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He's back. I am sad.
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<blockquote data-quote="Copabanana" data-source="post: 689387" data-attributes="member: 18958"><p>I feel sad.</p><p></p><p>Yesterday there was a "situation" with M and my son that ended up consuming the whole day and night.</p><p></p><p>M is a very careful and disciplined person about most everything. Especially the care of the animals. My son opened the front door and some discussion ensued with M. Stella the cat sauntered outside. She is not allowed outside.</p><p></p><p>M (from Mx) does not have the same attitude towards animals. My son perceived M as manhandling the cat. He reacted, raised his voice, and went to the refrigerator and banged his head against it. *Logical, right? Then my son stormed out of the house.</p><p></p><p>A visibly upset M came in to the bedroom and told me what happened. More or less.</p><p></p><p>Later I went by the house where my son is staying, to see if he was alright. When he began to tell me what happened, in a dramatic voice, I interrupted him and said:</p><p></p><p><em>I do not want you to talk behind M's back about him. If you have anything to say to him say it directly to him like an adult. I do not care what he did or did not do. That is between him and I, and I will keep it there. Speak to him directly, and not to me.</em></p><p></p><p><em>If you feel his behavior is wrong or needs correcting tell him. </em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>Whatever it is he did, however wrong you may feel it is, he has our loyalty and our gratitude. I will handle my own responsibilities towards him, Stella and you directly with M, not behind his back.</em></p><p></p><p>My son said he accepted this.</p><p></p><p><em>Do you want me to ask M if it is OK with him that you come home for another night?</em> (Big mistake but I was missing him, and he was complaining about lack of stimulation in the environment where he was.)</p><p></p><p>Son: <em>He is mad at me. I don't think he likes me. </em></p><p><em>I don't think he will want me to come another night.</em></p><p></p><p>Me: <em>We will go over where he is working and you can tell him what ever you feel like, and we will see if it is OK.</em></p><p></p><p>My son apologized to him for his part. M was gracious and warm. I stayed an hour chatting with the friends who M was helping by doing some plumbing. My son was warm and appropriate. We all went home and I was happy (for a few minutes.)</p><p></p><p>Let me say this: I do not think it is wise to let my son too close in. I think it empowers him. I think he lets his guard down, and begins to dominate the space and subtly tries to dominate us. (He is good.)</p><p></p><p>At some point I asked my son if he wanted Stella to stay with him. He said yes, and that he would be extremely careful about the door. (Until a year ago my son was defiant about Stella's feline rights, to be outside with diversions and fresh air--he does not mention the hawks and the eagles and the dogs. Let alone we have had a cat die of rat poisoning.)</p><p></p><p>Alone I asked M what he thought about Stella going with my son, and he replied, <em>"Do you want to see her dead on the street?"</em> *My son is indifferent about leaving the door wide open.</p><p></p><p>M and I were in the bedroom reading. I had been thinking about Stella, how I had to speak up. While Stella was fine, I did not want to feel about myself that I would keep quiet and not advocate for her. Most of all I make it a practice to speak up if something is bothering me or I am anxious about some matter that involves M, so as to not sit with it. You see, M gets defensive, and he can be hard. If you say 3 word, he can blow you away like a cannon. That is how it feels.</p><p></p><p>At some point I spoke up to M. M, <em>I am uncomfortable too about Stella being treated harshly.</em></p><p></p><p><em>OK, Fine. I will let her go outside no problem. That is what you want. Son is gossiping to you. I knew he would. I told you about it first.</em></p><p></p><p><em>No. I do not want that. But we need, all of us, to treat her gently. Even though you told me, does not make it right if she was not treated kindly. When she escapes I call her or chase her and catch her. </em></p><p></p><p>M was mad.</p><p></p><p><em>This is about son he was gossiping to you about me.</em></p><p></p><p><em>Yes. He tried to and I would not allow it. But you see I have feelings about Stella being treated gently, too. You do not want that I not feel free to talk to you directly about whatever is bothering me. Do you?</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>No. </em></p><p></p><p><em>Then we have to be able to talk openly, the three of us.</em></p><p></p><p>He had calmed down. M son was lurking outside the room and we told him to come in.</p><p></p><p>The gist of what was said is this: M told my son: <em>if you need to say something to me, tell me directly. You do not need to gossip to your mother. Whatever it is I will hear you. You are not a child. We can talk man to man. I will take responsibility for my behavior and you need to take responsibility for your own.</em></p><p></p><p>Me: <em>You are hard, sometimes, and defensive.</em></p><p></p><p>M: <em>Yes, I am hard. I am direct, too. I know it is hard. I have a daughter that will not talk to me. I know I am too hard. But I want the best for you and I want the best for your mother.</em></p><p></p><p><em>Son, when I find that you are doing things that will upset your mother, and want her to throw you out, do I tell her, or do I keep it between us? </em></p><p></p><p>My son tried to deny it.