He masturbates openly in school...we can't stop him.

[TerryJ2]

Susiestar, that's a great explanation. The operative word is "conscious," in Conscious Discipline. This kid is not being made aware of what he is doing and he is not conscious of it. He is stimming and wasting time, to say the least. They aren't even following their own rules.

 

[DaisyFace]

This is state funded and the parents are in the poverty level. Many are still teenagers. They don't know what conscious discipline is, although the school tries to teach it to the parents (honest!). Many of the families are involved in social services.

And THERE'S the problems right there. State-funded for poverty-stricken families....so they want to do as little ACTION as possible, and instead put the onus on parents and parenting.

 

[susiestar]

These kids would probably be better off if they were raised by wolves. Wolves would tolerate some behaviors but would at least set some boundaries.

I would LOVE to see a reporter get some hidden nanny cam video of this going on and then ask some questions. Talk about the HUGE uproar that would cause. I would be the kind of parent to send a nanny cam in a teddy bear with a kid if I could. This place is nuts, a TOTAL abuse of public funds, a TOTAL abdication of responsibility by the adults (not MWM but those who insist on this ridiculous policy), and a cruelty to the children and their families.

Programs like this are one reason that every time we go to get help for a difficult child we get parenting classes - those who deal with kids later figure that this is how we parent because there ARE programs like this out there. So it is very very hard to tell the difference between a true difficult child and a child who is easy child but was in this environment during the early years and the parents have NO clue how to turn it around. This program makes as much sense to me as parents who say things like, "You don't want to color on the walls, Jimmie." in a sweet voice, or say "Do you want to go to bed now?" Of COURSE Jimmie wants to color on the walls - who wouldn't!! All that big area that is just one blank color - looks like fun to me and I am in my 40s. Of COURSE he doesn't want to go to bed now - what kid would answer yes to that??? Well, other than Jess but she was such a strange child. Even with Jess you never knew if it was yes or no - if she was tired she said yes. husband used to ask idiot questions and then wonder what to do when the kids didn't think doing what he wanted was a good idea. I followed him around an entire week of his vacation when Wiz was 2 dealing with that stupid habit. No way was I dealing iwth fallout from that. husband was ready to choke me by the end of the week, but he could see why Wiz was a LOT more cooperative with me than with him.

I went to school with a kid who's mom wrote psychology textbooks for college classes. She also taught psychology. She believed in this type of idiotic "self expression" and that children shouldn't be "stifled" by society's expectations. I think some stifling is good for most of us - it lets us form communities. She raised her son with very minimal guidelines beyond good grades and he got massive rewards for that. Her husband was also a professor but he travelled most of the time by the time the kid could talk. This boy had such a tough time with ANY type of socialization. By high school he could put on a veneer but underneath just did not get it - and he was NOT on the autism spectrum in ANY way. He simply had no framework to really understand relationships. He is the one who thought he was dating the daughter of a state trooper (her dad) and my English teacher (her mom) and she spoke to him at lunch a couple of times - that was IT. It took those of us who worked in the darkroom with him on the yearbook and newspaper a year to figure out that she knew very very little of this "relationship" but he had thousands of photos of her, including many in her underwear or with nothing on taken through a window (they lived in the country, no neighbors, so she wasn't as careful about curtains - it happens here). When we finally realized what was going on (he was a year older than I am, she a year younger and no one I knew had classes with her), we went to the jr high and told her mom, and showed her some photos he had thrown away because they were not printed the way he wanted. The whole family was really shocked and scared, and he was incredibly confused.

THAT is what the kind of thing MWM is dealing with can create - and I do NOT think this kid would have had any problems more than any other teen if someone had just taken the time to teach him basic socialization when he was little. His mom has published papers about how she raised him - even called it an experiment - and her philosophies of child rearing. I won't say names and they are NOT well known because the psychologists I knew and the sociology profs I knew were all pretty horrified by it, esp as she did it on her own child and they knew the problems he had later in life.

