Guns. Woken up to 2 news stories here in the UK.

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
Nobody needs a concealed weapon. If you're going to have a weapon, it needs to be out in the open. First, because visibility is part of the "safety factor" that people love to go on about. And second, because it's only fair - and most people in western democracies expect some degree of level playing field.

There isn't any practical way to make two different sets of laws, but there are two totally different needs - yes, even up here in Canada. City vs. country, urban vs. rural. You don't need a raft of guns - or knives, or any other weapon - in the city. It's in the city that you tend to get the mass-murder attempts, because that's where masses of people are. In the city, some level of gun control makes sense. In the country? We depend on our guns (yes, even in Canada). Coyotes. Rampaging moose. And a few other varmints. But in the country, we KNOW everybody. We know who has guns, we know who hunts, we know who fights with his wife... and we know that YOU are not one of US - which automatically makes us wary. We have a degree of safety in the country that can never happen in the city.

Return to city-states, and let the rest of us live in peace? (not gonna happen but... )
 

MyFriendKita

Active Member
I never said I preferred either one. I never even said I owned either one. Someone posted that knives can't be used to kill mass victims and I simply pointed out that yes they can. Then a few posters kept insisting the victim count would be lower in a knife attack. Who cares? And if the answer to gun violence is simply to disarm all of the bad guys I think we should do that asap.
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
if the answer to gun violence is simply to disarm all of the bad guys I think we should do that asap
The problem isn't "just" the guns.
It's the whole "gun culture" that seems to exist in the US. Even in rural Canada, we don't have that kind of culture. But the culture around guns in the US, makes the guns even more dangerous.

Too bad we can't just get rid of the "gun culture". But that would be harder than getting rid of the guns.
 

Lil

Well-Known Member
I'm kind of tired of the debate here, which really is going nowhere, so I'm only going to repeat a point I made earlier. Making guns (even handguns) illegal in the US is never going to happen for a simple reason. Too many people feel that the 2nd amendment means they are allowed to own any gun they choose and fear government overreach. I'm NOT one of them. If the government said, "Turn in your handguns." we'd turn in our handgun. I might feel differently about the hunting rifle and shotgun unless that amendment is repealed by popular vote. But Jabber and I aren't your average gun owners. There are far too many people who will simply never turn in their guns...and not just the bad guys but people who would never commit a crime in any other situation. I know many myself. They are good people, but feel strongly about their ability to keep and bear arms. And when they don't turn them in, then what? Send in police or soldiers against our own citizens?

By all means, take the guns from the bad guys. Make the criminal gun laws stronger. Make any new purchases registered. Make it a crime to not report stolen weapons immediately. Require mental health disclosures to those buying weapons.

But making gun ownership illegal? Even just handguns? Not going to work. Frankly, I believe it would lead to open revolt.

Off my soapbox and out of the discussion.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Well, no, it isn't going to happen soon. I wouldn't say forever. There are many things we thought would never happen that have happened...gay marriage being the latest. I truly, as a child, never thought it would be legal in our lifetime. And I know the Second Amendment isn't going anywhere soon. The gun lobby is very strong.

But that doesn't mean gun ownership is good or that it is making our country better. I don't think it is. Others do. That was the question, I think, not if it will be banned. As one who supported gay marriage very much, I have hope that there will be many changes for our grandchildren and great-grandchildren and beyond that we can't even imagine. And I'm sure things we can't imagine today could happen tomorrow.

Right now, all I can do is not watch the news (I don't anymore) and not keep a gun (I don't and have never been robbed or attacked). So I'm going to climb back into my hole and agree that guns won't go anywhere soon. And that's all any of us know for now, plus we have our opinions. Neither me nor any of my kids ever carried any weapon, even a pocketknife. My husband does have a pocketknife. He opens envelopes with it. He quit guns after quitting the military.
 

AppleCori

Well-Known Member
nlj--

If you are still there--

As to your question-- my hubby and I both grew up on farms in rural farming communities where guns are very common. Guns are a tool that is used, one of many necessary implements, and we were taught to use them and to use them safely. I know many people who use guns but few who 'love' guns.
 

susiestar

Roll With It
I actually find this fascinating. I strongly believe that ALL children should learn gun safety. NOT so they know how to shoot, but so they know what to do if they run across a gun in someone's home. I was 11 when I took a gun away from my friend's older brother, broke it down and refused to give it back. I told their dad he was being an idiot for storing it outside a locked gun safe when he had his own kids and half the neighborhood tramping through his house unsupervised while he and his wife were out shopping or whatever (his wife didn't work, but there was rarely anyone home with their kids from the time their oldest was about 9). He was offended, but when he realized that EVERY kid under 15 knew where that gun was, and that the older kids HAD gotten his kids to let them come in and 'borrow' the gun with-o telling anyone, he turned really really pale. He got even more pale when he realized he had no idea how to put his gun back together but I did, and his 9yo did, and I didn't teach his kids how to do it, another kid did.