</p><p></p><p>M: <em>What about the marijuana, those times? There are some things that are between men. I want the best for you and for you to change for the better. My responsibility is to educate you so that you will learn how to work and to live. </em></p><p></p><p>M agreed that Stella could go to stay with my son for a trial basis before I go back to work, so that I can oversee how it is going (and now I am afraid.) So things were smoothed over.</p><p></p><p>Until I looked at my $3000 refrigerator with the dents in it.</p><p></p><p>My son replied. <em>I will pay for it. I will give you all of my next SSI check. (always his solution) </em></p><p></p><p><em>What about taking responsibility for your behavior? How can you be justified in complaining about M when the next minute you did this?</em></p><p></p><p><em>Everybody is responsible for their behavior. You are too.</em></p><p></p><p>The moment before he had told me that he called the motel where he had lived free for 2 years plus, where the owner (a mutual friend) had enabled him to do what he wanted without responsibility or accountability. Four years later the guy finally had his fill of my son and now when my son goes there, even paying for a room, the owner is unfriendly, rejecting and barely tolerates him.</p><p></p><p>My son left a message like this: Mc. <em>You may not like this message but I need you to hear it. I could not but see your negative attitude towards me when I came to the motel, even though I offered to pay. I can see how you feel about me now and I understand I have burnt my bridges with you. That even though I will pay more money next time, you do not want me at the motel. I am sorry it has come to this, but given your attitude towards me I have no choice but to not come.</em></p><p></p><p>I mean: This is a multi-million dollar operation. In a tourist city, this hotel is in the top tier. This owner is my age!!</p><p></p><p>My son is acting like the owner is the bad guy. Like my son is making him responsible<em> for his bad behavior.</em></p><p></p><p>I told my son.<em> Don't you understand? People when they help you expect something back. They expect you to prosper and they expect that if they give you a hand up, you will begin to climb. They do not want to keep being used. Especially when they realize that the help they are giving is helping you to either disrespect them or others.</em></p><p></p><p><em>You can repair the relationships (hotel owner and the Brazilian father) easily, I believe, but it will take some work.</em></p><p></p><p><em>Concentrate on yourself. Get a job. Go back to school, if you want. Make a nice place to live. Get some therapy. Get a handle on your life. Grow up. Take responsibility.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>Write a letter, asking for nothing. If they do not answer, write again. Tell them that what you have learned. Tell them what you gained from each of them, and how you learned and changed. Ask them for nothing ever again. Ask them to visit. Be patient if it takes time. They owe you nothing. It is you who owes them. If they want you to stay away, learn. Accept that there are costs to learning. And we have to accept them. Show that you have prospered and benefited from their friendship for you. That needs to be enough. Sometimes.</em></p><p></p><p>I said to M yesterday. My son is not getting it. He is not learning. M agreed.</p><p><em></em></p><p><em>I feel so sad. </em></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Copabanana, post: 689387, member: 18958"] I feel sad. Yesterday there was a "situation" with M and my son that ended up consuming the whole day and night. M is a very careful and disciplined person about most everything. Especially the care of the animals. My son opened the front door and some discussion ensued with M. Stella the cat sauntered outside. She is not allowed outside. M (from Mx) does not have the same attitude towards animals. My son perceived M as manhandling the cat. He reacted, raised his voice, and went to the refrigerator and banged his head against it. *Logical, right? Then my son stormed out of the house. A visibly upset M came in to the bedroom and told me what happened. More or less. Later I went by the house where my son is staying, to see if he was alright. When he began to tell me what happened, in a dramatic voice, I interrupted him and said: [I]I do not want you to talk behind M's back about him. If you have anything to say to him say it directly to him like an adult. I do not care what he did or did not do. That is between him and I, and I will keep it there. Speak to him directly, and not to me.[/I] [I]If you feel his behavior is wrong or needs correcting tell him. Whatever it is he did, however wrong you may feel it is, he has our loyalty and our gratitude. I will handle my own responsibilities towards him, Stella and you directly with M, not behind his back.[/I] My son said he accepted this. [I]Do you want me to ask M if it is OK with him that you come home for another night?[/I] (Big mistake but I was missing him, and he was complaining about lack of stimulation in the environment where he was.) Son: [I]He is mad at me. I don't think he likes me. I don't think he will want me to come another night.[/I] Me: [I]We will go over where he is working and you can tell him what ever you feel like, and we will see if it is OK.[/I] My son apologized to him for his part. M was gracious and warm. I stayed an hour chatting with the friends who M was helping by doing some plumbing. My son was warm and appropriate. We all went home and I was happy (for a few minutes.) Let me say this: I do not think it is wise to let my son too close in. I think it empowers him. I think he lets his guard down, and begins to dominate the space and subtly tries to dominate us. (He is good.) At some point I asked my son if he wanted Stella to stay with him. He said yes, and that he would be extremely careful about the door. (Until a year ago my son was defiant about Stella's feline rights, to be outside with diversions and fresh air--he does not mention the hawks and the eagles and the dogs. Let alone we have had a cat die of rat poisoning.) Alone I asked M what he thought about Stella going with my son, and he replied, [I]"Do you want to see her dead on the street?"