This isn't new, it is just a re-tread of lunacy in child rearing. Sadly, if they can claim it is "evidence based" there is someone somewhere who will think it is a good idea.

And later we get to provide prisons and mental health care for these poor kids that might have been totally unnecessary.

 

[buddy]

Wouldn't you be upset if you knew your kid was biting someone or doing those other things... i mean I have lived with a kid who does stuff forever and I have never said, well just let it be... We try to correct and reduce and repair relationships.... Safety is important. I can't imagine. Do they at least tell the parents if this stuff is going on?

 

[BusynMember]

NO. This makes no sense. I remember you talking about this policy before.
If what the child is doing to express himself is creating a negative effect on the other kids, he needs to be removed. If he were expressing himself by wielding a knife, would you not be able to say "No"? Of course not.
Idjits.

The philosophy of the school and liberal social workers do not feel that masturbating is harmful to the other children. As for welding a knife, there is no chance of that happening...none at school. All eating utencels are plastic. They certainly don't say "no" when a child pokes another in the eye.

 

[BusynMember]

Even if we assume other kids wont notice or care... what about the HEALTH and germs issue?? Can they at least make him wash his hands every single time they catch him??

Holy heck.. potty germs on things and at that age kids put things in their mouths for pretend play or just because and YUCK!

Hygiene is good there. Kids are always washing their hands. They even have the kids brush their teeth.

 

[BusynMember]

Around here CPS can get involved if they think they are looking at verbal abuse or mental cruelty. To me, it is mental cruelty to allow children to grow up like wild animals without giving them any direction. If parents allowed their kids to do these things, they'd be in trouble. Why is it allowed in a school? Schools are supposed to teach children to live in this society. That one is not doing its job. As far as I'm concerned, what they're doing is criminal. They are taking money from the state and not doing the job as a school. How the he!! do these movements get started anyway? I feel sorry for these poor little kids who are learning there are no boundaries; when they go on to another school or the real world they are going to be in for a rude shock.

The CPS people who spoke to us before school started told us that they can't do ANYTHING about verbal abuse because...what is verbal abuse??? One person may think one thing, another something else. They were very, very adamant that they can only do something if a child is covered in bruises or has experienced proven sexual abuse. This confused me so I raised my hand and asked, "What if the parent keeps saying 'I hate you! You are a devil child and evil." I was told there was nothing they could do but offer parenting classes. I'm sure it varies in the US, but this is what they can do in our county of Wisconsin.

 

[BusynMember]

Wouldn't you be upset if you knew your kid was biting someone or doing those other things... i mean I have lived with a kid who does stuff forever and I have never said, well just let it be... We try to correct and reduce and repair relationships.... Safety is important. I can't imagine. Do they at least tell the parents if this stuff is going on?

We were told NOT to tell parents if the kids have had a bad day...not to even mention it. The reasonsing is, "We don't know if the parents will overreact if they hear that and maybe beat them. So we don't tell them what happens at school." So, at least those who work on the bus, never tell t he parents if anything has gone on, even a safety issue. I am not sure what the teachers do.

 

[buddy]

We were told NOT to tell parents if the kids have had a bad day...not to even mention it. The reasonsing is, "We don't know if the parents will overreact if they hear that and maybe beat them. So we don't tell them what happens at school." So, at least those who work on the bus, never tell t he parents if anything has gone on, even a safety issue. I am not sure what the teachers do.

Wow, The only the para professional staff can't say anything or were teachers and all of you told to not say anything??? That would insult me as a mom. Is it a school targeted for low income or high risk? Seems like if it is low income they are assuming that all low income folks act up toward their kids??? I hope that is not it. You must get so frustrated. I sure would. but at least you can model nice behavior and kindness yourselves so that is good for the kids.

 

[BusynMember]

Well, the school has a family liaison who works with all of the families and I believe there ARE some pretty unfit parents. But our school is supposed to be a safe haven for the kids (rather ironic in my opinion) and they want the kids to come to school and go home thinking that no matter w hat horrors are happening at home, The School is a safe, happy place to be. But, yes, I feel this is because many of the parents are very young, immature, and poorer. I don't like any of it, but it's not my call. Once these kids go to regular public school, they are in for a shock. There is no "conscious discipline" in public school and the parents are not spared the details of unruly kids!