I think parents should have to take their kids through gun safety courses and prove they have gun safes and trigger locks or they should not be able to have guns in the house with their kids.

I grew up with guns. Have had the safety classes as a kid, also spent quite a lot of time target shooting as a kid. I don't have a gun now. Before I ever own another one, I will take another safety class because it has been way too many years since I shot or handled a gun or took a class. I have chosen not to have guns in my home because I don't trust myself. I own guns that my grandfather left me. I have chosen to not have them in my possession because first I had young children and could not afford the level of gun safe that I felt was needed. When my father offered to buy or make a gun safe for me, I declined an chose to not have guns because I don't trust myself. When my migraines get really bad, I get very tempted to remove part of my head. I know it isn't rational, but I want the part that hurts to go away NOW and I do not trust myself not to use a gun or power saw not to remove it. Yes, power saw. When we bought a saw it was one with a removable battery that takes hours to charge and it is not kept charged even though you have to replace the battery more often. This is because otherwise I just might use it to end a migraine. After a few days of excruciating pain, that even a trip to the ER only stops for a couple of hours, I become less than rational. I think most people would with that level of pain, and mine can last from days to weeks or more. So we don't have guns in the house. I also have a husband who is not interested in guns, and would not take a safety class, and that is another reason I won't have a gun in the house.

Of course if I want a gun and have a good reason, my dad is a gun nut. He was a nationally ranked sharp shooter in college (competed on a national level for his university rifle team). He had quite a few, and after he retired he started acquiring more of them. He made sure we did not mess with them at home and we knew how to not hurt ourselves if we came across one at a friend's house. I cannot count how many guns I saw at friends' houses - either their parents or older siblings. I was the only one I knew, other than my brother and one cousin, who had a gun safety class. I have a different cousin who lost an eye and was lucky that he only lost an eye. He and some friends found a gun under a bed at a party. He got shot with it. Until then,his mom INSISTED that gun safety classes for kids were the worst thing ever. She sure changed that tune, and all 3 of his brothers got gun safety classes that same summer. He got one the next fall because he was still recovering and adjusting that summer.

We actually held off on gun safety for my kids. First because we all felt that Wiz being comfortable with guns was a bad idea, and Wiz agreed and still wants nothing to do with guns. Jess hasn't had gun safety classes because of her health issues. thank you has asked to put them off until next year and we allowed that. I would have pushed it if we had guns in the house, except with Wiz.

I don't feel I can make the choice for the general public. I think assault rifles are not something people need. I have heard people argue that they use them for hunting, but not anyone who has actually tried to eat the meat they shot with one. Well, I heard one guy talk about it, but he was griping about pulling so many bullets out that much of the meat was unusable and the hide was decimated. I think assault rifles are not good for hunting anything but people and that isn't something I am interested in. I do think more in depth checks of medical records should be done if you want to purchase a gun, but I doubt it will happen in the near future.

But this is all just my opinion and experience.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I am not convinced children should learn about guns at all other than that they are off limits, like alcohol and other dangerous substances. Too much chance of an accident. I can't imagine allowing my own child to even get interested in a gun. I would not want a child to know how to shoot a gun and don't believe a developing child can comprehend the concept of gun safety. We teach kids drug safety and they still use drugs. Their minds are still being formed. I especially feel it is foolish if you child is disturbed. I give you Adam Lanza. I would have preferred Adam done his deed with a knife. It would have cost less lives. Anyway...

Yes, we have had toy guns and waterguns. I'm not THAT crazy over the issue, but I don't believe guns and kids mix. In our neck of the woods, during hunting season, both locals and people from other states come here to hunt. Now this is just hunting. I am not against hunting for sport, but I do think alcohol should be banned if you are hunting.

It never fails...ever....that some idiot with alcohol and a rifle gots shot or shoots somebody a nd at times it is children or teens hunting with their families and, yes, often they die.