[/I] *My son is indifferent about leaving the door wide open. M and I were in the bedroom reading. I had been thinking about Stella, how I had to speak up. While Stella was fine, I did not want to feel about myself that I would keep quiet and not advocate for her. Most of all I make it a practice to speak up if something is bothering me or I am anxious about some matter that involves M, so as to not sit with it. You see, M gets defensive, and he can be hard. If you say 3 word, he can blow you away like a cannon. That is how it feels. At some point I spoke up to M. M, [I]I am uncomfortable too about Stella being treated harshly.[/I] [I]OK, Fine. I will let her go outside no problem. That is what you want. Son is gossiping to you. I knew he would. I told you about it first.[/I] [I]No. I do not want that. But we need, all of us, to treat her gently. Even though you told me, does not make it right if she was not treated kindly. When she escapes I call her or chase her and catch her. [/I] M was mad. [I]This is about son he was gossiping to you about me.[/I] [I]Yes. He tried to and I would not allow it. But you see I have feelings about Stella being treated gently, too. You do not want that I not feel free to talk to you directly about whatever is bothering me. Do you? No. [/I] [I]Then we have to be able to talk openly, the three of us.[/I] He had calmed down. M son was lurking outside the room and we told him to come in. The gist of what was said is this: M told my son: [I]if you need to say something to me, tell me directly. You do not need to gossip to your mother. Whatever it is I will hear you. You are not a child. We can talk man to man. I will take responsibility for my behavior and you need to take responsibility for your own.[/I] Me: [I]You are hard, sometimes, and defensive.[/I] M: [I]Yes, I am hard. I am direct, too. I know it is hard. I have a daughter that will not talk to me. I know I am too hard. But I want the best for you and I want the best for your mother.[/I] [I]Son, when I find that you are doing things that will upset your mother, and want her to throw you out, do I tell her, or do I keep it between us? [/I] My son tried to deny it. M: [I]What about the marijuana, those times? There are some things that are between men. I want the best for you and for you to change for the better. My responsibility is to educate you so that you will learn how to work and to live. [/I] M agreed that Stella could go to stay with my son for a trial basis before I go back to work, so that I can oversee how it is going (and now I am afraid.) So things were smoothed over. Until I looked at my $3000 refrigerator with the dents in it. My son replied. [I]I will pay for it. I will give you all of my next SSI check. (always his solution) [/I] [I]What about taking responsibility for your behavior? How can you be justified in complaining about M when the next minute you did this?[/I] [I]Everybody is responsible for their behavior. You are too.[/I] The moment before he had told me that he called the motel where he had lived free for 2 years plus, where the owner (a mutual friend) had enabled him to do what he wanted without responsibility or accountability. Four years later the guy finally had his fill of my son and now when my son goes there, even paying for a room, the owner is unfriendly, rejecting and barely tolerates him. My son left a message like this: Mc. [I]You may not like this message but I need you to hear it. I could not but see your negative attitude towards me when I came to the motel, even though I offered to pay. I can see how you feel about me now and I understand I have burnt my bridges with you. That even though I will pay more money next time, you do not want me at the motel. I am sorry it has come to this, but given your attitude towards me I have no choice but to not come.[/I] I mean: This is a multi-million dollar operation. In a tourist city, this hotel is in the top tier. This owner is my age!! My son is acting like the owner is the bad guy. Like my son is making him responsible[I] for his bad behavior.[/I] I told my son.[I] Don't you understand? People when they help you expect something back. They expect you to prosper and they expect that if they give you a hand up, you will begin to climb. They do not want to keep being used. Especially when they realize that the help they are giving is helping you to either disrespect them or others.[/I] [I]You can repair the relationships (hotel owner and the Brazilian father) easily, I believe, but it will take some work.[/I] [I]Concentrate on yourself. Get a job. Go back to school, if you want. Make a nice place to live. Get some therapy. Get a handle on your life. Grow up. Take responsibility. Write a letter, asking for nothing. If they do not answer, write again. Tell them that what you have learned. Tell them what you gained from each of them, and how you learned and changed. Ask them for nothing ever again. Ask them to visit. Be patient if it takes time. They owe you nothing. It is you who owes them. If they want you to stay away, learn. Accept that there are costs to learning. And we have to accept them. Show that you have prospered and benefited from their friendship for you. That needs to be enough. Sometimes.[/I] I said to M yesterday. My son is not getting it. He is not learning. M agreed. [I] I feel so sad. [/I] [/QUOTE]
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