 

[Hound dog]

You know what? Even their theory on low income / high risk is basically wrong. And not telling the parents if a child has had a bad day..........well, ahem, they'd better be glad I'm not one of those parents. Just because a child comes from a very low income home doesn't mean their parents aren't working their fannies off hoping to high heaven their child will have a better life and future. Ok, so I'm realistic enough to know that not all of them are that way, but I'm just as sure not all of them are neglecting their child or abusing them either.

Way back when, when Travis entered headstart in north dayton (for anyone who knows north dayton, that says it ALL) I guess you could say every child in his class fell into that category. The program then required that parents attend a weekly parenting meeting (they required more if they felt it was needed). They taught everything from good nutrition, hygiene, disciplining methods.....oh heck I can't remember what all because it was a LOT. Any parent who missed more than 2 their child was dismissed from the program. I met some fine parents at those meetings. I met some young kids/parents......some who didn't want to be bothered (they didn't last too long), but several others who while they phhted at it at first, were downright eager after a week or more to learn skills they didn't have. From feedback from teachers/staff, the neglectful lazy or abusive parents were a very small minority.

In class kids were taught the normal preschool stuff, but also taught hygiene, manners, diet.....tons of things you wouldn't normally see in a preschool setting. Everyone of the kids loved it. This was a trial curriculum and it turned out to be highly successful. Parents loved it. The kids loved it. At the kids "graduation" even grandparents were raving about it.

Which probably means it didn't stick around long. ugh

But if they're so worried about parents reacting to things going on/not going on in school, how about they sit down and think up solutions to improve that instead of having the kids basically run the show?

However, life experience has shown me that the really abused/neglected kids never make it to a preschool setting. I thought of several examples as I was typing that alone.

 

[DammitJanet]

I just went and read an entire article on this Conscious Discipline and I cant find anywhere in it does it say that these types of things should go on. In fact it subscribes to order and limits and structure. No I dont think it says you should use the word no but I didnt find anything in there that said you shouldnt because I didnt pay for the teachers manuals but it said that you can teach the child who is doing something in a wrong matter to do it in a correct manner. I would take that to mean that you could certainly take a child who was doing something naughty and redirect them and show them how to do it in the correct manner. In the case of the little boy who loves to stick his hand down his pants, I would simply tell him, Joey we dont do that in the class room, do you need to see the nurse? Or something along those lines. Or maybe tell him he needs to only do it at home. That seems in line with their teaching.

 

[TerryJ2]

"We don't know if the parents will overreact if they hear that and maybe beat them. So we don't tell them what happens at school."

OMG.

So, they are in essence warehousing the kids.

Don't know if you expected this type of response, MWM, but you've opened a can of worms on this board. Clearly, conscious discipline, at least used in this Wisc. setting, is the antithesis of my philosphy.

 

[BusynMember]

Janet, I could never find anything on coscieous discipline that you don't have to pay to read so I just hear what I'm told. I was told that if a child bops another kid on the head, we are to simply redirect. We CAN say, "That is NOT OK" and talk to the child, but we can't use the words "we don't" "you can't" "no" etc. For example, if children are running in the hallway, the teachers say, "Walking feet, friends" (they call the kids friends). If the kids still run, they can go on to say, "It is not safe. Use your walking feet." Of course, it doesn't work very often. The regular kids even try to get away with stuff. The difficult children are out of control. I aided in a class once and there were three kids who were hurting other kids. I asked the teacher if I could take Child 1 and put him in a chair away from the kids and she said, "We can NEVER take a child away from his peers for isolate him." I said, "So what can we do?" She sort of shrugged and said, "Just try to redirect him." I have never ever seen anything so worthless as a childcare program/philosophy.

