Guns. Woken up to 2 news stories here in the UK.

Discussion in 'The Watercooler' started by nlj, Jul 23, 2015.

  1. nlj

    nlj Well-Known Member


    I've woken up to two news stories here in the UK:

    Your President Obama speaking of his frustration with being unable to pass "common sense gun laws"

    And on the same news page this:

    Yet another tragedy.

    I'm not saying that the UK is full of only peaceful law-abiding citizens, far from it, but we don't have guns generally. I'd welcome your views. It's difficult for us to understand the culture of guns here.
  2. pasajes4

    pasajes4 Well-Known Member

    It is a contentious subject in the states." The right to keep and bear arms.." is guaranteed by our constitution. I personally will not keep weapons of any kind in my home. I have a mentally ill child and feel that it could be a recipe for disaster. There are others on this board who probably feel just as strongly about keeping a gun for protection.
  3. Tanya M

    Tanya M Living with an attitude of gratitude Staff Member

    The 2nd Amendment gives us (American's) the right to bear arms. Unfortunately we have to many citizens that choose to live outside the boundaries of our laws. I do believe in certain cases it's mental illness but not all. The problem with having "gun laws" is it will not stop the criminals from getting guns. We have drug laws but it doesn't stop an addict from getting drugs.
    It's a Pandora's Box, once it's opened it's next to impossible to put things back in it.
    I believe in our constitution, however I doubt that our forefathers who wrote it did not expect the average citizen to have an assault type weapon.
  4. PatriotsGirl

    PatriotsGirl Well-Known Member

    I have a permit to carry and I do have guns in my home. They are locked in a digital combination gun safe and I pray that I never have to use them!! We have daylight home invasions here. If it comes down to some criminal or my family, the criminal is not going to win...
  5. Lil

    Lil Well-Known Member

    The Constitution does give the right to bear arms, but actually, the amendment reads, "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." I don't think the founding father's expected every nutcase to be able to buy an Uzi. The intent was that the States could maintain their independence from tyranny by calling on the people for defense. Unfortunately, it's been stretched beyond its intent.

    That being said, I'm not against responsible gun ownership. I grew up in the country and my family hunted. I've fired a gun (target) and am actually pretty good at it. Jabber (former Marine) hunts and owns guns and he's always kept a loaded handgun in the home. I was fortunate in that our son never showed any interest in guns to speak of. I doubt he knew where it was kept or cared. If he had, there would have been issues with keeping it loaded.

    But I do believe in regulation. I don't think there's anything wrong with having to register weapons and I think the criminal law should be very strict - Use a gun during a crime and you go to jail for double the original sentence, no probation, no parole, period. I think our gun laws regarding their USE as opposed to their ownership are too weak.

    Do I think it would be better if every handgun suddenly disappeared? Yes. But it is not going to happen. Making them illegal would never work. As they say, criminals aren't going to obey gun laws. And the fact is the USA is a HUGE country (England is about the size of Texas and New Mexico put together - two of our 50) and we've always had guns. They'll never effectively be able to ban guns in this country for that reason.
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  6. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    It's interesting that the "northern half" of North America has such a different culture concerning guns. We have them too - no question. We're the descendants of fur traders, pioneers, settlers - all of whom had to have guns to survive. It's "part of who we are". But Canada does have some level of controls, and while we have a small gun lobby, it isn't like in the States. Canada came into being by evolution - the States, by revolution. The different in culture is huge.
    • Informative Informative x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  7. AppleCori

    AppleCori Well-Known Member

    Unfortunately, mental illness plays a large part in many of these recent high-profile shootings.

    I don't know how the latest theater shooter got the gun, but he did have a background of mental illness and was a 'drifter' to quote local news.

    There are laws in most states disallowing the mentally ill from purchasing guns, but not sure how well the laws can be enforced, since people have a right to have their medical records private. I don't have any answers.

    Drugs and drug-related gang activity also account for a large percentage of the gun violence. Most of these guns are obtained illegally.

    Many of the recent high-profile shooters have drug/alcohol problems as well.

    My hubby and X both grew up with guns, as did I. I do not have a problem with law-abiding citizens owning guns.

    I did get rid of X's guns when he started having mental problems, though. I don't think he would ever be a danger, but I wasn't comfortable in that situation.
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    • List
  8. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Not all Americans own guns or hunt. We don't, never have. I prefer not to own one. As far as I'm concerned Average Joe can't shoot well enough to kill a criminal who is armed and I don't want to risk that.

    I can't see having a loaded gun for any reason. I feel it's a risk. And unless it's loaded, you have to load it first. I think many tragedies happened, not because of mental illness, but because people drink and weld guns at the same time (sane people) and because wanna-be rambos kill people, like Tyrone Martin's perpetrator who I think was guilty and had no right to c hase after t he young man. JMO. As for the sane with alcohol and guns, I am in a big hunting area and we see hunters all the time sitting off the roads drinking and looking for deer to kill. Drinking plus hunting is a very bad combination. There have been a lot of accidents...always are. Usually they tend to have these accidents with each other, not with others.

    People like me stay away from anyone on the side of the road with a gun. Not my circus, not my monkey. I don't know you. I'll meet you when you put the gun away.

    I understand the history of our country, but don't think our forefathers could have guessed would have gotten so out of control that some people I have talked to claim t o almost own an artillery of weapons because they are afraid t he government will come knocking on the door asking for them to give up their freedom. Yes, I've heard this.

    I prefer my own world, which I feel is safer the way it is.

