be in HUGE trouble here.

When the NSW police minister was trying to 'sell' us on the idea of arming our cops with tasers, he set up a demonstration in NSW Parliament House. This was on the news etc but actually was itself against the law - Parliament House is supposed to be a weapons-free zone, and to discharge a taser was the same as discharging a gun, as far as our laws are concerned.

So you can see that my take on the use of force against a minor is likely to be far more conservative, because here the picture is different.

On that front - there was a story on Aussie media a week or so ago, an 'inside scoop' about Oprah in Australia. Apparently even while she was smiling broadly and yelling, "I LOVE AUSTRALIA!!" her eyes were scanning this way and that for 'crazies'. The thing is - we don't have them here, not in these sort of circumstances. But it's a cultural thing again. It really takes a lot for people who come here to realise just how safe Aussie crowds are. We do have hassles with papparazzi, but your average Aussie mob is actually very peaceful and safe. We have frequent large crowd events with few arrests. Mardi Gras; NYE - we used to have problems, but we're really good at putting these on with minimal hassles these days. You really can bring your family (with little kids) out to a large night-time crowd event and feel safe.

So given our environment is different, I'm likely to have a stronger, and different, view to a lot of you in matters like this.

But Suz - no offence taken, or intended. OK? It's important for either of us to feel free to express differing opinions.

Marg
 
Last edited:
H

HaoZi

Guest
her eyes were scanning this way and that for 'crazies'.

That's a learned response that becomes instinct, she does live in Chicago. You'd get the same reaction with anyone who's lived in a major city in the U.S.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
Very sad. I live in a village where we greet everyone we see including total strangers (we get a lot of tourists) and leave our cars and houses unlocked when we go out. I can go for a walk any time day or night, alone, and know I am perfectly safe. This is not unusual for us. We do have our 'crazies' - they are usually hoboes who talk to themselves and sleep on the street. I talk to them sometimes too. But with the level of mutual threat low, it's easier for trust to continue mutually.

Suspicion and nervousness breeds more of the same, sadly.

Marg
 
Top