The parents do have meetings at the school to learn "conscious discipline." I have no idea what that means. I never sat in on a meeting. They also teach nutrition and other life skills. What bothers me is that this school must believe that because these people are low income, they are not good parents. It seems that way to me, at least. I'm sure this is true of some of the kids, but not all. And there are plenty of crapola high income parents too.

You can't beat the price of free daycare. I think that's why some of the parents keep their kids here. On the other hand, I don't think most parents know exactly what goes on at school. But...it is not just this school. My sister is an aide in a Special Needs classroom in public school. The kids are very low functioning. She is also shocked at what goes on there, and she also is not allowed to talk to the parents because aides can't talk to parents. Only the teachers can do that. And the teacher wants herself and the school to look good, so she isn't going to be honest and say, "When Johnny goes to math with his aide, he doesn't learn anything. In fact, the aide has to do his work because he is too busy singing, making noise, and disrupting the class. He should be in a more restrictive setting." If she has less kids, they may decide the teacher doesn't need to be there and she wants her job.

If I were young and just starting out, but knew what I now know, my kids would go to a private school or, if I couldn't afford that, be homeschooled. We have no say in what goes on in our public schools. I always thought we did, but we don't even really know what goes on. My sis says they clean up their act and make everything look good when a parent is there. Sis works at a very high income school. Many of the parents are ashamed of their high needs kids and some don't spend any time with them, delegating their care to nannies. Not all of them, but a lot! They achieved, they expected their kids to achieve. Many can't handle it when they realize that their child will never achieve. Of course this is from my sister and is only her interpretation.

 

[susiestar]

I am TERRIFIED of your preschool!!! We have been low income at times in our life, but that NEVER meant that we abused our kids or didn't want the best for them!!! We sure as sugar didn't beat them for having a bad day! Who the H do these people think they are to figure if you tell a parent that Jimmie had a bad day then the parent will beat him? Total nutbars are setting policy for this school!!!

Conscious Discipline

THis is a site that has some of what our elem used a few yrs ago with their Conscious Discipline program. It was about getting kids to stop, think, and figure out how to solve the problem creating the aggression/inappropriate behavior. You can download the slides/handouts to read and it might help explain what the program really is. I found it interesting and the kids did respond if the teacher used the methods consistently and properly. MWM, they might give you an idea of what the school is wanting to do, but they will also frustrate you because there is NO WAY your school is doing this - they want to use the word as an excuse to let the kids run wild and not tell parents the truth.

MWM - I am glad you don't spend all day in the classroom. It would probably both drive you nuts and hurt you to see all those kids being harmed by this idiotic permissiveness. You care so much, and are such a sweet person and seeing this go on all over the place would be so painful.

I can't help but wonder how these kids will fare as adults - what % will end up in jail, in unhealthy relationship, in skilled or educated jobs, in their own happy family. I am sure that info won't ever be available, but if this was used in all schools in your area then I would be willing to bet you would have a significantly higher % of people who were less than productive citizens.

 

[DaisyFace]

I think that you've hit the nail on the head -

There is a PRESUMPTION that low-income families are IGNORANT and ABUSIVE....(because clearly, if they had any sense at all they'd be making a LOT more money.)

I think that is exactly the problem with some of these government programs. POOR = STUPID. Therefore, programs are designed at the "DUH" level....and if implementing techiniques designed for "DUH" doesn't work - well, it's because the parents are not cooperating.

Nobody is disiplining at the school because they think these POOR stupid kids are basically stuck in a cardboard box at home and fed table scraps - if their parents remember to feed them at all! Therefore, we need an environment where the kids can "escape" all that poverty and feel free to walk around and "just be themselves" without fear of beatings or verbal abuse.

And not to get political here - but when we hear politicians like Mitt Romney categorize $400,000 as "not much money"....it's no wonder that our government just DOES NOT GET IT!

One can be low-income and still be hard-working, honest, and keep a clean house.

 

[BusynMember]

Well, we meet all the kids and their parents before school starts. Some homes are clean. Some are filthy. Some of the moms have live-ins who change every month (same with dad). Some do drugs or drink too much. However...