I'm glad where I live you really don't see people holding guns. I think if I visited a place where people had guns in holsters, I would not want to stay there...

I think it would be safer to kill deer with a knife. If knives kill just as much as guns, why not use knives or, better yet, bow and arrow, to hunt? See my point? They don't kill as well, as accurately or from as far a distance.

One last thought. I wonder how many of those gang members of all races and creeds and mentally ill folks who bought a gun "hot" on the street yet may have kids and a bad temper, would go to a gun safety class.

That's the problem. Well, one of them. Most people with guns have no idea how to use them and some are just looking for a fight...an excuse to use them. Trayvon Martin.

These types of things are just crazy and specific to our country. Nobody wants to copy us. Can't blame them.

JMO (shrug)

don't hurt me now!!!!
 
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AppleCori

Well-Known Member
SWOT--

Most states prohibit alcohol use when hunting. Probably all of them do.

Many states also prohibit hunting from your vehicle unless you have a special dispensation as a disabled person.

Hunting is highly regulated and not a free-for-all, even on one's own property.

If you see people hunting with alcohol, please turn them in to your local game warden immediately.!

People are responsible to know and abide by the laws.
 

AppleCori

Well-Known Member
I really don't think most people with guns 'don't know how to use them'.

Those of us who grew up with guns were taught how to use them the same way that we all teach our kids various life skills.

I doubt many people go out and buy guns and then don't bother to learn to use them properly!
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
I doubt many people go out and buy guns and then don't bother to learn to use them properly!
For people living in the country, I'd agree with you. Even those who don't have the formal gun safety course have been given the lifestyle equivalent - like my cousins got starting at age 6 with BB guns on the farm.

Living in the city? you might be surprised how many "want a gun for safety" but don't really know how to use it, and certainly don't practice.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Insane, that really isn't true. A lot of people just go target shooting a few times and then buy a gun, as if they will be as good a shot as the person they are trying to kill. It's a scary situation.

Insane, there are many cities in the United States, including several areas of Chicago where I once lived, where it's dangerous to walk around even in the daytime. I fostered two brothers who lived with Grandma and were not allowed to play outisde, except on her balconey, and only before 4:00pm. Kids were shot and killed on the way to school by getting in the way of gangbangers.

These boys told me they'd seen a few bodies on the ground on the way to school and they seemed kind of immune to it. Creepy.

These kids grow up in war zones due to gunfire.

Also kids and adults sometimes have to take cover in their own apartments due to gunfire between gangs that goes through windows. This happens.

Could a knife do that?

No, a knife is an up close and personal crime. That's why the silly knife comparison is...well...silly.

None of the people on this site, defending the right for anyone to own a gun, lives in these areas of our country, but there are a lot of them. Sonic would have grown up in a neighborhood like that if he hadn't been put up for adoption and come to us. Scares me to think about it, I love him so much.
 
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Jabberwockey

Well-Known Member
I am not convinced children should learn about guns at all other than that they are off limits, like alcohol and other dangerous substances.

I tend to agree with you on this SWOT. Granted, it depends on the child. My father was teaching me gun safety from an early age. Granted, at that point in my life we lived on a farm. I never considered teaching our son about guns myself for several reasons. Living in town with no place to actually go hunting it seemed kind of pointless. Besides, even at an early age I didn't feel that his obsessiveness and firearms would be a good mixture. Point is, it really depends on the child. Unfortunately, its the parents who make this decision and not all of them are capable of making a reasonable decision on this issue.

I am not against hunting for sport, but I do think alcohol should be banned if you are hunting.

I would say its a fair bet that alcohol while hunting is illegal in every state, not that everyone obeys that law. Honestly, I'd take this a step further and anytime you have an encounter with police for any reason and you have a weapon in your possession (in your vehicle or you are going into or coming out of the woods), you either submit to a breathalyzer or lose your right to carry firearms. Same for drugs. In order to be a responsible gun owner, you must first be responsible.

I think it would be safer to kill deer with a knife. If knives kill just as much as guns, why not use knives or, better yet, bow and arrow, to hunt? See my point? They don't kill as well, as accurately or from as far a distance.

Being a hunter, I can assure you that deer are entirely too skittish to get close enough to hunt with a knife. I also own bows and as soon as we have property I plan to start bow hunting for deer. I tend to stay away from hunting on state land because of bad experiences growing up. Again, it was about people who had no business, even though they had the right, to be in the woods with a weapon. Won't make this long, but one of the common things that happened were people checking in dogs that they had killed because they didn't even bother to learn what the animal that they were hunting looked like. And don't get me started on "sound shots"!!