    Having said that, Jumper is going into Criminal Justice. I am sure sh e will know how to shoot a gun very well. However, I'm equally as sure she is well balanced enough not to just shoot it to be powerful and she is not mentally ill. I'm proud of her career choice.

    In general, if sane people want to own guns and feel protected by having them, I'm good with it. It really isn't any of my business. Most gun owners ARE responsible ones. Id on't think about getting shot while I'm out and about.
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    • List
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2015
  9. Jabberwockey

    Jabberwockey Well-Known Member

    Which is exactly why my pistol is always loaded. I'm confident in my ability to successfully defend myself and my family against an armed intruder. That being said, I'm probably not the norm either. Having a background in the military, in corrections, and having been hunting most of my life has prepared me to be much more confident in my skills and abilities than most. The problem is that many gun owners think the same way when it simply isn't true.

    The problem with the laws that they are trying to enact is that they are all or nothing. As Lil said, there is no way the government will EVER get all the guns out of this country even if they make them illegal. I have no problem with having to register my weapons. I have no problem with the fact that nobody NEEDS to own an automatic weapon. I have a problem with the attempted ban of "assault weapons" when the only thing that defines "assault weapon" is that it looks intimidating. Having been shot at (not because of work) and having been in various violent situations due to my employment I can say with absolute certainty that having ANY weapon pointed at me, including a knife, is intimidating.

    Sorry, will get off the soap box now. In a nutshell, I have no problem with reasonable gun laws that aren't overly restrictive without a reason. Sorry folks but guns do not kill people, people do. Guns are just some of the newest tools in the toolbox to get the job done. Not that I'd ever do it, but I can guarantee that I could go into a movie theater with a knife and wrack up a suitably shocking number of kills to make the national news except they probably wouldn't pick up the story because I didn't use a gun.

    Ok, REALLY off the soap box now!
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    • List
  10. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    Ummm... not likely. People are more likely to intervene against a person with a knife, than with a gun, especially if there is more than one who can coordinate an attack on the person with a knife. With a gun... any attempt to intervene automatically puts your own life at risk.

    We have all kinds of crazies up here. Who pull all sorts of stunts. We might get quite a number of injured people, but it's rare. Hard to get multiple murders pulled off quickly without a gun - and we have fewer gun-toting crazies (proportionately).
    • Like Like x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    • List
  11. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Agree with IC. There wouldn't be any mass killings with a knife. They are easier to take away and don't have bullets that fly far away. No comparison.

    My husband was in the military for ten years and doesn't feel the need for a gun in our house. In fact he thinks most who own guns would shoot their own toes off in self-defense.
    • Like Like x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    • List
  12. Jabberwockey

    Jabberwockey Well-Known Member

    I understand this, but I could have a half a dozen down before anyone realized that there was an attack. And for the record, someone with a knife versus someone with a gun can win much easier than you would think depending on the distance. We have a training video that shows an officer and a knife wielding assailant and the officer needs 21 feet minimum distance to even have a chance of bringing his gun into play. Even my fat butt can cover 21 feet easily in two to three seconds.

    Something to remember about the knife is that its silent, unless the victim is able to make noise. Guns immediately draw attention and are recognizable. Even if people start making a ruckus around the knife wielder, nobody outside the immediate area will know what's going on. Shoot a gun and the whole theater knows what's up!
  13. Jabberwockey

    Jabberwockey Well-Known Member

    I would laugh at this if it weren't the truth!
  14. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Heh. Well that's part of the problem. You can't just buy a gun. You have to bother to learn to shoot well.

    I am five foot tall and 115 lbs. If I tried to stab anyone chances are I'd get pinned down right away, You must be a big man to be able to kill many with a knife.

    A gun is the great equalizer of homicide. As small as I am, if I owned a gun and knew how to shoot it (which I don't) l could kill more people than you could with your knife if I had the right gun.

    Knives are peanuts beside guns. Also men tend to commit most of their suicides by gun and it's a pretty effective method. Dangerous for male depressed children in my eyes.

    I'm fine being gun free and don't get the love of guns some people have in the u.s. And I didn't like John Wayne or Clint Eastwood movies either :)
  15. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    Why would no one realize that you were stabbing people to death? Why do you feel that it is so easy to stab someone to death? Do you really believe that someone can silently kill six people in a crowded theater before someone notices? Let's say the person does cause immediate and therefore silent death by slashing the throat or stabbing someone directly in the heart - not an easy task - you don't think that the person next to the first or second victim isn't going to make a fuss when they're splattered with the gore?

    Don't be absurd.
  16. Jabberwockey

    Jabberwockey Well-Known Member

    Not trying to be absurd and realistically I couldn't do that being too slow and not terribly skilled with a knife. I've met quite a few offenders over the years who would be capable of doing this though. Yes, people would raise an alarm once they realized it was blood, not soda splashing on them. Yes, people are more likely to charge someone with a knife versus a gun and overpower them. The point I'm trying to make is that a gun is only as dangerous as the individual holding it.
  17. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    Not quite.
    Your chances of deadly carnage are higher with a gun.

    Canada is familiar with knife incidents - no they don't make headline news, because while there may be a number of people affected, most are injuries not deaths.

    A knife isn't always a weapon - it's definitely only as dangerous as the individual holding it. A gun... you don't have to be very good, and you can still kill 10 people out of a couple of hundred in a crowd. A gun puts the capability of headline-grabbing carnage into the hands of more people.
  18. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    And a little kid can get ahold of a loaded gun and kill somebody or himself. Unlikely with a knife. I just never could see the comparison making any sense.
  19. MyFriendKita

    MyFriendKita Member

  20. MyFriendKita

    MyFriendKita Member