This would be the same with high income, save for the filthy house if you can afford a maid.

I am appalled at the philosophy of this school. I know what the purpose of Conscious Discipline is, but, like everything else, it only works for "typical" kids and we have A LOT of difficult children with issues and special needs and it doesn't work for them. So after they "think", they are free to go back to grabbing toys that other kids had first, spitting at other kids, kicking, hitting, throwing things, swearing, potty talk (yes, we are not allowed to stifle language) etc.

I don't think this school will have a huge affect on the kids overall because once they go to regular school they have to learn fast that there are rules and consequences...most schools are very hard on violence. But this makes me wonder about our entire public school system. Along with what my sister has told me, I have a feeling that we have no idea what kind of experience our kids really have at school. They let us know what they want us to know unless our kids spill the beans.

 

[keista]

OH. MY. WORD!

It sounds to me as if this school wants to implement Conscious Discipline, but is failing miserably.

I found the same website Susiestar posted, but landed on a page with printouts that are very preschool geared. Conscious Discipline Printable Posters

I'm wondering if CPS ever sees how the school actually handles things? If CPS is told that the school is using Conscious Discipline, they may think "Alright! Excellent program!" BUT the reality of what the school is implementing is far from that excellent program.

I know the economy is tough and you need this job, but if it were me, I'd be actively looking for a new one. Just hang around as long as you must.

((((HUGS)))) It cannot be easy to be forced to turn a blind eye.

PS The other thing that kept running through my mind was what would happen if a child decided to "express him/herself" with a chair up against another child's head? (I really was thinking baseball bat, but since it's such an obvious weapon, I hope there are none) My heart really aches for these kids.

 

[Ktllc]

OH MY!! Are you talking about V's school????
I am serious you are describing it fairly well.
Assumption that poor = idiot, uneducated, dirty, unfit... YES!! And it drives me nuts.
The parents meeting: I don't even go anymore. Just plain tired of listening to them teaching me how to wash my hands or telling that I need to talk to my kids if I want them to be ready for school. Seems completly idiotic, but that really what is going during those meetings.
Am I poor: yes, we went through very hard times (getting a lot better though lol). But it does not make me less of a mother.
They judge parental involvement by the # of meetings we attend. How about the hours of therapy, doctors visits, books read and crying in order to help my special need child?? That: they can't help.
Do they tell you about bad days? NO. Everything is always fine.
V finally stood up to his bully by calming saying "stop. You're not my friend". Guess what the teacher said "we are all friends". I was fuming when I confronted her the next day.
Why do I keep my child there: I think it would do more harm to change him again. The transition would be too hard and the other option is not that great anyway (for special need).
Will Sweet Pea go there: NO WAY. I might be poor, but I'd rather keep her home. Those people did not get it when I explained that a baby should stay with her mother and not go to school if possible. They tend to think that their school is better for infants than parents!! And I'm talking about 6weeks old... that should be a no brainer, but not for them.

 

[buddy]

Oh what a good point... add up all the hours of things you do.... To think a baby would be better off in daycare than bonding with a parent??? wow, that is arrogance.

Keista, I was thinking of the first time Q hurt a kid in preschool. He generally just walked around the room... didn't do much really. but he was playing with blocks and got upset his blocks would not work and he threw one... it landed across the room on a kids head (poor kid couldnt throw to actually try to hit anything..but he sure has an arm for smashing us if he is just wildly pitching!) I would have been SOOO ticked if no one had told me. I get it that it was a Special Education class, not on purpose etc... but if they had let him keep the blocks and not had given him the logical consequence for that... well I would have been very upset. This kid had to go to the hospital to get a stitch! Yeah, no matter the age, they MUST do something... Q has a right to try to reach his potential. It is a balance but I do think we have to give him a chance to try to do better.... to beat him down for things he truly can't control is one thing but to work to teach to do better to understand other's feelings and to have a consequence for behaviors we think he can modify over time... he has that same right as any kid to try to learn.