One last thought. I wonder how many of those gang members of all races and creeds and mentally ill folks who bought a gun "hot" on the street yet may have kids and a bad temper, would go to a gun safety class.

That's the problem. Well, one of them. Most people with guns have no idea how to use them and some are just looking for a fight...an excuse to use them. Trayvon Martin.

And unfortunately, these are the people who are getting bad press for being idiots and making it difficult on responsible firearms owners. There is no easy solution for this issue, nothing that will resolve it to the satisfaction of both sides. To those who are adamantly opposed to gun ownership, believe it or not, I understand and don't necessarily disagree with your arguments. I do disagree with punishing everybody due to the actions of a minority.
 

Jabberwockey

Well-Known Member
I doubt many people go out and buy guns and then don't bother to learn to use them properly!

I could tell some stories about people who did just this! Part of the problem is, firearms safety MUST be relearned from time to time, especially for those who own but haven't handled guns in a while.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Being a hunter, I can assure you that deer are entirely too skittish to get close enough to hunt with a knife.
Exactly. Guns have a huge advantage in killing over knives. It's distance. This is what I mean. They are far more dangerous. It is easier to elude a knife and if you are not close up to the person, throwing the knife won't kill anyone. The lure of the gun is it's powerful ability to kill, for whatever reason. You can stand on a roof and shoot people walking down below. This happened in a college town, I think in Texas.

This is why other countries realize that you can't stop every murder, but guns accelerate the amount of people who can be killed. That's why no other country wants our guns (the civilians dont) and no other government is crazy enough to implement our gun laws.
 

Jabberwockey

Well-Known Member
Exactly. Guns have a huge advantage in killing over knives. It's distance. This is what I mean.

I'm sorry I ever even brought up knives. I was never trying to advocate one over the other as to how dangerous or effective they were. The point I was trying to make was that someone could kill double the people with a knife as one of the recent mass shootings and it probably wouldn't make the headlines simply because it wasn't done with a gun. The vehemence in this discussion proves that its a touchy subject, especially in America. As has been stated before, killers will find a way to kill.

That being said, I would like to remind you that I have no problem whatsoever with stricter gun laws. I agree that the reason that the second amendment was placed in the constitution is pretty much a moot point in this day and age. No amount of civilians with guns will be able to withstand a tank or artillery if a corrupt government gains...leverage?, over the military to force them or trick them into being used against the American people. I see no need for anyone to own a 20 or more round clip for their weapon. If you're hunting and it takes that many bullets to get the job done, go back to the range first. You are in DIRE need of practice. I own a pistol. I didn't purchase it for home protection, I purchased it as a backup for hunting. I would have an issue with the government taking my pistol from me but if the did it properly, I would go along with it.

I consider myself to be a responsible gun owner. I acknowledge that not every gun owner is. How do you take the guns away from irresponsible owners? I have no idea. Should mine be taken from me because someone else made a mistake? No.
 

Tanya M

Living with an attitude of gratitude
Staff member
Guns and knives don't kill people, they are both merely an instrument used by someone who is intent on killing or maiming another. Even if there were no guns if someone is intent on killing 1,10, or 100 people they will find a way. The Oklahoma City bombing and 9-11 attest to that.

I do however think we could have better laws in place where guns are concerned. Not only should there be a background check but how about a psychological evaluation and once you pass those you then have to take a gun safety course that is not just reading and writing but one that teaches you how to properly use a gun, take it apart, clean it and put it back together and all of these the applicant should have to pay for. Of course with all this in place you are still going to have people who purchase a guns illegally.

Better gun laws may help but they are not the answer.

The root cause of much of this comes down to a societal level. Throughout our cities there are broken communities where gangs run rampant. In Chicago alone 80% of homicides are gang related. There is a breakdown of the family and along with that severe poverty. Generational families living on welfare. It's within these types of demographics where the majority of gun violence will be found.

There is no incentive for people to get off welfare (our government is the biggest enabler) These families get stuck in a cycle of degradation and for many the only future they see is joining a gang and with that comes drugs and violence.

Then you have people who suffer from mental illness. It is not easy to find help for the mentally ill.

I would like to see our government focus more on the above mentioned issues than just making more gun laws.

Our country's problems need to be met and dealt with at the root level. More laws and rules are only a band aid.
 
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